Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Zen Mutiny]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Batman's smarter than everyone else, and is the most competent tactician among the Leaguers. . .that's more than enough reason to warrant his being on the team, because those are strengths that can not be met matched purely by the ability to punch through a mountain. But you add to this the fact that he has no powers, and thus acts as a check on the League's potential ambitions and tendencies to view humans too distantly. Genuine heroes (if such are allowed to exist in the Goyer/Snyder-verse) would want such a person involved in order to reign in certain fascist tendencies.

Funny, I would consider Batman to be one of the LEAST human among the JL A-listers. Flash and Green Lantern were both ordinary men granted powers later in life. Superman is probably the MOST human of them, having grown up a farmboy in Kansas (that's a little debatable with the MOS version). Batman, on the other hand, had his humanity robbed from him at an early age and hasn't lived a normal life since.

And I'm not sure why his ability or inability to beat up on any other given character gives or takes away from a character's "meaning." It only seems fully necessary for this movie because they're calling the damn thing "Batman vs. Superman" or some such, and if Batman doesn't provide a credible threat of sorts then the title would be silly.

Because Batman is the ultimate underdog. The idea is, no matter how grave the threat, he can find it in his bottomless human ingenuity to defeat it. No matter what Batman started as, that's what he's become. It's not such a stretch when he's in an isolated universe, facing non-superpowered foes, but in a Justice League universe, he has to be a legend, a god among men. And nothing establishes that credibility better than beating Superman. It's the ultimate test of his abilities, and it's what everybody who has a soul, deep down, wants to see. It represents the triumph of the common man over a foe that for all intents and purposes, is naturally, by gift of nature, better in almost every way. Every way but creativity, ingenuity, and willpower. That is the essence of the modern Batman narrative.

I rather the made another Superman movie without Batman in it. Superman doesn't need having Batman as a co-star to sell tickets.

No, but he does in order to compete with Avengers 2, and let's face it, to the suits who call the shots at WB, that's all that matters. Not that Superman needs Batman to make a great story, but he might in order to make the kind of box office money that's required for us, the fans, to get the DC movie universe that we want.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

I see modern Superman as a god-like alien that always strives to be more human. But at the end of the day, Superman will never be anything like a human. The closest he can ever come is to empathize with them, defend them, and pretend to be them for the purpose of his alter ego. Honestly though, I think the better Superman stories are actually those like Supreme, where he embraces and understands his nature. I don't think Goyer will go there.

I'm sure beating Superman would establish him as a major force to be reckoned with, but by no means is that the only route to that level of respect. He didn't need it in the cartoons or comics.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

And just because Batman was traumatized as a kid doesn't make him any less human! The study of humanity is a study of psychological flaws and contradictions. But when people start changing in fantastic ways, I can easily see them starting to lose perspective in the same way that any dictator would. That in itself may be a human trait, but the anthropomorphized aliens in a superhero movie need to keep some basic human characteristics.

 

[New_Kryptonian]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Nope, there is about 50 times more emotional weight in the least of the Marvel U films (Iron Man 2?) than in Man of Steel. Apart from Jor-El, I didn't care about a single character in Man of Steel. The Goyer/Nolan team got it to work. Goyer/Snyder. . .no.

That's a matter of personal perceptions which varies from person to person. Some people become more involved than others in a movie or character, and other people have a different reaction.
That you think/feel that "Man of Steel" didn't resonate so much with you, it's YOUR perception, but that your own experience, and mine was very different.
"Iron Man" was very annoying for me, in many ways, primarily the personality of it's protagonist.

Apparently not if you didn't see the downed spy satellite thing and the "you're just going to have to trust me" lecture.

The "lecture" wasn't really such, and in any case, what else could he have done? Giving himself up? Renounce his own civil liberties for the good of the government? For what purpose?

And you brought up Iron Man 2... in which Iron Man behaves like the King of the USA in the Senate hearings, and later has the Senator that led the hearings giving him a medal. Didn't he say that nobody else would have that technology in 20 years? And then Ivan Vanko appeared with a copy of it.

 

[Zen Mutiny]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

I see modern Superman as a god-like alien that always strives to be more human. But at the end of the day, Superman will never be anything like a human. The closest he can ever come is to empathize with them, defend them, and pretend to be them for the purpose of his alter ego.

I've always seen Superman as being far more human than Batman. He pretty much grew up normally, except he has god-like powers. Sure it was something awkward to hide at times, but that's not exactly something to cry about. Outside of being Superman, he lives a far more normal life than Batman ever has. If he lost his powers, he'd be a perfectly adjusted human being. Batman doesn't even fit in normal society. His mental condition would be crippling to someone who even attempted to live a normal life. He literally is a creature of the night, the costume that he created is an actual expression of who he really is.

 

[New_Kryptonian]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

And just because Batman was traumatized as a kid doesn't make him any less human! The study of humanity is a study of psychological flaws and contradictions. But when people start changing in fantastic ways, I can easily see them starting to lose perspective in the same way that any dictator would. That in itself may be a human trait, but the anthropomorphized aliens in a superhero movie need to keep some basic human characteristics.

What makes Batman less human isn't the trauma. That is actually the only human element he's got left these days.
What makes him inhuman, is his own impulse on becoming above all other humans, to want to control everything and everyone, and the fact the he allowed his masked persona to overshadow his own civilian identity. He became so obsessed with his anti-crime mission, that he started using his own civilian identity to help conceal his activities in his masked identity. He pretty much got rid of his human side, on purpose.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

As a Batman fan I don't need him to beat up Superman to justify his place in JL. He is the tactician, and the most dangerous one of them all. His most badass moments in stories involving them all is that he gets by with what he has. In the Superman/Batman comic where they brought back Supergirl, he basically bluffs Darkseid into giving up Kara. Darkseid even admits that he wouldn't buy the same bluff from Kal or Diana. But he feels Batman would do it. Batman is the guy with the plan, who will never give up. He pushes himself harder than the rest to prove to himself he belongs. I do not need him beating up Clark. Personally I love the fact that they are friends. That Clark trusts him with the K-Ring, and that he trusts Clark to keep him from going too deep into the monster that is Batman. Miller ignored that so he could tell his story. If Snyder is going to consult anyone it should be Bruce Timm and Paul Dini. Those guys wrote Bruce and Clark as great friends. And wrote Batman as fitting well wth the JL.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

I think we agree that "humanity" is a function of how certain experiences, abilities, and drives affect someone psychologically, in a manner that would make them act more or less like other human beings might. I agree that Batman is the real nature of the character, and not Wayne, but Batman is still a human being. Flawed though he may be. No matter how Superman was raised, how could he still truly relate to these people who he could destroy, without any serious retaliation, with a mere whim? The real game changer when we're talking about humanity is power, real (as in authoritarian dictators) or imagined (as in serial killers). Batman does not achieve it on the level of a Superman or Green Lantern. And in fact, his own humanity forces him to relinquish power at a certain point. This was one thing I liked about the Dark Knight, where Batman realized the potential for corruption with the cell phone sonar and destroyed it before the corruption took hold. He also said in the Doomsday cartoon that he believed the Justice League were a sufficient check on him, implying that he knew he needed it and purposefully wanted it. Superman can never withdraw from his own power. And that makes him a threat that someone with genuine humanity needs to check. What does Superman do at the end of Man of Steel? Again, destroys military satellites and tells the government to back off.

The better examples of a human to provide context would be Green Arrow (as in the JLU cartoon), or maybe a Blue Beetle, because Batman does demonstrate some fascist tendencies, but Batman could certainly play that role in a world where he is the least powerful among a group of heroes.

The "lecture" wasn't really such, and in any case, what else could he have done? Giving himself up? Renounce his own civil liberties for the good of the government? For what purpose?

I think his behavior makes sense in the context of the film, but the fact is he does not capitulate to the military, and in fact defies the U.S. government's attempt to keep tabs on and try to control him, as I said before. The logical extension is that he would eventually take more and more steps to consolidate his own power at the expense of the humans, in order to protect the humans from themselves, etc.

 

[Zen Mutiny]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

As a Batman fan I don't need him to beat up Superman to justify his place in JL. He is the tactician, and the most dangerous one of them all. His most badass moments in stories involving them all is that he gets by with what he has. In the Superman/Batman comic where they brought back Supergirl, he basically bluffs Darkseid into giving up Kara. Darkseid even admits that he wouldn't buy the same bluff from Kal or Diana. But he feels Batman would do it. Batman is the guy with the plan, who will never give up. He pushes himself harder than the rest to prove to himself he belongs. I do not need him beating up Clark. Personally I love the fact that they are friends. That Clark trusts him with the K-Ring, and that he trusts Clark to keep him from going too deep into the monster that is Batman. Miller ignored that so he could tell his story. If Snyder is going to consult anyone it should be Bruce Timm and Paul Dini. Those guys wrote Bruce and Clark as great friends. And wrote Batman as fitting well wth the JL.

Personally, I agree, I don't need a Batman/Superman matchup, but it would be pointless to do it for any reason but to show how competent Batman really is. At this point, though, it has been announced, and it's going to happen, but we all know that they're going to team up in the end. There's nothing wrong with having a little fun with the story before that happens, and no matter what happens with the matchup between them, Batman and Superman are practically going to end up being the biggest dysfunctional buddy cop pairing of all time, and personally, I can't wait to see that happen. I just hope that Goyer's script isn't too starchy to be humorous, because the comedic potential here is enormous.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Of course, there are different versions of Batman and Superman out there, so a lot of this hinges on which versions you are referring to. I'm thinking of these as "modern" variations of the character on the order of what Goyer/Snyder seemed to be going for in Man of Steel, the portrayal of Batman in JLI, and what we see in the JLU cartoons for instance. Batman was always more skeptical of the JL's powers than were the other "original 7" in the JL and JLU cartoons, and that makes some sense to me. Eventually it wasn't enough and he brought Green Arrow in, but he did play that role in some episodes. This sums it up:

[ame]https://youtu.be/Xk4E-hCmu9g[/ame]

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

I just hope that Goyer's script isn't too starchy to be humorous, because the comedic potential there is enormous.

If Goyer demonstrated real comedic writing ability I would agree with you, but the "comedy" bits in Man of Steel, man. . .just one step above some of Lucas's prequel stuff. *shudders*

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Personally, I agree, I don't need a Batman/Superman matchup, but it would be pointless to do it for any reason but to show how competent Batman really is. We all know that they're going to team up, and this is going to take the place of Kirk/Spock as the next great Hollywood bro-mance. There's nothing wrong with having a little fun with the story before that happens. No matter what happens with the matchup between the two, Batman/Superman, in this movie, and all the movies that follow, is practically going to end up being the biggest disfunctional buddy cop pairing of all time, and personally, I can't wait to see that. I just hope that Goyer script isn't too starchy to make it a humorous one, because the comedic potential there is enormous.

But there are other ways. Like when Bruce Timm had Superman discover Batman's identity by using his x-ray vision. While Batman put a tracer on Superman(without him noticing) and followed him home(again without being noticed until he wanted too). Or when Jeph Loeb did have a Poison Ivy controlled Superman fight Batman. Batman acknowledges he cannot win this fight even with the K-ring. But he planned for this anytime he's in Metropolis. He uses Luthor's lead lined tunnels So Superman must enter them to find him and no flight. Puts the fight under the Daily Planet, minimizing the damage Superman will want to do. Breaks a gas main, so no heat vision. And you find out all of this is to just buy himself time to implement a secondary plan(having Catwoman drop Lois from the roof of the Planet). This shows why he is not to be crossed. Yet clearly shows his respect and knowledge of Superman's abilities. Both of these reveal how competent he is, and in neither scenario did he beat up Superman.

 

[Zen Mutiny]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

If Goyer demonstrated real comedic writing ability I would agree with you, but the "comedy" bits in Man of Steel, man. . .just one step above some of Lucas's prequel stuff. *shudders*

Someday, if interdimensional travel is invented, I'd like to visit a universe in which Whedon landed this gig.

But there are other ways. Like when Bruce Timm had Superman discover Batman's identity by using his x-ray vision. While Batman put a tracer on Superman(without him noticing) and followed him home(again without being noticed until he wanted too). Or when Jeph Loeb did have a Poison Ivy controlled Superman fight Batman. Batman acknowledges he cannot win this fight even with the K-ring. But he planned for this anytime he's in Metropolis. He uses Luthor's lead lined tunnels So Superman must enter them to find him and no flight. Puts the fight under the Daily Planet, minimizing the damage Superman will want to do. Breaks a gas main, so no heat vision. And you find out all of this is to just buy himself time to implement a secondary plan(having Catwoman drop Lois from the roof of the Planet). This shows why he is not to be crossed. Yet clearly shows his respect and knowledge of Superman's abilities. Both of these reveal how competent he is, and in neither scenario did he beat up Superman.

The problem with that is, you need a competent writer to write a character who's that competent.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Of course, there are different versions of Batman and Superman out there, so a lot of this hinges on which versions you are referring to. I'm thinking of these as "modern" variations of the character on the order of what Goyer/Snyder seemed to be going for in Man of Steel, the portrayal of Batman in JLI, and what we see in the JLU cartoons for instance. Batman was always more skeptical of the JL's powers than were the other "original 7" in the JL and JLU cartoons, and that makes some sense to me. Eventually it wasn't enough and he brought Green Arrow in, but he did play that role in some episodes. This sums it up:

https://youtu.be/Xk4E-hCmu9g

Yeah, but in that clip that is after he saw alternate versions of himself and the others take over the world. And he understands how easliy it could happen. Especially if he went along. At that point he is trying to distance himself, in case it happens there.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Yeah, but in that clip that is after he saw alternate versions of himself and the others take over the world. And he understands how easliy it could happen. Especially if he went along. At that point he is trying to distance himself, in case it happens there.

But Superman and Wonder Woman knew the same things Bruce did, and didn't think it was a cause for concern. Batman knows better, because, in my opinion, he maintains the skepticism that his humanity provides in the way the others don't. It's like Warren Ellis's Authority--when those guys got that much power, their perspective drastically changed. They had no real check (closest thing were governments that had no teeth and would be lectured by Jenny Sparks), so they had free reign to do whatever they pleased, and did so.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

But Superman and Wonder Woman knew the same things Bruce did, and didn't think it was a cause for concern. Batman knows better, because, in my opinion, he maintains the skepticism that his humanity provides in the way the others don't. It's like Warren Ellis's Authority--when those guys got that much power, their perspective drastically changed.

I think he was more bothered by it than the others. Remember he is the only one who had a conversation with his alternate self. And that conversation was huge. I mean, Other Batman presented an argument that Batman couldn't come back from.
Other Batman: That's the thing about democracy, it doesn't keep you very safe.

Batman: It has other qualities, but you seem to have forgotten those.

Other Batman: I didn't forget. I just chose peace and security instead.

Batman: You grabbed power!

Other-Batman: And with that power I created a world where no 8 year old boy will ever lose his parents because of some punk with a gun.

 

[Ramatuelle]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

If Batman can't beat Superman, there is literally no point to the character.

So beating the snot out of people is Batman's sole purpose and only usefulness? For real? This is an insult to this many-layered character. Batman and Superman each bring different strengths to the table. Why not have Batman bring his strengths and use them, instead of angsting about the fact that he cannot physically take down a demigod?

Because he can't, and having him do so onscreen will break suspension of disbelief badly.

TBH I am not even sure Bats could take Wonder Woman down if it came to fisticuffs. He should use his much-vaunted brain, and leave the beatdowns to those who are best made to carry 'em out. That's when you call in Supes.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

Funny I just watched that episode last night, and though it initially appears that Earth-1 Bats is swayed (he drops his batarang and seems to join Justice Lord Bats), it is ultimately shown to be ruse, since after his ride to Arkham with Justice Lords Batman (where they see the guy arrested for causing a scene at a restaurant), JL Batman helps the League go back to Earth-1 to stop the rest of the Justice Lords. I take this to mean that Earth-1 Batman knew deep-down that he could convince Lord Batman that he was right, again--because of that humanity and innate skepticism of fascist power--but in order to do so they had to stop fighting and give Lord Bats an opportunity to really think it through.

 

[Zen Mutiny]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

So beating the snot out of people is Batman's sole purpose and only usefulness? For real? This is an insult to this many-layered character. Batman and Superman each bring different strengths to the table. Why not have Batman bring his strengths and use them, instead of angsting about the fact that he cannot physically take down a demigod?

Because he can't, and having him do so onscreen will break suspension of disbelief badly.

TBH I am not even sure Bats could take Wonder Woman down if it came to fisticuffs. He should use his much-vaunted brain, and leave the beatdowns to those who are best made to carry 'em out. That's when you call in Supes.

Maybe not beat him, but at least give him a run for his money, or establish his ability to do so. Naturally, he would use his talent for preparation and execution to do so. The reason I say that there would be no point to the character, is because he must be established to be on par, in some way, with the rest of the Justice League. In the comics, he has a plan to take out each and every one of them should the need arise. If he couldn't carry out those plans successfully, what does that say about his character?

I'm not saying it has to be a direct physical confrontation, but he has to prove his worth in some way, far more so than any other DC character.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Man of Steel 2 (Superman/Batman--Official title to be confirmed)

I'm not saying it has to be a direct physical confrontation, but he has to prove his worth in some way, far more so than any other DC character.

Any other DC character?. . .