The Batman (June 25, 2021)

[user 72759]

I think the guy at the funeral was just meant to show Bruce needs to be doing more as Bruce. Him recognizing Bruce I think was meant to be a little humorous since he knows Bruce just overheard him talking trash. I don’t think we’re meant to read anymore into it than that.

The whole funeral scene is obviously supposed to show Bruce is either learning he’s not doing enough or feels guilt that he isn’t. with the interaction with Falcone, then Reál, then the guy talking about the Wayne’s never helping his daughter, then him seeing the very young-Bruce-Wayne-looking kid and saving him when the car drives in.

I guess this movie went to lengths to show this Bruce/Batman is a little ****** and reckless and definitely tees him up to be more selfless in the sequel. I think I agree that I would have enjoyed it more if he outsmarted the riddler with the “Bring him into the light” with Falcone. I think it’s sort of disappointing there weren’t many revelatory moments in the film. Aside from Bruce thinking Riddler knew who he was there wasn’t much that went differently than you’d have expected.

BATMAN STOPS THE RIDDLER'S PLAN - HOW are you still choosing to ignore this?!

Riddler gets exactly where he wants to be to watch the final fight. Batman REACTING to an ongoing situation is not outsmarting or getting ahead of the Riddler. Batman is reactive through the whole film and is at no point ahead of the Riddler. The climax is a simple tactical fight in which Batman almost loses, has to use a stimulant to survive, AND almost kills someone.

For the last time, he only got there because Riddler gave him what he needed to get there. He never outsmarts, gets ahead, or proactively prevents something Riddler was trying to do. Riddler’s belief they were on the same team is the only reason Batman can stop anyone at GSG, not any skill of Batman other than brute strength.

In TDK, for the last time, Batman stops Joker’s plot to blow up the boats because of actions and foresight he alone took/had. Getting there when he did also allows him to save Gordon’s son later. Other than informing Batman that he corrupted Dent, Joker didn’t help Batman at all. Batman wouldn’t have learned that if he didn’t get ahead of and stop Joker before he detonated the ferries.

See the difference? Still no?

I am done engaging with you - you will clearly lie if you think it will help your point - feel free to have the last word.
I have had enough of all this, you need to grow up a bit.

OT: Batman gets ahead of and stops the joker in TDK. Batman doesn’t stop or get ahead of Riddler in The Batman. I don’t like that.

Lordnastrond: Heres a dissertation on why the facts in the movie aren’t as they appear AND a different statement than the one you made and how that different statement than the one you made is wrong. Now, why are you being so argumentative OT?

 

[e30ernest]

Riddler gets exactly where he wants to be to watch the final fight. Batman REACTING to an ongoing situation is not outsmarting or getting ahead of the Riddler. Batman is reactive through the whole film and is at no point ahead of the Riddler. The climax is a simple tactical fight in which Batman almost loses, has to use a stimulant to survive, AND almost kills someone.

For the last time, he only got there because Riddler gave him what he needed to get there. He never outsmarts, gets ahead, or proactively prevents something Riddler was trying to do. Riddler’s belief they were on the same team is the only reason Batman can stop anyone at GSG, not any skill of Batman other than brute strength.

I agree with this. In this movie at least, Batman did not win against the Riddler:
1. The Riddler still got to kill his targets.
2. Batman ended up being lead by the Riddler. He even missed some Riddles.
3. Batman was not able to prevent the death of Falcone.
4. Batman was not able to stop the flooding of Gotham

I think this is fine, because it leads to character growth for Batman. By the end of the film, he has realized that being the embodiment of vengeance was not enough. Fear was not enough. He also had to strive for something more. Something more hopeful for the citizens of Gotham.

 

[lordnastrond]

Listen @OT_Customs_

I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to upset you and I'm sure you never mean't to upset me.
I've just had a minute to cool off.
Its great that we are both so passionate about things we love and its okay if we don't agree because ultimately we are united by our love for this one single, unusual, incredibly nerdy hobby.
There is no need for either of us to descend into comments that are, frankly, beneath us and for my part in it I sincerely apologize for what I have said.
I won't delete those comments as to do so now, I feel, would be the same as pretending I never made them - which is wrong.
But I do apologize for them - unreservedly.

I do hope we can move past this and showcase our better selves in the future.
All the best.

 

[user 72759]

Listen @OT_Customs_

I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to upset you and I'm sure you never mean't to upset me.
I've just had a minute to cool off.
Its great that we are both so passionate about things we love and its okay if we don't agree because ultimately we are united by our love for this one single, unusual, incredibly nerdy hobby.
There is no need for either of us to descend into comments that are, frankly, beneath us and for my part in it I sincerely apologize for what I have said.
I won't delete those comments as to do so now, I feel, would be the same as pretending I never made them - which is wrong.
But I do apologize for them - unreservedly.

I do hope we can move past this and showcase our better selves in the future.
All the best.

Sounds good to me, and if anything I think it may have been an argument based on me failing to clearly articulate my point.

If I gave the impression I was focusing on the comprehensiveness of anyones victory then I failed to make my point. TDK is definitely meant to be an ESB style low point in the trilogy for Batman but I think they manage to give Batman some solid wins despite his larger mission getting derailed.

The Batman definitely ends on a note more similar to Batman Begins where the villain is only partially successful and there’s a mess left to clean up.

My complaint with the film is I felt they didn’t find a way to write in some wins for Batman other than saving people in the climax. For me, the expectation that Batman can save people in immediate danger is just a given and I enjoy seeing moments where his planning or insights give him a win.

The one mentioned elsewhere ITT about Batman getting the riddle about Falcone BEFORE he is killed would have been iconic. I think Pattinson could have really sold us on him making that realization about the literal “light” he was about to step into and saved Falcone just in time. The rest of the movie could have played out much the same too and it would have still given Batman that one little moment where he got ahead of the curve. Without a scene like that it just feels like Batman is only along for the ride the whole time.

I think a good example from TDK I had forgotten until now is him saving Reese. It’s a little moment but it just goes to show that Batman can use every tool at his disposal to save as many people as possible. The payoff when Reese realizes Batman saved his life as Bruce Wayne is fantastic.

I feel like moments like that were absent from The Batman and that the movie suffers for it. That was my only original point. Sorry it took all this for me to make that clear.

Edit: Also this is all still Wor-gar’s fault

 

[Wor-Gar]

I love when people are reasonable.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The one mentioned elsewhere ITT about Batman getting the riddle about Falcone BEFORE he is killed would have been iconic. I think Pattinson could have really sold us on him making that realization about the literal “light” he was about to step into and saved Falcone just in time.

I actually love this idea. And by saving Falcone, it would almost be Batman's fault when Falcone becomes an even bigger killer/problem in future stories. The irony would wreak.

 

[user 72759]

I love when people are reasonable.

I hope you saw my edit

 

[lordnastrond]

Sounds good to me, and if anything I think it may have been an argument based on me failing to clearly articulate my point.

If I gave the impression I was focusing on the comprehensiveness of anyones victory then I failed to make my point. TDK is definitely meant to be an ESB style low point in the trilogy for Batman but I think they manage to give Batman some solid wins despite his larger mission getting derailed.

The Batman definitely ends on a note more similar to Batman Begins where the villain is only partially successful and there’s a mess left to clean up.

My complaint with the film is I felt they didn’t find a way to write in some wins for Batman other than saving people in the climax. For me, the expectation that Batman can save people in immediate danger is just a given and I enjoy seeing moments where his planning or insights give him a win.

The one mentioned elsewhere ITT about Batman getting the riddle about Falcone BEFORE he is killed would have been iconic. I think Pattinson could have really sold us on him making that realization about the literal “light” he was about to step into and saved Falcone just in time. The rest of the movie could have played out much the same too and it would have still given Batman that one little moment where he got ahead of the curve. Without a scene like that it just feels like Batman is only along for the ride the whole time.

I think a good example from TDK I had forgotten until now is him saving Reese. It’s a little moment but it just goes to show that Batman can use every tool at his disposal to save as many people as possible. The payoff when Reese realizes Batman saved his life as Bruce Wayne is fantastic.

I feel like moments like that were absent from The Batman and that the movie suffers for it. That was my only original point. Sorry it took all this for me to make that clear.

Edit: Also this is all still Wor-gar’s fault

Okay, I think I get what you are saying a lot more now.
Thanks for that - I appreciate it.
And yeah - I totally see what you mean and I agree that some alterations like that would have elevated it and given Pattinson's Batman some more moments to showcase his skill and give him a few more solidly heroic achievements against Riddler.
The Falcone idea in particular I think is brilliant and would have been an awesome moment in the movie.
I would have loved a few seemingly little, but key, changes like that.

 

[lordnastrond]

I actually love this idea. And by saving Falcone, it would almost be Batman's fault when Falcone becomes an even bigger killer/problem in future stories. The irony would wreak.

Hell one of the sequels could have been Falcone's trial and it could have him throwing acid in Harvey's face - making it indirectly Bruce's fault.
Also John Turturro killed it as Falcone in my opinion - I'd happily have more of him in the role, eventually becoming the last old-school gangster in a Gotham increasingly under the rule of lunatics and freaks.

 

[ironwez20]

New Batman show canceled

 

[Wor-Gar]

Edit: Also this is all still Wor-gar’s fault

 

[user 72759]

There would be some poetry in a Wayne once again saving Falcone, even if it went unknown. I think it was also the perfect moment in the film to indicate that the balance of power was shifting and having Batman prevent the last murder before the climax would have amped up the tension between him and Riddler.

If done tastefully you could also have Batman save Falcone and get to Riddler to arrest him before the police. Having him grapple into the apartment might be corny but there’s a way it could have been done.

You could still have the little “Bruuuuuuuuuce Wayyyyyyne” moment in Arkham and have Riddler really distressed and angered that Batman foiled his last murder.

I guess in a sense Batman did foil one murder, his own, but it was only because he was taking too long on another riddle…

Edit: Wait a second… All the murders were pretty complex except Bruce Wayne’s, He literally just mailed him a bomb. Is there any depth to that I am missing? What was the purpose of sending Batman to the orphanage other than that the plot needed him to not be where the bomb was?

 

[Hando]

How ******* stupid is thomas wayne really? He tells falcone to 'deal' with a reporter to protect his wife. Then he gets surprised when falcone kills the reporter and he tells him after he does that that he will go tell the police about him and puts himself and his wife and bruce in danger. What a ******* moron

 

[Hando]

Question to everyone. If there is an APB on batman then why when Catwoman turns on the signal the cops dont think to go there and arrest him?

 

[Wor-Gar]

The more I watch this, the more I like Catwoman.

 

[Hando]

If they make a mr freeze for the sequel I imagine he should be a serial killer like the ice truck killer in dexter. He would freeze people or something and drain them of their blood and maybe turn them into exhibit pieces out of spite for the death of his wife or something. His cold heartness and methods will earn him the title freeze.

I also want more gordon and batman team up investigative thriller and I will prefer if they dont bring back catwoman

 

[batfan08]

If they make a mr freeze for the sequel I imagine he should be a serial killer like the ice truck killer in dexter. He would freeze people or something and drain them of their blood and maybe turn them into exhibit pieces out of spite for the death of his wife or something. His cold heartness and methods will earn him the title freeze.

I also want more gordon and batman team up investigative thriller and I will prefer if they dont bring back catwoman

Absolutely not. I fail to see how this would be betraying the spirit or intentions of Reeves’ Batman universe:

 

[ironwez20]

I don’t want a “realistic” take on mr freeze. Give me the cold gun and a man trapped in a machine and can’t get warm. The Batman explored the gritty nature of gotham let this explore the more fantasy elements of the world.

Reason why I hate the dark knight rises is they tried way to hard to make everything so realistic it didn’t feel like Batman anymore it felt like it was trying hard to distance itself from what made Batman great. That “robin” reveal. What a joke. Bane being just a strong man in a mask and catwoman is just a woman in leather. Very boring.

I love the dark and gritty tone but It’s overdone

 

[Wor-Gar]

I agree... but I would like Freeze a little more grounded than they have done before.

No way I want him to be a serial killer in an ice truck. That's way too pedestrian.

Keep the bubbleboy suit to control his body temp, thus giving him his Goldfinger-esque fascination with Cold. Coldfinger. I'm not sure about a "freeze ray". That's where it gets too silly. I'm sure there's something more realistic yet better than just a fire extinguisher. Also, simply having an icy Gotham at winter would help the atmosphere.

The fantasy level that I don't want to see is Killer Croc or Clayface or Firefly on a jetpack or even Poison Ivy. Without her man-eating plants and octopus vines, she's really not interesting if devolved into an eco-terrorist who uses poison. The get-up is 90% of what makes her interesting, sadly. I know, ironwez and I diverge from agreement here.

 

[ironwez20]

I agree... but I would like Freeze a little more grounded than they have done before.

No way I want him to be a serial killer in an ice truck. That's way too pedestrian.

Keep the bubbleboy suit to control his body temp, thus giving him his Goldfinger-esque fascination with Cold. Coldfinger. I'm not sure about a "freeze ray". That's where it gets too silly. I'm sure there's something more realistic yet better than just a fire extinguisher. Also, simply having an icy Gotham at winter would help the atmosphere.

The fantasy level that I don't want to see is Killer Croc or Clayface or Firefly on a jetpack or even Poison Ivy. Without her man-eating plants and octopus vines, she's really not interesting if devolved into an eco-terrorist who uses poison. The get-up is 90% of what makes her interesting, sadly. I know, ironwez and I diverge from agreement here.

Poison ivy could work as a poison specialist who uses plants to manipulate and poison people. I think it could work with her bringing plants to life.