Future of DC Films (DCEU)

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Yeah, the performances are great. Comparing the MCU to Snyder's DCEU is like comparing A New Hope to The Empire Strikes Back. In ESB or Snyder's films, you get a darker movie in both tone and imagery, more tragic plot elements, less comedic banter and comic relief, deeper themes and emotions, and stronger acting. ANH and the MCU are much lighter in tone, more humorous, with less of a sense of danger, less intense acting, and usually pure happy endings. It's the difference between a fun roller coaster ride romp and a deep dive into an intense, dramatic and epic odyssey.
 
Going through this thread just put me in the mood to watch the BvS UE. And what a fine movie it is. I really do like it more then ZSJL. It's such a freaking epic movie. Of course, it does have its faults, but it is glorious.
One thing I hadn't quite picked up on was the parallels between how Clark sees Batman and how Superman is framed/accused. When Clark meets the wife of the guy Batman branded she asks him "one man decides who lives, how is that justice?", echoing what the woman from the African village asks in the Congress hearings about how Superman decides who lives.
And I wonder if the references to Excalibur are about how Arthur lost his way/his soul and it wasn't until Gawain made him understand that he and the Land were one, and that echoes how Batman has lost his way, and needs a "pure Knight" to show him the way again.
Also, I think Snyder's a pretty good actor's director, he certainly gets great stuff from all three (Affleck, Cavill, Gadot).

For whatever it’s worth, I enjoy BvS more than ZSJL as well. There’s just so much to dig through and unearth in it, and the examples you give are excellent.

Things like at the very start of the film, in the prologue’s voiced over narration scene flashing back to Bruce’s parents’ murder visually speaking it’s chockfull of “falling” imagery, e.g., snow flakes, sparks, Thomas collapsing after being shot, the bullets casings bouncing on the pavement, Martha’s pearls, her life leaving her through her eyes, etc. And the message of the dialogue is of course the same.

The “falling” metaphor represents that the character concept when honestly placed in the real world—which is what deconstruction does—Batman… well, almost by definition, really if this is undertaken in good faith… must “fall” from the ideal plane of the comics, i.e., those ideals are ”perfect things, diamond absolutes.” But as Bruce notes, “things fall, things on earth… and what falls is fallen.”

This is counterintuitive: but from a purely artistic perspective the goal of this is to upset many people! (Not from a business standpoint of course!) That is exactly what a deconstruction should do. I have zero doubt that strictly as an artist, as an auteur, Snyder knew full well that this deconstruction would powerfully disturb, even anger, many fans. But he wants us to examine what the characters mean to us in real life psychologically as a symbol, and to think independently about that, and discuss and debate it. That’s the effect that Alan Moore wanted his comic run Watchmen to have on readers, and Snyder applies the same project to Batman and Superman in this film.

I’ve never undertaken it, or seen it done by anyone, but I’d love for some You Tuber out there to comb through BvS for possible references to Excalibur and point them all out.

One thing many have noticed is that there’s a kind of bookend sort of mirroring of themes, often conveyed through visual imagery but also in terms of concepts as well, throughout the movie. One example is the bullet casings bounce off the ground in the prologue and the 21 gun salute canon casings bounce as well at Superman’s funeral. @abake noted the mirroring of Batman’s morally problematic vigilantism and Superman’s independent use of his superpowers (especially when it impacts geopolitics on the world stage) is also morally problematic. In the Watchmen 12 comic run/graphic novel, there is an chapter dedicated to Rorschach titled “Fearful Symmetry” (note that the test’s inkblots have bilateral symmetry). There’s an excellent YT analysis series by Cartoonist Kayfabe where those two artists break down Watchmen in terms of comic book craftsmanship, and they point out that not only the chapter (positioned in the middle of the run) is composed that way, but it is also repeated and echoed all throughout the entire run. I think Zack Snyder did something very similar with BvS! I’d love to see a YT analysis of that one day by someone.

Anyway, imo BvS will be analyzed in film studies classes for many years to come. I recently heard… people are saying it although I have not seen the source…. That David Zaslav has referred to BvS as a “masterpiece.” When I first heard this I wondered if it was just some people taking the LA Times article that WBD reportedly vetted for publication that describes BvS as an “epic” and embellishing that. But anyway, hopefully Mr. Zaslav does enjoy and respect the movie for all the right reasons, and wants to help rehabilitate it’s public image!
 
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Yeah, the performances are great. Comparing the MCU to Snyder's DCEU is like comparing A New Hope to The Empire Strikes Back. In ESB or Snyder's films, you get a darker movie in both tone and imagery, more tragic plot elements, less comedic banter and comic relief, deeper themes and emotions, and stronger acting. ANH and the MCU are much lighter in tone, more humorous, with less of a sense of danger, less intense acting, and usually pure happy endings. It's the difference between a fun roller coaster ride romp and a deep dive into an intense, dramatic and epic odyssey.

So true! Chris Terrio has even identified BvS as having an ESB tone: https://web.archive.org/web/20160314015927/http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-93984
 
My dream backup plan for Zack Snyder if he doesn't get to go back to DC is for him to adapt the Gold Key superheroes, which originated in the 1950s-60s, and are owned by Universal Pictures now. Although I doubt their executives have even heard of them. They were owned by a media company that Dreamworks acquired 10 years ago. When Jim Shooter licensed Solar, Magnus and Turok as part of his launch of Valiant Comics in the 1990s, the execs of the company who owned them back then didn't know they had them.

Zack said at the 2020 DC FanDome that his favorite character, not counting Batman, is Dr. Manhattan. Gold Key's Solar, Man of the Atom is one of the precursors of Dr. Manhattan. I'm sure he could do an awesome movie with Solar, with the added freedom of not having to adapt a pre-existing story. If he did Magnus Robot Fighter, that might play out like a zombie movie with robots. And Turok Dinosaur Hunter would probably be the most commercial one. It's the most well-known because of the video games made for him in the 1990s. And dinosaur movies are certainly not oversaturated in the market yet.

Clicking through the covers of the 1991 Valiant reboot of Solar shows some great imagery:

Solar, Man of the Atom Vol 1 1

And Turok and Magnus:

Turok, Dinosaur Hunter Vol 1 1

Magnus, Robot Fighter Vol 1 1

I think if Zack teamed up with Jim Shooter (now age 70), who was the former DC/Marvel writer/editor who masterminded relaunching these characters in the 1990s, they could come up with a great plan to bring these characters into films. When Shooter launched Valiant, he did exactly the same tight continuity and crossovers that Kevin Feige brought to the MCU, which was one of the things Valiant was most praised for.

I’ve never undertaken it, or seen it done by anyone, but I’d love for some You Tuber out there to comb through BvS for possible references to Excalibur and point them all out.

There is something out there on YouTube about that. I know I read recently that Lois going underwater to get the spear could be a parallel to the lady in the lake with the sword. I've never seen Excalibur myself.

 
My dream backup plan for Zack Snyder if he doesn't get to go back to DC is for him to adapt the Gold Key superheroes, which originated in the 1950s-60s, and are owned by Universal Pictures now. Although I doubt their executives have even heard of them. They were owned by a media company that Dreamworks acquired 10 years ago. When Jim Shooter licensed Solar, Magnus and Turok as part of his launch of Valiant Comics in the 1990s, the execs of the company who owned them back then didn't know they had them.

Zack said at the 2020 DC FanDome that his favorite character, not counting Batman, is Dr. Manhattan. Gold Key's Solar, Man of the Atom is one of the precursors of Dr. Manhattan. I'm sure he could do an awesome movie with Solar, with the added freedom of not having to adapt a pre-existing story. If he did Magnus Robot Fighter, that might play out like a zombie movie with robots. And Turok Dinosaur Hunter would probably be the most commercial one. It's the most well-known because of the video games made for him in the 1990s. And dinosaur movies are certainly not oversaturated in the market yet.

Clicking through the covers of the 1991 Valiant reboot of Solar shows some great imagery:

Solar, Man of the Atom Vol 1 1

And Turok and Magnus:

Turok, Dinosaur Hunter Vol 1 1

Magnus, Robot Fighter Vol 1 1

I think if Zack teamed up with Jim Shooter (now age 70), who was the former DC/Marvel writer/editor who masterminded relaunching these characters in the 1990s, they could come up with a great plan to bring these characters into films. When Shooter launched Valiant, he did exactly the same tight continuity and crossovers that Kevin Feige brought to the MCU, which was one of the things Valiant was most praised for.

Since you’ve shared this elsewhere (reddit) I’ve gotten acquainted with this trio and I agree they would be really fun. I’d love to see Zack do something like this!

I’m not quite sure how would be best to approach them because they have such a wonderful pulp vibe in their original forms, i.e., when they were first introduced in the early 1960s. Yet that flavor might be a big gamble to try to capture in the current marketplace. I mean, personally I love the whole feel of that early 60s vibe. How to render that into something more updated would be a tremendous challenge.

I’ve mentioned this before but there are modern present day ufology based myths/legends/folklore that these characters could all tie into. The ufology stuff is basically what our present modern folklore consists of. And Solar, Turok, and Magnus each express parts of that whole mythos. There’s mythology related to time travel, hollow earth, transhumanism, and an AI and robot/android controlled future. There’s a lot to mine there.
 
I think some of the 1990s Turok comics and video games might've involved aliens in some way, but I'm not sure how. Jim Shooter did a short-lived relaunch of these three characters (plus Mighty Samson) in 2010 for Dark Horse Comics. It sounds like the idea in that one was that the 'lost valley' Turok ends up stuck in was filled with characters from everywhere in the past and the future, because the portals to the valley connected from various points in the timeline. It definitely sounds like a fertile concept, and nothing done in movies before.

Yeah, the concepts are pulpy, and could risk being like John Carter or Sky Captain where they don't connect with audiences. If anyone knows how to give it a cool factor, it would be Zack, like he did with 300. The Dark Horse version of Turok was a pre-Columbus era Indian. I would definitely consider making him a modern American Indian to make him more relatable. I like the idea that future villains from Magnus' era have brought the cyborg technology into the valley and created cyborg dinosaurs. These villains could easily be concocting some nefarious scheme from the valley that requires Turok to fight these dinosaurs.

Solar's type of character has been explored in movies a little with Dr. Manhattan and maybe some of the Quantum stuff Ant-Man does. His powers might resemble some of the reality-bending Dr. Strange does. But he would definitely have some of the most interesting powers of any superhero, and ones that would look cool on screen. The plot of the Valiant relaunch gets into big stuff like nuclear weapons, conflicts with the government and black holes threatening the Earth. Solar is probably the easiest of these to modernize and make into a serious, relevant, adult-themed story.

Magnus might be the most budget-busting, with needing to have robots all over the place. But superhero adventures in the actual future are still really rare in movies. So it would be new territory that could excite audiences...and definitely could be a spectacle of a movie. I think that one really should retain a more pulpy look, rather than look as gritty as the Terminator future. There should be some Jetsons-style there, with the danger and darkness lurking more under the surface.

I could see a through-line for kicking off the universe. This might've been what they did in Valiant more or less, I can't remember it all. Start with Solar as the first 'super' in this world. So he unleashes all this chaos as he tries to deal with his powers after the nuclear accident. His interference in the quantum world is what creates this time anomaly in the hidden valley that draws in characters from different eras. And the villain who comes from the future in the valley will form a connection to the future world of Magnus.

Snyder and Shooter would be a very interesting combo to see working together, because they both have a history of being the smartest guys in the room working on superheroes but then being forced out of their jobs anyway.
 
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I have to admit it’s the pulp aspect and especially the artwork that I enjoy most about those three Gold Key superheroes. I think that might be extremely difficult to translate to film in a way that really lands... Regardless, I would love to see the comics runs animated with original stories, in their pristine forms, in all their full 1962 glory. On YT I found someone’s attempt (trony) to bring the original Magnus comics to life by animating panels, similar to what was done to Watchmen some years back. It’s not outstanding work of that kind by any means, but it is enthralling to me nevertheless to see the original stories and artwork brought to life that way.

 
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Yeah, Batman V Superman was so magical and epic, and larger than life... NOT !!! xD Lois is the lady of lake paralel my ***... It was a ****** film. Martha.... Martha... Martha...xD HA HA HA What an idiotic piece of ****... Let it go.
 
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I could see Tyler Hoechlin as Turok. He's apparently part Native American.

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turok-2-josh.jpg


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tyler-hoechlin-teen-wolf-movie.jpg


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Yeah, I was looking through the comics on YT and Hoechlin does have a similar facial structure.
 
Yeah, Batman V Superman was so magical and epic, and larger than life... NOT !!! xD Lois is the lady of lake paralel my ass... It was a ****** film. Martha.... Martha... Martha...xD HA HA HA What an idiotic piece of crap... Let it go.

Thank you for your trenchant analysis!
 
Yeah, Batman V Superman was so magical and epic, and larger than life... NOT !!! xD Lois is the lady of lake paralel my ***... It was a ****** film. Martha.... Martha... Martha...xD HA HA HA What an idiotic piece of ****... Let it go.
Play nice. Post edited.
 
Universal could rebrand these characters as the Universal Heroes, just like they have their Universal Monsters.

Magnus could be Chris Pratt, I guess. The danger is they cast Ryan Reynolds, confuse it with the Jetsons and try to make it a comedy. I, Robot is probably the closest a movie has come to what Magnus would be. But then mix in the futuristic cities from Attack of the Clones and Minority Report, and the movie gets more expensive. So it would almost certainly need a star like Pratt or Reynolds in the lead.

I could imagine Jared Leto with silver hair as Solar. I think he could do the introspective guy who starts to exist in different planes of reality. May be difficult for him to land the part after Morbius was poorly received though.

Solar%2B5.jpg
 
Yeah, Batman V Superman was so magical and epic, and larger than life... NOT !!! xD Lois is the lady of lake paralel my ***... It was a ****** film. Martha.... Martha... Martha...xD HA HA HA What an idiotic piece of ****... Let it go.
Ducky????
 
Universal could rebrand these characters as the Universal Heroes, just like they have their Universal Monsters.

Magnus could be Chris Pratt, I guess. The danger is they cast Ryan Reynolds, confuse it with the Jetsons and try to make it a comedy. I, Robot is probably the closest a movie has come to what Magnus would be. But then mix in the futuristic cities from Attack of the Clones and Minority Report, and the movie gets more expensive. So it would almost certainly need a star like Pratt or Reynolds in the lead.

I could imagine Jared Leto with silver hair as Solar. I think he could do the introspective guy who starts to exist in different planes of reality. May be difficult for him to land the part after Morbius was poorly received though.

Solar%2B5.jpg

Or maybe Matthew McConaughey? Or even Joaquin Phoenix, lol! Because honestly it would have to be an actor that doesn’t give a ****. A film like this would be a big risk.
 
I bet an adult River Phoenix would've been great for Solar. Joaquin might be a little too dark for it. I think the character's got to have some likability and naivete. I see him as an innocent workaday everyman who is thrust into this new plane of existence. It helps if he's not a perfect square-jawed heroic type, and doesn't have a buff body. A younger Michael Keaton might've been good for it.

Actually, Ed Norton might be really good. Granted he had his bite at the nuclear accident superhero apple already, but he might want back into the game to get a little revenge on Marvel by giving them some competition. So this entire production could be built around revenge. Norton's revenge on Marvel, Snyder's revenge on WB and Jim Shooter's revenge on Valiant Comics.
 
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