The Batman (June 25, 2021)

[Wor-Gar]

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful tool, to the uninitiated.

You’re choosing to ignore it because it doesn’t fit your predisposition.

No amount of mental gymnastics can remove that fact from the film just because you didn’t like it for subjective reasons.

OK, let's get this out of the way first: no need for back-handed comments. I don't believe I made any assumptions about your personal opinion.

On to the constructive conversation. You made a comparison, and I simply brought up similarities to the Joker in TDK as far as him never quite being outsmarted.

I agree, Dent was a back-up plan, Joker's ace in the hole -- much like Riddler, Joker said he couldn't win in a fist fight with Batman. So if the Riddler's ace in the hole was those "fringe" guys, then The Batman spoiled that plan as much as Baleman stopped Harvey.

The one difference I see if that The Batman has nothing to do with putting Riddler in jail, yet TDK Batman did catch Joker and, consequently, responsible for sending him to jail. But then, Riddler also wanted to go to jail and be safe -- in the same way Joker wanted to get arrested to get to the money guy.

I'm still wrapping my head around all this...

 

[Luisenigma1]

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful tool, to the uninitiated.

The Batman’s Batman only even gets to the climax because a side character gives him the hint he needs to unravel the Riddler’s plot after it’s basically too late. He literally never is ahead of the curve at all. He gets there barely in time to save some people but he doesn’t really stop or solve anything in the whole film.

Joker’s entire point as a character is that he’s Batman’s intellectual equal. Riddler often gets embarrassed and frustrated by not being able to foil Batman. It’s a completely unlike comparison based on the source material.

None of this negates the fact that Batman does outsmart the Joker in the film. You’re choosing to ignore it because it doesn’t fit your predisposition.

Joker “Wins” in the film but not by defeating Batman. He wins by corrupting Dent as a backup plan. That doesn’t mean Joker wanted to fail with the ferries, Batman still unequivocally stopped Joker’s plan with the ferries and it wouldn’t have been stopped without Batman’s actions. No amount of mental gymnastics can remove that fact from the film just because you didn’t like it for subjective reasons.

We get it you love TDK trilogy and anything else Batman (even though some are a bit more accurate to the source material then Bale's) sucks or is an after thought. Regardless though we can agree to disagree is the best option in this case, I love Nolan's films of course but it's definitely a different more grounded take on the character, same with The Batman but It was closer to source material in terms of Gotham city and how Batman acts more like a detective. And yes it's in the early years so he isn't the worlds greatest detective just yet so he is still growing, which is what they where going for since they used Earth one as inspiration.

 

[user 72759]

OK, let's get this out of the way first: no need for back-handed comments. I don't believe I made any assumptions about your personal opinion.

On to the constructive conversation. You made a comparison, and I simply brought up similarities to the Joker in TDK as far as him never quite being outsmarted.

I agree, Dent was a back-up plan, Joker's ace in the hole -- much like Riddler, Joker said he couldn't win in a fist fight with Batman. So if the Riddler's ace in the hole was those "fringe" guys, then The Batman spoiled that plan as much as Baleman stopped Harvey.

The one difference I see if that The Batman has nothing to do with putting Riddler in jail, yet TDK Batman did catch Joker and, consequently, responsible for sending him to jail. But then, Riddler also wanted to go to jail and be safe -- in the same way Joker wanted to get arrested to get to the money guy.

I'm still wrapping my head around all this...

I could have improved my tone.

My point is that, at the end of The Batman, Batman comes off as almost a patsy for Riddler. All of his actions unintentionally supported the Riddler’s mission and Batman only “solved” things he was meant to solve because Riddler was not hiding anything from Batman, from his perspective he was speaking to him through code as to an accomplice. If Batman wasn’t in The Batman the difference of events would be that Falcone would still be alive and more people would have died at GSG. That make’s Batman seem not that effective IMO. He never has a real victory in the movie.

In Begins, without Batman Falcone would still be ruling Gotham until Ra’s destroyed it through fear gas. Batman’s actions made a clear impact that saved 90% of the city.

In The Dark Knight the police wouldn’t have even found Joker in time to stop the ferries without Batman’s help, if they did find Joker they would have killed the hostages and met strong resistance from all the goons they didn’t snipe. Batman saved everyone in that building and the ferries and it wouldn’t have happened without him.

In Rises Batman makes a lot of mistakes early on due to his psychological state but at the end he saves a city that was about to be completely destroyed and he didn’t just show up to fight he enacts a multipart plan to jam the detonator and stop the trigger man.

My point is that in each TDK film Batman has a victory and is ahead of the villain at some point and in some way saves the day at the end in away that couldn’t have happened without him. That doesn’t happen once in The Batman, and even though I’m generally positive on the film, I think that aspect is underwhelming.

 

[BigWayne]

It might be worth mentioning that the joker was actually “winning” well into tdkr, even without being present. Lest we forget that batman was wanted for murder and forced to retire for several years as a result of the joker’s “backup plan”.

His corruption of dent was so complete that it even forced gordon’s resignation letter, which ultimately would have led to the repeal of the dent act and freeing those that had been incarcerated in tdk. In fact, the reading of that speech is a considerable part of the leverage bane had to release all of the blackgate prisoners (plus, a nuclear weapon didn’t hurt).

It’s true that the speech was read by bane, but gordon said he would ultimately read it at the appropriate time.

More chaos either way. The joker effectively undoes everything the batman accomplished.

 

[user 72759]

I never said Batman won in TDK, I said he outsmarted the Joker and he does a couple times in the movie. Even though Joker wins the “war” Batman still ends the movie heroically by stopping Joker at the ferries and saving Gordon’s son.

 

[Hando]

When he found him, alerted the police to his location, saved all the hostages dressed as clowns, stopped all the henchmen dressed as doctors, and several swat teams and then directly stopped Joker from blowing up the ferries.

It was a blink and you’d miss it throw away moment honestly. Even well intentioned totally not intellectually dishonest people could have missed it.

I wouldn't say he outsmarted him. Batman maybe won that one battle in the end but the joker accomplished everything he wanted to do and was able to break dent and push batman to break his rule in the end. The only way batman was able to "win" really is by taking the blame and building a lie around what happened with gordon. It was a false win. Not really much of a win if you ask me. That is why I love the joker. He has a lasting presence that is felt through every scene in that film even when he is absent and it continues on in the dark knight rises. In the scene when batman is beating up joker you can still hear the joker theme playing because even tho it looks like batman has the upper hand it is really the joker who is in control in the larger picture. That is kind of the general tone in the entire film start to finish. It is the same in the scene with the hostages. Batman saves them and foils that plan but he is still a pawn making moves in jokers game.

 

[Hando]

In the scene when batman is beating up joker you can still hear the joker theme playing because even tho it looks like batman has the upper hand it is really the joker who is in control. That is kind of the general feeling throughout the entire film start to finish. It is the same in the scene with the hostages. he saves them and foils that plan but he is still the pawn in jokers game.

 

[Hando]

Here is what I hate about the Batman film. Feel free to discuss.

The entire last act was a big disservice to the film. 1 because they felt they have to make the riddler do something ridiculous and needlessly evil to make him out to be the bad guy and get us to root for batman instead. Because up until that point really riddler was pretty much the hero of the film. You could follow him because he was the one rooting out the corruption.. his motives seemed to be clear and focused. But his plans in the end dont add up to his character in the rest of the film. He just decides to do some random evil stuff. Because the studio probably said we cant let people side with the "bad guy" so make him do bad things. Make batman the good guy!!

2 because in that last act also they try to turn the film into a spectacle. Probably again part of meeting a Hollywood checklist. Batman is falling into explosions and fighting an army and stuff and again it feels so conflicting with the rest of the film.

By the way how do they fail to kill the candidate ??? There are 6 people aiming at her with snipers while she is standing still and they even hit her.. with a sniper bullet!!! And she just walks it off!!


that last chunk could have made the film but it broke it for me instead

 

[BigWayne]

By the way how do they fail to kill the candidate ??? There are 6 people aiming at her with snipers while she is standing still and they even hit her.. with a sniper bullet!!! And she just walks it off!!

Did you see how thick their glasses were?


Maybe it’s a sad commentary on how people are today, but I have to admit, up to the point that he started killing indiscriminately, I was rooting for the joker, as well. He was playing the batman like a fiddle to get what he wanted, which, up until that time, was justice. Plus, the batman seemed to be ok with some of it, particularly when it was “a corrupt cop”.

In the end, I feel like he had to do something really reprehensible to truly achieve “super villain” status. IMO, that’s when he made the leap from the type of murder/criminal that goes to jail, to someone really diabolical that goes to arkham.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[Luisenigma1]

Here is what I hate about the Batman film. Feel free to discuss.

The entire last act was a big disservice to the film. 1 because they felt they have to make the riddler do something ridiculous and needlessly evil to make him out to be the bad guy and get us to root for batman instead. Because up until that point really riddler was pretty much the hero of the film. You could follow him because he was the one rooting out the corruption.. his motives seemed to be clear and focused. But his plans in the end dont add up to his character in the rest of the film. He just decides to do some random evil stuff. Because the studio probably said we cant let people side with the "bad guy" so make him do bad things. Make batman the good guy!!

2 because in that last act also they try to turn the film into a spectacle. Probably again part of meeting a Hollywood checklist. Batman is falling into explosions and fighting an army and stuff and again it feels so conflicting with the rest of the film.

By the way how do they fail to kill the candidate ??? There are 6 people aiming at her with snipers while she is standing still and they even hit her.. with a sniper bullet!!! And she just walks it off!!


that last chunk could have made the film but it broke it for me instead

I don't think that was the point they were going for. Lol the Riddler wanted to root out corruption and also kill those involved in it, even people who didn't have anything to do with it intentionally like Thomas Wayne. To him Thomas was corrupt and renewal was a front and lie, not knowing that it was real and Thomas Wayne wanted to help but made the mistake of asking Falcone for help on the issue with the reporter trying to create a scandal around Martha being mentally ill. But to Riddler Thomas only cared about his campaign as mayor and wanted someone silenced and the whole renewal thing was a lie. That's why he also hated Bruce Wayne and wanted to kill him because even though Bruce had nothing to do with anything he hated him for being more important then he was, that's also why he wanted to have his minions kill people and Monica the mayoral candidate at GSG, because he didn't believe in them or trusted they were actually trying to help the city. He had a grudge against everyone, it was good he directed it towards the corrupt but he also directed it to innocent people who didn't have anything to do with his "trauma". If you also watch the deleted scene with the Joker at Arkham, he tells Batman while reading the files when asked if his motives where political, "No No this is very personal to him, he feels like these people have all wronged him" it just shows the Riddler is unhinged and had a grudge with everyone who promises "change".

 

[Hando]

I don't think that was the point they were going for. Lol the Riddler wanted to root out corruption and also kill those involved in it, even people who didn't have anything to do with it intentionally like Thomas Wayne. To him Thomas was corrupt and renewal was a front and lie, not knowing that it was real and Thomas Wayne wanted to help but made the mistake of asking Falcone for help on the issue with the reporter trying to create a scandal around Martha being mentally ill. But to Riddler Thomas only cared about his campaign as mayor and wanted someone silenced and the whole renewal thing was a lie. That's why he also hated Bruce Wayne and wanted to kill him because even though Bruce had nothing to do with anything he hated him for being more important then he was, that's also why he wanted to have his minions kill people and Monica the mayoral candidate at GSG, because he didn't believe in them or trusted they were actually trying to help the city. He had a grudge against everyone, it was good he directed it towards the corrupt but he also directed it to innocent people who didn't have anything to do with his "trauma". If you also watch the deleted scene with the Joker at Arkham, he tells Batman while reading the files when asked if his motives where political, "No No this is very personal to him, he feels like these people have all wronged him" it just shows the Riddler is unhinged and had a grudge with everyone who promises "change".

That Joker scene by the way was one of the most interesting scenes in the film and would have made that small cameo in the end much less forced and sequel baited. Should have kept it in dammit

 

[Luisenigma1]

That Joker scene by the way was one of the most interesting scenes in the film and would have made that small cameo in the end much less forced and sequel baited. Should have kept it in dammit

I agree it also would have added more of a different perspective about the Riddler and his motives. Plus at least we would have seen that joker was present and was Batman's first villain he caught at the start of his second year. It also would be a nice change of pace that he wasn't the main villain but he was always there and Matt Reeves said it was his idea for that to be a Hannibal Lector moment.

 

[Bleah]

I think both Batmans weren't good detectives. Lol! I'll put Baleman up by one only because he managed to save his former employee from being gunned down by the distressed cop. Patman was always being led by the Riddler around.

Thinking about it, the Riddler could have dragged Falcone out and shot him any time he wanted. He had all the evidence of his and other's involvement in the Wayne fund corruption, right? Kill the other city employees, leak the evidence out to the press or internet, Falcone gets "arrested" and dragged out of his club, and then shoot him. Same process. He didn't really need Patman to make his plans happen.

And come on guys, we know OT is very passionate about the TDK trilogy and will defend it, faults and all.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I could have improved my tone.

My point is that, at the end of The Batman, Batman comes off as almost a patsy for Riddler. All of his actions unintentionally supported the Riddler’s mission and Batman only “solved” things he was meant to solve because Riddler was not hiding anything from Batman, from his perspective he was speaking to him through code as to an accomplice.

My point is that in each TDK film Batman has a victory and is ahead of the villain at some point and in some way saves the day at the end in away that couldn’t have happened without him.

I do agree that The Batman is led along by the Riddler and is reactive more than proactive much of the time. And I do see how at the end there is a sense on non-accomplishment for The Batman -- I'm not particularly fond of the third act and kind of wish the movie ended with Riddler in jail scene... and then that really would go to your point. I think the tagged on ending is to help give Batman something to fight back on; to save the people of Gotham that Riddler would have drowned. I really didn't understand flooding Gotham besides getting people wet up to their waists. But don't get me started on that 3rd act.

 

[davejames]

Here is what I hate about the Batman film. Feel free to discuss.

The entire last act was a big disservice to the film. 1 because they felt they have to make the riddler do something ridiculous and needlessly evil to make him out to be the bad guy and get us to root for batman instead. Because up until that point really riddler was pretty much the hero of the film. You could follow him because he was the one rooting out the corruption.. his motives seemed to be clear and focused. But his plans in the end dont add up to his character in the rest of the film. He just decides to do some random evil stuff. Because the studio probably said we cant let people side with the "bad guy" so make him do bad things. Make batman the good guy!!

2 because in that last act also they try to turn the film into a spectacle. Probably again part of meeting a Hollywood checklist. Batman is falling into explosions and fighting an army and stuff and again it feels so conflicting with the rest of the film.

By the way how do they fail to kill the candidate ??? There are 6 people aiming at her with snipers while she is standing still and they even hit her.. with a sniper bullet!!! And she just walks it off!!


that last chunk could have made the film but it broke it for me instead

I would never go so far as to call Riddler a hero, but I agree the ending felt needlessly over the top and tacked on. But that's kinda been the case with most Batman movies. They always kind of lose me a bit with these grandiose final acts.

 

[Hando]

I do agree that The Batman is led along by the Riddler and is reactive more than proactive much of the time. And I do see how at the end there is a sense on non-accomplishment for The Batman -- I'm not particularly fond of the third act and kind of wish the movie ended with Riddler in jail scene... and then that really would go to your point. I think the tagged on ending is to help give Batman something to fight back on; to save the people of Gotham that Riddler would have drowned. I really didn't understand flooding Gotham besides getting people wet up to their waists. But don't get me started on that 3rd act.

It would have been good if that jail scene was where the film ended but if riddler had revealed a major revelation to batman in that exchange and essentially left the film on a twist.

I also wish they didnt backtrack on the waynes being corrupt. It is the most interesting idea in years and they do it then do an immediate 180. Whyyy. Let his parents legacy be a lie. Let them be corrupt!! Play that out!!

Sometimes I wonder if matt reeves is the right guy for the job.. he seems great at execution but really bad at making the creative decisions hes executing

Again. The Batman is just very flawed for me. It wouldn't even make my top 5 live action batman list. My takeaway from it is the character and setting and tone were freaking fantastic. But the story doesn't hold any of it together. Its really unfortunate..

 

[Wor-Gar]

It would have been good if that jail scene was where the film ended but if riddler had revealed a major revelation to batman in that exchange and essentially left the film on a twist.

I also wish they didnt backtrack on the waynes being corrupt. It is the most interesting idea in years and they do it then do an immediate 180. Whyyy. Let his parents legacy be a lie. Let them be corrupt!! Play that out!!

I agree with this.

I liked that Batman thought Riddler knew who he was, then it gets revealed that he doesn't... but I always thought it would be cool if Riddler did know and just did that to get Batman off the scent. Or leave the scene where we just don't know -- does Riddler know or not? Is this another mind game?

Also, if he said something like: I'm just the beginning. That opens it up.

I do also like the idea that Batman's own parents are part of the 'problem' Batman is trying to solve. I can see why people don't like it -- but for me, it really isolates Batman, it takes 'vengeance' right out of the equation suddenly, and forces Batman to really look at what he's doing and why. You can always play the duality of life; that the Waynes were good people but flawed like all of us.

 

[Hando]

Sorry if Im rambling

The thing that annoys the **** out of me is all the backtracking and Im not talking about the club they keep going back in and out of. I mean all the creative backtracking and fake outs!

They kill alfred then they dont kill alfred. They make the waynes corrupt then they dont make the waynes corrupt. Riddler know who batman is then riddler doesnt know who batman is. Theres a lot of that in the film. Its like for every interesting thing they touch on they immediately retreat back to a safe position... The film is a lot of things but bold and daring is not one of them and I think that is something that films are missing today

 

[Hando]

Its part of why I love snyder.. he will do things that others wont and he isnt shy of taking a risk even if its part of why he is a controversial director. He will force his characters to make difficult decisions not come up with a convenient solution to appease every one

 

[Saintv1]

The film pretty much spells out why Batman is the hero and Riddler is the villain, even withput considering Riddler's massacre: one of them is trying to actually make things better, and understands how he must grow and that his methods have to change to achieve that. The other is just inflicting pain to make himself feel better. Everything the Riddler does is about hurting, not helping.

Riddler's massacre is entirely consistent with his character: regardless of whatever crap comes out of his mouth, all he really cares about is hurting people.