Somehow Rey Returned

[Lorddrizzt]

Simple as that...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Exactly. And honestly the PT still did far more to hurt my enjoyment of the OT because of how badly it fumbled Anakin's story and undermined Vader.

With it not being written by Lucas the ST is far easier to dismiss as just a series of fan films if you don't like its portrayal of the characters or their post-ROTJ lives.

Yeah, the ST is automatically easier to compartmentalize away because of the lack of involvement from Lucas. And if more movies get made with ST characters, no one from Disney will be pointing a loaded gun at any fan to force them into watching it.

I'm not watching Mando S3, and won't watch any of the animated shows, because I've learned that the Filoniverse and his SW sensibilities don't appeal to me at all. But plenty of fans *do* enjoy that stuff, so let them keep having it. No big deal. If the SW landscape wasn't already so littered with mediocrity, I might be singing a different tune; but that ship has sailed so long ago that I can't even see it from the shore anymore.

I thought TROS was a slapdash embarrassment that left me with a very sour taste, but if they want to bring Rey back to try to give that film (and the trilogy as a whole) more purpose in the long run, have at it.

What I ask is that there PLEASE be more of an effort (across the board) to have story goals and a clear direction in place beforehand. I would like for LFL to stop just pumping out content without first having well-defined story purpose, an end game planned, and cohesive themes as building blocks for every project. Make the story worth telling, not just worth selling.

 

[davejames]

She never really struggled like other characters have though, she pretty much always came out on top. Anakin and Luke were both broken mentally and physically, they went through some **** and it took a toll on them and changed them.

Her characters entire existence is just wrong. Anakin was the "chosen one", he (with the help of Luke) brought balance to the force by destroying Palpatine. But nah, Disney had to undo all of that to make their new character into the best Jedi who ever lived.

Didn't struggle? She lived most of her life as a scavenger barely scraping by, was easily overpowered by Kylo and captured during their first encounter, got flung around like a rag doll by Snoke and was only saved by Kylo, and then found out (ugh) that she was a freakin Palpatine and daughter of the most evil person in the universe.

The ST certainly has a lot of storytelling issues, but Rey being too good with the force doesn't come close to being one of them in my book.

 

[chrisstbh]

Didn't struggle? She lived most of her life as a scavenger barely scraping by, was easily overpowered by Kylo and captured during their first encounter, got flung around like a rag doll by Snoke and was only saved by Kylo, and then found out (ugh) that she was a freakin Palpatine and daughter of the most evil person in the universe.

All we saw was her get slightly less bread than she apparently got before. And she got flung around and grazed her knee on a floor, ouch. Not getting into the Palpatine stuff, that’s worse than Lizzo.

They wrote in her being a Palpatine to justify her power last minute, so I think it is a problem. Her character became irredeemable as soon as they retconned the PT and OT.

 

[VintageDisney]

“Here’s all the content we SHOULDVE given you with Luke”

 

[Wor-Gar]

“Just enjoy the ride.”
“Sir, this is the Titanic.”

Kathleen doing that "Kathleen" thing again.


You do know that this dark, dismal period we are living through will become known as... The Kennedy Years.

 

[Otomofan]

Didn't struggle? She lived most of her life as a scavenger barely scraping by, was easily overpowered by Kylo and captured during their first encounter, got flung around like a rag doll by Snoke and was only saved by Kylo, and then found out (ugh) that she was a freakin Palpatine and daughter of the most evil person in the universe.

The ST certainly has a lot of storytelling issues, but Rey being too good with the force doesn't come close to being one of them in my book.

She lived on a desolate desert planet with no rain and under constant brutal heat from the sun.

Yet...she had perfectly smooth porcelain skin. A mouth of perfectly straight gleaming white teeth. Luxurious long silky hair that she could fashion into all kinds of silly shapes.

Doesn't look like she suffered much to me. And over the course of the next hour or so, we learn that she's super nice to lowly droids (but she's not very nice to dumb men) and she's an expert hand-to-hand combatant, can perfectly fly and even repair an antique spaceship she's never been been in, is a crack shot with a blaster the very first time she holds one, knows how to do the Jedi mind trick despite not even knowing what that is or ever having seen it, masters Force pulls on her first try, and completely overpowers and defeats Kylo Ren the first time she ignites a lightsaber. That's only the first movie. I never saw the last one so I have no idea what god-like powers she has in that one.

Nahhhh...she's not a perfect self-insert Mary Sue at all. We all must be smoking crack or something.

 

[lordnastrond]

My problem with Rey isn't that she's overpowered (because she kind of is, but the Force is utterly inconsistent over these films so its like whatever)
it isn't that everything sort of works out for her and all the characters revolve around her (this is a common problem in Star Wars films)

Its that she is an utter carbon-copy of Luke Skywalker - a nobody who lives on desert planet yearning for more unknowing of family history, nobody finds droid thats vital to the plot, escapes from the desert planet using the millenium falcon, is given a lightsaber belonging to a legendary Jedi, infiltrates planet sized superweapon that can destroy planets with older mentor figure to save the "rebels" against the "empire", older mentor is killed by masked dark force user and its sad, planet weapon is destroyed, goes on journey to find older secluded jaded jedi mentor to learn more about abilities, has to convince them to help, has to leave training early to save friends/day, fights bad guy but doesn't win, learns upsetting truth about parentage/lineage, older jedi mentor dies and fades away, sees good in the main masked dark force user and tries to move them to the light, is sort-of but not-overly tempted by the dark side, is related to a Sith, teams up with masked dark force user to kill Palpatine who appears to be winning by having it all be part of the plan, dark force user redeemed but dies in fight against Palpatine, goes on to establish new era for Jedi.....

It's the same thing!!!
Doesn't anyone notice this!!

 

[Mike86]

I'm not gonna debate the merits of the ST versus the PT or the portrayal of the characters. Been there, done that; doesn't change anyone's mind. But I can assure you that the fan hate of the PT back then wasn't just about them being poorly made films, and the prevailing sentiment was certainly *not* that those movies worked well with the original trilogy.

I was in my early 20's when the PT started and had grown up a huge OT fan, so I recall the fan reaction to the PT very vividly. Lucas went from untouchable hero icon to the object of merciless ridicule. Fans were (and are, in my case) pissed about how many contradictions existed with the OT. How Kenobi was made into a bigger liar, how Vader was diminished, how Yoda was completely reframed and compromised, how Boba Fett was done wrong, how the Jedi were not what Kenobi described to Luke... I could go on and on.

The People vs. George Lucas got made by dejected OT fans. Red Letter Media became a juggernaut based on hours of YouTube videos ripping the PT, in part because of the way those movies conflicted with the OT and were such a drastic departure from it in so many ways. Late-night talk shows were trashing it. Actors from the PT contemplated suicide as a result of the reaction and treatment they received from fans.

The selective memory in SW discussions for the last few years is incredible. The PT has enjoyed new life because the kids who grew up enjoying it got to watch those characters and plot points get fleshed out more in cartoons. Now those fans are starting to raise kids of their own and introducing them to the PT on their terms. Fair enough, and good for them. But let's not pretend that the PT was largely regarded by longtime fans as a positive extension of the lore. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And Lucas didn't care what the older fans thought. Nor should he have. Nor would he today.

I hated the prequels for a long time. Trust me I know the history and the discussions around them.

I’m just saying when you put it into perspective the prequels are a lot better and serve the story of the Skywalker Saga far better than the sequels.

The prequels are also aided by The Clone Wars which is arguably one of the best things to ever happen to Star Wars.

 

[chrisstbh]

My problem with Rey isn't that she's overpowered (because she kind of is, but the Force is utterly inconsistent over these films so its like whatever)
it isn't that everything sort of works out for her and all the characters revolve around her (this is a common problem in Star Wars films)

Its that she is an utter carbon-copy of Luke Skywalker - a nobody who lives on desert planet yearning for more unknowing of family history, nobody finds droid thats vital to the plot, escapes from the desert planet using the millenium falcon, is given a lightsaber belonging to a legendary Jedi, infiltrates planet sized superweapon that can destroy planets with older mentor figure to save the "rebels" against the "empire", older mentor is killed by masked dark force user and its sad, planet weapon is destroyed, goes on journey to find older secluded jaded jedi mentor to learn more about abilities, has to convince them to help, has to leave training early to save friends/day, fights bad guy but doesn't win, learns upsetting truth about parentage/lineage, older jedi mentor dies and fades away, sees good in the main masked dark force user and tries to move them to the light, is sort-of but not-overly tempted by the dark side, is related to a Sith, teams up with masked dark force user to kill Palpatine who appears to be winning by having it all be part of the plan, dark force user redeemed but dies in fight against Palpatine, goes on to establish new era for Jedi.....

It's the same thing!!!
Doesn't anyone notice this!!

We know, but at least Lukes story was well done in the OT.

 

[Prime Clone]

What I ask is that there PLEASE be more of an effort (across the board) to have story goals and a clear direction in place beforehand.

I hated the prequels for a long time. Trust me I know the history and the discussions around them.

I’m just saying when you put it into perspective the prequels are a lot better and serve the story of the Skywalker Saga far better than the sequels.

For all the PT's faults it at least had a story arc in place from the start (even if Lucas couldn't be bothered filling in the middle part himself).

I have to disagree about it diminishing Vader, however. I know Anakin was totally different to what people were expecting/wanting, but he had to be a normal, relatable (yes, even whiny) kid for his transformation to have weight. I concede it was still a leap too far for many folk.

 

[MyenShi]

For all the PT's faults it at least had a story arc in place from the start (even if Lucas couldn't be bothered filling in the middle part himself).

I have to disagree about it diminishing Vader, however. I know Anakin was totally different to what people were expecting/wanting, but he had to be a normal, relatable (yes, even whiny) kid for his transformation to have weight. I concede it was still a leap too far for many folk.

The biggest mistake to me was making Anakin a child in TPM when anything that happened to him as a child could've been told in a couple lines of dialogue or 5 minute flashback.

The lead PT film should've had Anakin and Obi-Wan with their Master/Padme dynamic already like AOTC so that the subsequent two films could've had the time to properly show Anakin develop into a charismatic Jedi and leader and then fall.

The Clone Wars helped to fix that but not till much later.

 

[ironwez20]

I still don't understand the "overpowered" thing, or how people didn't see her clearly struggling and on the retreat during that entire first battle with (an injured) Kylo. Was she just not supposed to know how to hold a lightsaber at all or something? Lol

If your main character bests the main antagonist in their first movie without any training then yea that’s a bit op and poor writing. I don’t want to hear any excuses. Kylo trained for years she didn’t

 

[ironwez20]

Also if they bring back finn. Please make him interesting. What they did to him was a travesty.

 

[davejames]

If your main character bests the main antagonist in their first movie without any training then yea that’s a bit op and poor writing. I don’t want to hear any excuses. Kylo trained for years she didn’t

So maybe she's naturally stronger in the force than Kylo, and was able to use it to get the upper hand at the end. Kylo was not a truth Sith after all, and was clearly emotionally unbalanced with some anger issues, so probably isn't the best person to judge anything against.

 

[lordnastrond]

Also if they bring back finn. Please make him interesting. What they did to him was a travesty.

Finn should have been the protagonist of the sequel trilogy - his backstory as a defecting Stormtrooper could have opened up many thematic and emotional dynamics that were left pretty much unexplored.

Rey should have been a villain - the "vader" of the series posing as a Force sensitive with remarkably similar background/outlook to Luke to earn the heroes trust/evoke their sympathies and gain access to Luke's Jedi school so that she might destroy it from within on behalf of her master - Thrawn, who is running the vestigial remains of the Empire (not the "First Order"). Also I would establish that the Empire (with Thrawn at its helm) has been fighting the war with the Rebellion this entire time (After all I assume at least SOME people wanted the Empire for it to remain for so long, and a GALAXY-wide organisation shouldn't completely collapse because its top official croaks) and despite them being a vastly diminished force and nowhere near the galaxy spanning power it once was, Thrawn's tactical genius has allowed them to remain a constant threat all these years.

That way both Finn and Rey begin appearing to be on the "other side" only for their true nature to shine through - making them compelling mirror images of one another, and Finn with his background as a Stormtrooper might empathize more with "Rey" as someone raised in the fascistic/almost cult-like culture of the remnant Empire and would want to redeem her, like he has been redeemed of his crimes, knowing that she never really had a choice before. She feels a draw towards the light and freedom Finn offers/the heroes represent, but in a dark mirror of the OT - Rey DOESN'T accept the chance of redemption but Thrawn has her eliminated anyway (simply because it isn't wise to keep someone so powerful around if their loyalty isn't absolute) and dies as a tragic villain in the second film.

Then Thrawn takes centre stage as not only the greater big-picture villain, but also as the emotional villain that the heroes feel personally drawn to defeat - essentially merging the roles of Palpatine and Vader in the OT into Thrawn.



I mean - it isn't rocket science to come up with some new ideas - simply remaking the plot of the OT again is so lazy and stupid I must assume the person who pitched the plot was taking the piss but the execs took the joke seriously.

 

[lordnastrond]

So maybe she's naturally stronger in the force than Kylo, and was able to use it to get the upper hand at the end. Kylo was not a truth Sith after all, and was clearly emotionally unbalanced with some anger issues, so probably isn't the best person to judge anything against.

I'm sorry mate but the audience shouldn't have to come up with excuses for bad writing.
The untrained hero defeating the main villain in the first film of the trilogy - whatever the mitigating circumstances, usually isn't a sign of good character development or plot pacing (exceptions exist but are rare).

 

[ZE_501]

I'm sorry mate but the audience shouldn't have to come up with excuses for bad writing.

Fan-splaining is a venerable Star Wars tradition.

 

[ZE_501]

Finn should have been the protagonist of the sequel trilogy - his backstory as a defecting Stormtrooper could have opened up many thematic and emotional dynamics that were left pretty much unexplored.

Rey should have been a villain - the "vader" of the series posing as a Force sensitive with remarkably similar background/outlook to Luke to earn the heroes trust/evoke their sympathies and gain access to Luke's Jedi school so that she might destroy it from within on behalf of her master - Thrawn, who is running the vestigial remains of the Empire (not the "First Order"). Also I would establish that the Empire (with Thrawn at its helm) has been fighting the war with the Rebellion this entire time (After all I assume at least SOME people wanted the Empire for it to remain for so long, and a GALAXY-wide organisation shouldn't completely collapse because its top official croaks) and despite them being a vastly diminished force and nowhere near the galaxy spanning power it once was, Thrawn's tactical genius has allowed them to remain a constant threat all these years.

That way both Finn and Rey begin appearing to be on the "other side" only for their true nature to shine through - making them compelling mirror images of one another, and Finn with his background as a Stormtrooper might empathize more with "Rey" as someone raised in the fascistic/almost cult-like culture of the remnant Empire and would want to redeem her, like he has been redeemed of his crimes, knowing that she never really had a choice before. She feels a draw towards the light and freedom Finn offers/the heroes represent, but in a dark mirror of the OT - Rey DOESN'T accept the chance of redemption but Thrawn has her eliminated anyway (simply because it isn't wise to keep someone so powerful around if their loyalty isn't absolute) and dies as a tragic villain in the second film.

Then Thrawn takes centre stage as not only the greater big-picture villain, but also as the emotional villain that the heroes feel personally drawn to defeat - essentially merging the roles of Palpatine and Vader in the OT into Thrawn.



I mean - it isn't rocket science to come up with some new ideas - simply remaking the plot of the OT again is so lazy and stupid I must assume the person who pitched the plot was taking the piss but the execs took the joke seriously.

Congrats, you just wrote a better ST.

 

[lordnastrond]

Congrats, you just wrote a better ST.

It doesn't take much!