Future of DC Films (DCEU)

[ironwez20]

This one. SM3 made 900 million in 2007!



Because they wanted Marvel money and when they feared it wasn't happening fast enough they panicked. Their A-listers weren't at the top anymore. Marvels B listers were.

There a listers weren’t at the top anymore because poor movies. Batman v superman should have cleared a billion easily. Sigh you don’t get it. I’m not going to keep reminding you

 

[Alatar]

I’ve lost my will to fight over what Snyder did, and have pretty much checked out emotionally on the DCU as a whole. But I do love BvS and I think I have a fair understanding of the polarized reception to it.

BvS is a deconstruction. I’ve provided plenty of evidence to that effect (including direct quotes from Zack Snyder himself). That BvS is a deconstruction is not really in question. It’s key to appreciation of the film as the director intended it. But obviously not everyone is going to appreciate the film that way. That’s up to the audience.

It’s fair to say that most people in the audience were neither expecting that nor asked for a deconstruction. And clearly many did not want it. Many hated it for that reason, ironically even if BvS being a deconstruction flew over their heads. I.e., the things that bugged people who were expecting classical takes on the superheroes such as “Batman kills,” “Superman is mopey and self–doubting,” and “Lex Luthor is a cringe deranged millennial,” etc., are all elements of the deconstruction.

BvS being a deconstruction doesn’t make it “bad.“ But when understood as a deconstruction BvS really is a great film. In fact I would say it’s a legit masterpiece in that aspect actually.

In any event, the mainstream critics and GA were definitely not into a deconstruction for the first ever live action meeting of Superman and Batman. They were appalled by it, lol. It evoked real hatred.

Artistically that’s ballsy af though! Those of us that can and do appreciate the deconstruction aspect of BvS are over the moon about the movie. But even as one of those fans myself, I acknowledge that as a business decision it was a gigantic gamble that ultimately didn’t win over enough of the mainstream audience. It failed to connect with the taste of the audience that wants a much more straightforward and classical approach to the genre.

Personally, I’m still delighted that we got BvS. But I also understand and respect that many others… arguably the majority of the GA… just aren’t open to enjoying it.

 

[Garlador]

I’ve lost my will to fight over what Snyder did, and have pretty much checked out emotionally on the DCU as a whole. But I do love BvS and I think I have a fair understanding of the polarized reception to it.

BvS is a deconstruction. I’ve provided plenty of evidence to that effect (including direct quotes from Zack Snyder himself). That BvS is a deconstruction is not really in question. It’s key to appreciation of the film as the director intended it. But obviously not everyone is going to appreciate the film that way. That’s up to the audience.

It’s fair to say that most people in the audience were neither expecting that nor asked for a deconstruction. And clearly many did not want it. Many hated it for that reason, ironically even if BvS being a deconstruction flew over their heads. I.e., the things that bugged people who were expecting classical takes on the superheroes such as “Batman kills,” “Superman is mopey and sel–doubting,” and “Lex Luthor is a cringe deranged millennial,” etc., are all elements of the deconstruction.

BvS being a deconstruction doesn’t make it “bad.“ But when understood as a deconstruction BvS really is a great film. In fact I would say it’s a legit masterpiece in that aspect actually.

In any event, the mainstream critics and GA were definitely not into a deconstruction for the first ever live action meeting of Superman and Batman. They were appalled by it, lol. It evoked real hatred.

Artistically that’s ballsy af though! Those of us that can and do appreciate the deconstruction aspect of BvS are over the moon about the movie. But even as one of those fans myself, I acknowledge that as a business decision it was a gigantic gamble that ultimately didn’t win over enough of the mainstream audience. It failed to connect with the taste of the audience that wants a much more straightforward and classical approach to the genre.

Personally, I’m still delighted that we got BvS. But I also understand and respect that many others… arguably the majority of the GA… just aren’t open to enjoying it.

This is pretty much where I stand, though I knew it was a deconstruction and that was a major reason I feel it didn't work. So many of these characters were in need of a proper "construction" before we should talk about a "deconstruction", but Snyder skipped right to the deconstruction. It blows my mind the first film-appearance of iconic characters like Wonder Woman and The Flash are in a film that's about breaking their mythos down.

I think a deconstruction would have worked so much better if, well, they had been built up first. I know it's not fair to always compare the DCEU to the MCU, but I think about Captain America as the MCU's Superman - idealistic, old-fashioned, "outdated", etc. He's introduced as the selfless hero who was heroic long before his powers, that other characters admired because of his values and steadfast morals. And soon after, in the modern world, the MCU begins questioning his place in a less black-and-white world, and Steve has to grapple with a world that doesn't respect or value the optimism he believed in and espoused. He faces a world that is open to turning on him and declaring him a public enemy for daring to question the military and government. Bit by bit, he finds himself having to compromise his values for the "greater" good (lying to Tony about Bucky's hand in his parents' deaths, going from "we don't trade lives" to "whatever it takes", etc.). By the end, Steve has been broken down as person and a symbol, and his legacy carried on into Falcon & The Winter Soldier where the differing views of what Steve represented - to the government, to the world, to his teammates, to minorities, to his friends - is explored in great detail. Marvel continues to do this with other characters (particularly in their "What If" shorts).

I would love a Superman that's deconstructed like that over time. One that is established FIRST and then over time painted with shades of gray as his worldview is challenged (specifically by Batman). We skipped over all that nuance, and that's partly because Snyder wasn't interested and partially because WB wanted to rush that framework into their own universe of hero films. I know exactly what Snyder intended, and I respect that he went the direction he did, but it was a colossal misfire of timing and universe-building. I still WANT a great deconstruction with great execution, but I don't feel this was it.

 

[Alatar]

This is pretty much where I stand, though I knew it was a deconstruction and that was a major reason I feel it didn't work. So many of these characters were in need of a proper "construction" before we should talk about a "deconstruction", but Snyder skipped right to the deconstruction. It blows my mind the first film-appearance of iconic characters like Wonder Woman and The Flash are in a film that's about breaking their mythos down.

I think a deconstruction would have worked so much better if, well, they had been built up first. I know it's not fair to always compare the DCEU to the MCU, but I think about Captain America as the MCU's Superman - idealistic, old-fashioned, "outdated", etc. He's introduced as the selfless hero who was heroic long before his powers, that other characters admired because of his values and steadfast morals. And soon after, in the modern world, the MCU begins questioning his place in a less black-and-white world, and Steve has to grapple with a world that doesn't respect or value the optimism he believed in and espoused. He faces a world that is open to turning on him and declaring him a public enemy for daring to question the military and government. Bit by bit, he finds himself having to compromise his values for the "greater" good (lying to Tony about Bucky's hand in his parents' deaths, going from "we don't trade lives" to "whatever it takes", etc.). By the end, Steve has been broken down as person and a symbol, and his legacy carried on into Falcon & The Winter Soldier where the differing views of what Steve represented - to the government, to the world, to his teammates, to minorities, to his friends - is explored in great detail. Marvel continues to do this with other characters (particularly in their "What If" shorts).

I would love a Superman that's deconstructed like that over time. One that is established FIRST and then over time painted with shades of gray as his worldview is challenged (specifically by Batman). We skipped over all that nuance, and that's partly because Snyder wasn't interested and partially because WB wanted to rush that framework into their own universe of hero films. I know exactly what Snyder intended, and I respect that he went the direction he did, but it was a colossal misfire of timing and universe-building. I still WANT a great deconstruction with great execution, but I don't feel this was it.

No disrespect meant to you personally, but as for me I reject the narrative that we somehow needed a “construction” of Superman and Batman in those forms before seeing the deconstruction. The characters have been around for 83 years! We’ve had decade after decade of comics, graphic novels, TV shows, cartoons, and movies for these characters. The average viewer is already very familiar with the “constructed“ or classical versions of the characters.

BvS as a deconstruction intends to jar you out of your preconceived expectations about what the characters mean. The classical form of these heroes is intended to soothe you through escapism into a fictional ideal. Deconstruction does the opposite. It places the heroes in a realistic and problematic world to show what the characters would look like if they could actually exist in real life. That’s a much more flawed existence than their classical forms. To show them as they exist in the fantastical idealized space that they were created in in the comics is antithetical to the project of deconstruction.

 

[Garlador]

No disrespect meant to you personally, but as for me I reject the narrative that we somehow needed a “construction” of Superman and Batman in those forms before seeing the deconstruction. The characters have been around for 83 years! We’ve had decade after decade of comics, graphic novels, TV shows, cartoons, and movies for these characters. The average viewer is already very familiar with the “constructed“ or classical versions of the characters.

True for Supes and Batman, but that’s why I singled out Wonder Woman and Flash earlier as characters with zero film presence who debuted in a deconstruction film. The average viewer couldn’t even begin to tell you their origins or heroic motivations at the time.

 

[All Might]

I hope we get a live action BTAS-esque Batman. I don’t want to see another theatrical campy version, I don’t want to see another realistic version, I don’t want to see another too serious deconstructed version, I don’t want to see another emo grunge version, I just want normal Batman.

You can like Burton, Nolan, Snyder, Reeves, but we have yet to see one god damn normal Batman on film.

I hope Gunn gives us this. A Batman in his 30s. A Bruce Wayne, that at times is aloof, yet a charming absentminded playboy. A sarcastic and dry witted Alfred. An actual Bat-Family. A rogues gallery that doesn’t stray too far from their motivations, origins, or appearances.

 

[Alatar]

True for Supes and Batman, but that’s why I singled out Wonder Woman and Flash earlier as characters with zero film presence who debuted in a deconstruction film. The average viewer couldn’t even begin to tell you their origins or heroic motivations at the time.

To some extent this is a matter of taste for a stylistic choice. It’s okay with me that Diana is mysterious. And the other brief cameos of Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman can be for me as well. We’ll learn about them eventually, right? In this vein I like films like 2005 Constantine because it doesn’t explain and just shows you what’s going on in an already developed world. For example, the scenes with Papa Midnite. Chronicles of Riddick, a film that I love, is like this too with respect to many aspects of its setting such as the Necromongers, the Furyans, the Elementals, and so on.

One of the things I’ve always wondered about Zack Snyder’s vision of deconstruction is whether its meant to mirror real life in the sense that real life doesn’t tell us what’s going on, or explain everything to us, etc., either. More often than not as we watch the world we’re having to piece things together, make surmises and inferences, connect dots, and so forth. The real world doesn’t spell everything out for us. it makes us work to figure it out. As Batman says in BvS “The world only makes sense when you force it to.”

 

[spindrift]

I loved everything about Snyder's take on DC- all of it. Impressed me more than most of Marvel's cookie-cutter approach. Marvel has some great films, but Infinity war was the peak for me.
I just have to move on. I agree, BvS just about tipped the boat over for DC . The Snyderverse is a losing proposition for them. Has nothing to do how much you think the movie is a masterpiece or crap. The "numbers" aren't there for DC.
Hoping Gunn surprises us with some great films

 

[Prime Clone]

A sarcastic and dry witted Alfred.

At least Jeremy Irons gave us that!

 

[jye4ever]

Gunn said Black Adam has nothing to do with any of the phases of his plan

Cavill’s The Flash cameo has already achieved gold cult status.

 

[Otomofan]

I hope we get a live action BTAS-esque Batman.

I agree that B:TAS is definitely the most "pure" version of Batman we've ever got in "moving" form, but I just don't think it could ever work in live action. It would either come off corny and campy as hell, like Adam West or Joel Schumaker, or else it's too try-hard "realistic" like Nolan and Pattison's goofy armor costumes. In my opinion, trying to be "realistic" ends up looking just as dumb as the campy stuff cause nobody would ever wear that and function in those dumb costumes in the real world.

I'll never forget seeing "Mask of the Phantasm" in the theater during it's very brief theatrical run. That scene of Batman spying on his girlfriend, perched way up on a skyscraper in the pouring rain...for some reason that shot just really resonated with me. Kind of the "essence" of Batman comics come to life, in a way that no live action Batman ever could.

 

[GreenRanger-Kush]

 

[All Might]

 

[T8OO]

View attachment 614772

Done

 

[Prime Clone]

ZSJL is supposedly not canon.

But WB still sells it bundled with MoS and BvS.

So, choose your own headcanon!

(Then again, they told us WW84 and TSS weren't even direct sequels so...)

 

[JMT1979]

ZSJL is supposedly not canon.

But WB still sells it bundled with MoS and BvS.

So, choose your own headcanon!

(Then again, they told us WW84 and TSS weren't even direct sequels so...)

I'd much rather it be canon than the trash 2017 theatrical version.
We all know WW84 was meant to be a direct sequel, but they are just saying this because it was utter garbage.
I liked TSS, and if it not being a direct sequel means it can be in the new DC world order, then I am willing to accept that!

 

[ShadowGuardian]

Just gave this a watch. It's a really well done fan project, editing is solid and I love the art. Cool to see the plans for Justice League 2 + 3 in a visual format; I had never read the script that had been shared/leaked before. There are some big story beats that are similar to Infinity War/Endgame for sure.

I will say, there are some things in Snyder's overarching vision that I really like and wish could have played out, and there are also some key, significant story beats that I absolutely despise.

 

[T8OO]

Just gave this a watch. It's a really well done fan project, editing is solid and I love the art. Cool to see the plans for Justice League 2 + 3 in a visual format; I had never read the script that had been shared/leaked before. There are some big story beats that are similar to Infinity War/Endgame for sure.

I will say, there are some things in Snyder's overarching vision that I really like and wish could have played out, and there are also some key, significant story beats that I absolutely despise.

I thought they did pretty well with the material.
Just in case you don't know, this isn't what JL2 and 3 would have been after ZSJL. This rough outline was done with Jim Lee before BvS came out and has since been changed. Some of the apparent changes are Lois/Bruce. Deathstroke and Joker rather than Deadshot in the Knightmare.

They took liberties with material I didn't expect or would have done myself and places where I thought it would have made more sense to tweak they didn't touch. Overall I liked it but the way they tacked on all the heroes at the end cheapened it significantly.

 

[All Might]

What the hell. This is obnoxiously bad. Bruce bangs Lois. Dies to save Lois Lane. Then Superman comes back and raises Bruce’s son?

My god. I can’t even begin to describe this. It reads like bad demented fan fic.

 

[ShadowGuardian]

What the hell. This is obnoxiously bad. Bruce bangs Lois. Dies to save Lois Lane. Then Superman comes back and raises Bruce’s son?

That's one of the parts I absolutely despise.

I think a lot of the Knightmare sequences are neat though and that makes me wish we got more of that post apocalyptic wasteland on the big screen.