Terminator Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Reese could only identify the T-800 after he saw it in person, after which point he recognised it was a model 101 (Arnie). To have known this specific detail he had to have seen an assembly line or previously encountered it in the field of battle in 2029. Now if that meant he somehow was able to remember what every other model number would look like is something I wonder about...

Yup.

Then again, you could say that the 101 is impractical for infiltration purposes anyway. If the original Terminator had Lance Henriksen in the title role with the T-800 being this unassuming, average, every day looking guy, then I could see the "T1 purist's" point. That didn't happen though, we got massive body builders with thick accents (save for Robert Patrick, who actually made sense). Not very practical for machines that want to blend in with a community.

If they can look into T2 and try to tear it apart when it comes to it's fidelity to the first film, then they best tear T1 apart for the same exact reasons. I always laugh at the people that try and claim that the first film is some self-contained story that will go into an infinite loop and that T2 just simply can't happen. Uhhhhhh, the very fact that time travel and Kyle Reese are involved (Kyle Reese, someone being born after his son) means that there isn't a self-contained story or "infinite loop" at play here. Before the events of the original Terminator that we all know and love, there HAD to be a different timeline where John had a different father and Skynet was created/thought up before ever dabbling with time travel or endoskeletons. Since that's the case, the ending with Sarah Connor riding off into the mountains is definitely open to interpretation. T2 delivers.

For a sequel, T2 is more than faithful to the original, UNLIKE all the other sequels. That's why I get such a kick out of these arguments. What "T1 purist" wouldn't get a kick out of the FBI guys laying down the 1984 Police shootout photos next to the "present day" Galleria photos? What "T1 purist" wouldn't love seeing that original T1 arm and chip in the RND lab at Cyberdyne? Or Sarah Connor's paranoia? Or people thinking/confusing that this second Terminator is simply a man wanted for the murder of all those police back in 1984? It boggles my mind. T2 is like the perfect sequel, unless of course these folks didn't want a sequel to be made. If that's the case, what's stopping people from having the mindset of "meh, why did Cameron bother making the first Terminator at all?"

When I look back at notes and interviews (most notably that fantastic Terminator vault book that only contains the Terminator films that matter) and I see an early 80s Cameron thinking about a "liquid mercury man assassin" that can't be done due to technical and budgetary reasons. When I see deleted scenes from 1984 that DEAL with the same story threads that T2 evolve around (like Sarah wanting to blow up computer factories with Kyle to prevent Judgement Day, or the Cyberdyne systems reveal), I can't help but question the stubbornness that these "purists" have. It's ludicrous. Someone that likes T1 should like T2 just as much, and vice versa. It's not like T2 is a frickin' George Lucas prequel movie, or a Joel Schumacher movie, or TDKR, or Spider-Man 3, or a Godfather 3 or an X-Men.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Nah, Reese was just trying to sound like he knew what he was talking about so he could score with Sarah. All the details were ********.

He did give her a bunch of superfluous details she did not need to know about. His exact rank and number, the name of his commander, the Terminator's number designation, the T-600 mention - all utterly meaningless to anyone in 1984.

It's also funny that he just comes straight out with the truth to the police.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Goddamn, the whole thing is ridiculous and full of holes, but then this is why I question the T1 elitism and why T2, even though regarded by some of the same guys as a very good film, gets discounted as canon. Since its all so silly why can't 2 good films at least be taken together as one and just leave out the crappy films. T3 and T4 are crappy, they made no emotional connection to audiences like T1 and T2 did, first and foremost, and beyond that they were also rife with inconsistencies.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Goddamn, the whole thing is ridiculous and full of holes, but then this is why I question the T1 elitism and why T2, even though regarded by the same guys (except maybe P.) as a very good film, gets discounted as canon. Since its all so silly why can't 2 good films at least be taken together as one and just leave out the crappy films. T3 and T4 are crappy, they made no emotional connection to audiences like T1 and T2 did.

That's why you and me are always involved in these things.

I don't get it either. T1 by itself doesn't "make sense" any more than T1+T2 does. The very fact that time travel is involved is proof of this.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Goddamn, the whole thing is ridiculous and full of holes, but then this is why I question the T1 elitism and why T2, even though regarded by some of the same guys as a very good film, gets discounted as canon. Since its all so silly why can't 2 good films at least be taken together as one and just leave out the crappy films. T3 and T4 are crappy, they made no emotional connection to audiences like T1 and T2 did.

Bottom line, the first film is some self-contained story that will go into an infinite loop and T2 just simply can't happen. Case closed.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

I think one thing you guys aren't remembering, is that Cameron came up with this whole thing while he was bed ridden in Rome with a near fatal fever.

How can any of this be argued to a logical conclusion, when he was delirious when he dreamed it up.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

The best art is often the result of altered states of thinking, whether that be drugs, mental illness, or physical ailments.

The worst art (Star Wars prequels) may often be attributed to the same

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Of course man..

Lucas? He's a straighty 180 though isn't he?

No blue milk, death sticks or Jawa juice for him.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Yeah, tell me blue milk is the product of a sober mind.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

That's why you and me are always involved in these things.

I don't get it either. T1 by itself doesn't "make sense" any more than T1+T2 does. The very fact that time travel is involved is proof of this.

The war between the T1ers and the T2ers had raged for decades...but the final battle would not be fought in the future etc etc etc

Bottom line, the first film is some self-contained story that will go into an infinite loop and T2 just simply can't happen. Case closed.

Only because you've arbitrarily decided it is. There are easy ways to count T2 in. As Difabio said, sure, as far as Reese knew it was just him and the T1 T-800 and the resistance were gonna then blow the place up after they sent him to the past. But perhaps only after he was already gone did they discover the second time incursion with the T-1000. Therefore the events of T2 happen aswell. Does that seem like an all too convenient ret-con so as to go back to the money well? Sure, if you wanna have a cynical attitude about it. I don't think it gives the resulting film due credit though. The film ended up being damned good. No harm no foul.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Yeah, tell me blue milk is the product of a sober mind.

It wasn't that so much.. it was more Spielberg telling him 'I love it' every step of the way.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

I always laugh at the people that try and claim that the first film is some self-contained story that will go into an infinite loop and that T2 just simply can't happen.

Bottom line, the first film is some self-contained story that will go into an infinite loop and T2 just simply can't happen. Case closed.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

You don't get to say that "tonight" means it took place when Sarah flattens the T-800 then say the battle "lasted two or three days".

Point is, it means nothing. Especially when the title says "our" present. That opening text is just a fancy way of getting the audience into the story, the equivalence of Sarah Connor's opening monologue in T2.

So the because it used some poetic flourish with regard to the word "tonight" the whole opening text means nothing. No machines rising from nuclear fire, no war that raged for decades, no machines trying to exterminate mankind. All because "tonight" makes it confusing as to whether they mean May 12th, 1984 (when Arnold appeared), May 14th 1984 (when Arnold was destroyed) or if it means the 12th-14th collectively. Yeah, no. The opening text is a part of the movie and if it's somewhat confusing in one part then it's somewhat confusing in that one part. It doesn't mean they opened the film with utter nonsense.

Yes I do. He's uncertain when he states the "one possible future", he doesn't know "tech stuff", remember? The line of it just being him and the Terminator, is naive. Why? Because moments after Reese is sent through, Connor sent the T-800 in pursuit of the T-1000. Reese doesn't know it, how could he? That wasn't his mission.

No, that did NOT happen "moments after Reese is sent through." That is never stated in T1. Ever. "But that's because it wasn't necessary for Reese to know." BS. If Connor had a childhood memory of a terrifying T1000 chasing him and he is sending someone back to not only protect his mother but to also give her messages that is a pretty BIG one to ignore. Why would he simply tell Reese to tell her about "being stronger than she thinks she could be" or whatever and NOT drop hints about oh I don't know, "make sure you're near a steel mill in 1994." Remember, John would have had the memory of what happened in 1994 *before* he sent Reese. He had some info he wanted Reese to pass on to her. I just don't buy that he'd omit that huge bit.

CSM-101 is the Arnold skin. CSM-099 and CSM-102 look like someone else.

That is never stated on film. Reese called Arnold a 101 series but we have no idea why. If he knew Terminators by face (and could link them to their model number on that alone) then he wouldn't have had to wait for Arnold to "zero" on her and cut it so close by letting him draw his gun. He could have just looked for Arnold or Franco or any other model number that he obviously would have already known in advance. I think the "model 101" bit was just some indicator as to it's size or advancement or something. Maybe the "tank infiltrators" are 101, but they don't all have to look the same. Reese was very specific about the sweat, bad breath, dog sniffing, etc., being major elements with the new Terminators. He was spouting off so much useless info about future tech and whatnot that I don't buy that he just happened to omit "oh yeah, and half of these things look the same."

 

[EVILFACE]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

That's something I've never quite understood about T2. How the **** did the T1000 make it through? And don't feed me that "it's living metal, bro!" BS.

It's just a movie.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Only because you've arbitrarily decided it is. There are easy ways to count T2 in.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

It's just a movie.

Nah man, it actually happened! Look at the opening text above.


I want to know how Cameron and Co. shot all this great documentary footage without getting hurt or spotted by the authorities or the Terminator.

 

[EVILFACE]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

Cameron is good buddies with cyborgs and nine foot tall blue chicks.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

No, that did NOT happen "moments after Reese is sent through." That is never stated in T1. Ever. "But that's because it wasn't necessary for Reese to know." BS. If Connor had a childhood memory of a terrifying T1000 chasing him and he is sending someone back to not only protect his mother but to also give her messages that is a pretty BIG one to ignore. Why would he simply tell Reese to tell her about "being stronger than she thinks she could be" or whatever and NOT drop hints about oh I don't know, "make sure you're near a steel mill in 1994." Remember, John would have had the memory of what happened in 1994 *before* he sent Reese. He had some info he wanted Reese to pass on to her. I just don't buy that he'd omit that huge bit.

You've reminded me of some things I hadn't considered. In T1, Reese says ''John gave me a picture of you once. I didn't know why at the time'' - so yes John does know when he gives Kyle that picture that he's gonna have to send Kyle to 1984 to fight a T-800. He knows this because Sarah told him all about it via those tapes or whatever. Thus there is a loop there, OK.

But yes, there remains the question that even if the same Connor of 2029 did know in advance that he was also going to have to deal with the T-1000 threat, there really would have been no need to tell Reese. Why is that BS? He knew Reese wouldn't even be around for it and that he was going to deal with it by another means with the captured T-800. Reese really wouldn't need to know about that. If that is to be debated you might aswell also debate why John doesn't tell him the exact circumstances of the battle in 1984 so that Reese and Sarah will know exactly what to expect and how to avoid Reese's death....actually **** why didn't Connor do that??! He could have saved his dad.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

So the because it used some poetic flourish with regard to the word "tonight" the whole opening text means nothing. No machines rising from nuclear fire, no war that raged for decades, no machines trying to exterminate mankind. All because "tonight" makes it confusing as to whether they mean May 12th, 1984 (when Arnold appeared), May 14th 1984 (when Arnold was destroyed) or if it means the 12th-14th collectively. Yeah, no. The opening text is a part of the movie and if it's somewhat confusing in one part then it's somewhat confusing in that one part. It doesn't mean they opened the film with utter nonsense.

And "our".

It's a pretty silly opening (other than the image of the war going on in the background) when you really think about it. It looks like the opening intro to something in an old Nintendo or Sega game.

No, that did NOT happen "moments after Reese is sent through." That is never stated in T1. Ever. "But that's because it wasn't necessary for Reese to know." BS. If Connor had a childhood memory of a terrifying T1000 chasing him and he is sending someone back to not only protect his mother but to also give her messages that is a pretty BIG one to ignore. Why would he simply tell Reese to tell her about "being stronger than she thinks she could be" or whatever and NOT drop hints about oh I don't know, "make sure you're near a steel mill in 1994." Remember, John would have had the memory of what happened in 1994 *before* he sent Reese. He had some info he wanted Reese to pass on to her. I just don't buy that he'd omit that huge bit.



That is never stated on film. Reese called Arnold a 101 series but we have no idea why. If he knew Terminators by face (and could link them to their model number on that alone) then he wouldn't have had to wait for Arnold to "zero" on her and cut it so close by letting him draw his gun. He could have just looked for Arnold or Franco or any other model number that he obviously would have already known in advance. I think the "model 101" bit was just some indicator as to it's size or advancement or something. Maybe the "tank infiltrators" are 101, but they don't all have to look the same. Reese was very specific about the sweat, bad breath, dog sniffing, etc., being major elements with the new Terminators. He was spouting off so much useless info about future tech and whatnot that I don't buy that he just happened to omit "oh yeah, and half of these things look the same."

Okay, so you're playing the "since it's never stated in the film . . . it didn't happen" card. Well if we're not able to fill in little bits ourselves (movie magic/suspension of disbelief basically), then the whole SERIES is stupid, not just the sequels.




- How is Reese John's father in the first place outside of the movie I'm watching if T1 is "self contained"? The movie never tells me. It's physically impossible and Cameron and Wisher never explain it. This story is ludicrous and sucks balls.

- If Reese was sent time travelling after the Terminator, wouldn't that mean that John Connor already "lost"?

- If I disregard the above and Reese could be sent at any time after the T-800 is sent back (minutes, hours, days, whatever), should it even matter to John that he doesn't exist in an alternate timeline? Why would he care if he hypothetically dies someplace else? That ties into Skynet's existence too. If Skynet is defeated/shutdown/defense grid smashed, whatever, why the hell does it care if it happens to live on in an alternate time line? Why would it care? It ain't the same Skynet.

- Why send a big boy with a peculiar Austrian accent as the infiltrating assassin instead of an unassuming looking dude? Why the **** would Skynet give it that accent in modern day LA?

- Why wouldn't Skynet send multiple Terminators to different points of time to kill John Connor?

- Why would Sarah not try and prevent Judgment Day when she knows what she knows? Hiding in the mountains for the rest of your life doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genesis (July 1st, 2015)

If that is to be debated you might aswell also debate why John doesn't tell him the exact circumstances of the battle in 1984 so that Reese and Sarah will know exactly what to expect and how to avoid Reese's death....actually **** why didn't Connor do that??! He could have saved his dad.

Actually I've just thought of why John wouldn't do this. But I aint tellin'. I'll see if you get it. Maybe its obvious.