Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (June 30th, 2023)

[ajp4mgs]

So you like Rian Johnson "putting people in their place?" Or how about Tim Miller? Both end up looking like fools because their films were awful. And if Indy 5 is bad - so will Mangold. People's digital idiocy lives forever.

As the old saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility. There is zero professionalism in someone in that position of power and influence having a schoolyard spat with some random they don't know on social media because they feel the need to "defend themselves." Only emotionally immature people with fragile egos conduct themselves in such manner. The work will defend them - if it's worthy.

And surely someone of that level has better things to be doing with their time. What does this achieve? Do they feel a win? Does it fill that void inside them that makes them feel so precious about someone else's ill-informed opinion?

And in your opinion that's it - the random is ill-informed - so Mangold should laugh and ignore it, knowing that his "masterpiece" will put all the naysayers in their place when it's released.

He's a nearly 60 year old man... where's the wisdom and maturity in his retaliatory actions?

Lead by example...

Yes, I like filmmakers putting people in their place whenever I believe those people deserve it. In Mangold's case, when false info is spread and a campaign is launched to discredit a film before it's been released, a narrative forms that biases people against it. That's a reality, albeit an unfortunate one. It puts the film, no matter how good or bad it is, in an unnecessary uphill battle. Word of mouth can be easily manipulated preemptively by people who want to frame it in a negative way. The film won't be able to speak for itself as easily as you're suggesting. Not these days; too many sheep following false shepherds.

To remedy that, I think it's perfectly appropriate to get a refutation straight from the horse's mouth. I see no value in continuing to let YouTubers profit off of slandering his work with unfounded accusations. They are talentless dweebs willing to make money off of criticizing people who actually have artistic skill and accomplishments in life. Mangold, Johnson, and Miller have forgotten more about high-level filmmaking and storytelling than some dude on YouTube with a plastic helmet has ever known. Same goes for the relative lack of knowledge possessed by trolls on Twitter.

I see no value in misinformed opinions; no value in opinions arrogantly presented as if they're fact; and no value in doing whatever it takes to get clicks. If I'm sick of it as an outsider, then I can only imagine how sick of it filmmakers (also athletes, musicians, etc.) are at this point. People have the right to be idiots, but others have the right to try to stop the spread of the idiocy contagion. "Emotionally immature people" exist in this equation, but I don't think it's the filmmakers.

I'm gonna give Indy 5 a fair shot because Mangold has earned that. The people he's bickering with, though? They've earned nothing.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Film is too passive for the youngsters of today. They can’t watch 10 minutes of a film at the cinema without pulling their phones out.

Sad but true. ADD is the future mind. It must be entertained.

 

[choombaz]

Sad but true. ADD is the future mind. It must be entertained.

I must not be a bad parent though if my eight year old can be enthralled by 3hr films!

 

[Wor-Gar]

I must not be a bad parent though if my eight year old can be enthralled by 3hr films!

Who knows what subliminal suggestions Cameron is pumping through that HFR...

 

[Prime Clone]

Film is too passive for the youngsters of today. They can’t watch 10 minutes of a film at the cinema without pulling their phones out.

The credits had barely started rolling on AWOW and my younger son was on TikTok.

Later my elder son pulled out his phone and started looking at TikTok mid-conversation.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The credits had barely started rolling on AWOW and my younger son was on TikTok.

Later my elder son pulled out his phone and started looking at TikTok mid-conversation.

 

[Khev]

I must not be a bad parent though if my eight year old can be enthralled by 3hr films!

My son loved AWOW (and is excited that we're going to see it in HFR tomorrow ) but my daughter pretty much had a full a-dev experience. Said her seat was uncomfortable, 3D gave her a headache, was super thirsty the whole movie, etc., and kind of had a bad overall experience as a result.

Though she had gone to Wakanda Forever with a friend a couple weeks before and I said "so did you end up thinking Wakanda was better then" and she laughed and said "oh gosh no Avatar was way better," lol.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Silence is golden

 

[JMT1979]

Check it out - the hubris is mind blowing:

Of course, humour is part of Star Wars, the difference is that the humour in ROTJ wasn't lame and was more subtle, while in TLJ it was lame and had the subtlety of a sledgehammer. As soon as I saw that scene with Huxley and Poe at the start and a few people in the cinema groaned, I had a bad feeling about the movie.

 

[a-dev]

My son loved AWOW (and is excited that we're going to see it in HFR tomorrow ) but my daughter pretty much had a full a-dev experience. Said her seat was uncomfortable, 3D gave her a headache, was super thirsty the whole movie, etc., and kind of had a bad overall experience as a result.

Dunno why but my reaction is Drax here

 

[Mandible]

Yes, I like filmmakers putting people in their place whenever I believe those people deserve it. In Mangold's case, when false info is spread and a campaign is launched to discredit a film before it's been released, a narrative forms that biases people against it. That's a reality, albeit an unfortunate one. It puts the film, no matter how good or bad it is, in an unnecessary uphill battle. Word of mouth can be easily manipulated preemptively by people who want to frame it in a negative way. The film won't be able to speak for itself as easily as you're suggesting. Not these days; too many sheep following false shepherds.

To remedy that, I think it's perfectly appropriate to get a refutation straight from the horse's mouth. I see no value in continuing to let YouTubers profit off of slandering his work with unfounded accusations. They are talentless dweebs willing to make money off of criticizing people who actually have artistic skill and accomplishments in life. Mangold, Johnson, and Miller have forgotten more about high-level filmmaking and storytelling than some dude on YouTube with a plastic helmet has ever known. Same goes for the relative lack of knowledge possessed by trolls on Twitter.

I see no value in misinformed opinions; no value in opinions arrogantly presented as if they're fact; and no value in doing whatever it takes to get clicks. If I'm sick of it as an outsider, then I can only imagine how sick of it filmmakers (also athletes, musicians, etc.) are at this point. People have the right to be idiots, but others have the right to try to stop the spread of the idiocy contagion. "Emotionally immature people" exist in this equation, but I don't think it's the filmmakers.

I'm gonna give Indy 5 a fair shot because Mangold has earned that. The people he's bickering with, though? They've earned nothing.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but by doing this all they do is feed those YouTube/Twitter trolls.

But I'm also fully aware my opinion is extremely subjective because I LOATHE social media in every form and what humanity has become because of it. We (as a species) simply do not have the emotional maturity to handle it. I've been screaming it would be our downfall since it first came out - and now it's worse than ever because there's never been a more divided, narcissistic time in human history.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'm less wondering about why directors would do it and more wondering about why the studios - who pay for all of that art - are okay with it.

They obviously trust directors with the vision and drive to get these huge projects pulled together in way that is inspired and appeals. But there's an element of risk when you get into virtual back-alley taunts and fisticuffs with people who have nothing to lose and everything to gain on social media. A director could take it one step too far and suddenly it's something that damages, perhaps seriously, a product the studio has hundreds of millions invested in. And they take that risk for what, to set the record straight... on Twitter? These people will always come back with more.

"Troubled production" rumors have been the bane of studios for decades but they mostly just kept silent or made basic denials. The fact these directors engage in the way they do with this new low in "troubled production" rumors (which is all these youtube allegations ultimately are) is the thing that for me is what's diminishing the fun culture of movies. It's the "don't stoop to their level" thing.

What gives these youtubers power is the fact that major figures like Mangold give them legitimacy by engaging with them, over and over. Without that, they'd have one quarter the number of views.

I appreciate the angle you're coming from, but I don't think we can compare this era of social media to any point prior. The scope and reach are unlike anything before, and it doesn't take much for even one individual to use it in a way that becomes more than just a nuisance to much larger entities.

Any good-for-nothing looking to gain in personal profile can master clickbaiting methodology and have a flock of hundreds of thousands of human sheep in virtually no time. This has been proven over and over again, and prior to the direct engagement of creators pushing back. Put together with other similarly-motivated good-for-nothings, you get potentially millions buying into the same triggering line of bullcrap. Studios used to have to worry about production trouble "leaks" as an industry issue, but be far less concerned about anything from non-credible origins. That's not the case anymore. Narratives on social media have faster and more expansive reach and influence.

The question becomes: When is it counter-productive to let losers with keyboards and cameras influence relevant numbers of would-be moviegoers without offering a response to their bull? I'm not claiming to have the definitive answer for that, and maybe you're right that the best answer is to never acknowledge it, but I'm inclined to believe that it's time for creators to try calling out bs peddlars more in order to expose the scheme. How many times can someone be proven to be making **** up before people tune out? I think Mangold (and his peers) can discredit the clickbait hustlers because the top creators/artists will always ultimately have more supporters than the losers who get proven wrong.

The onus is on each individual filmmaker to keep his cool and roast the fools in a targeted way without scorching the more innocent sheep who follow them.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but by doing this all they do is feed those YouTube/Twitter trolls.

But I'm also fully aware my opinion is extremely subjective because I LOATHE social media in every form and what humanity has become because of it. We (as a species) simply do not have the emotional maturity to handle it. I've been screaming it would be our downfall since it first came out - and now it's worse than ever because there's never been a more divided, narcissistic time in human history.

You'll get no argument from me on how loathsome the use of social media has been. I abhor it. There's very little I detest more in this world than watching someone willingly surrender independent thought to just echo the opinions of people they follow. That's the aspect I have a particular disgust for.

As to the Mangold issue, perhaps there's such a fine line between emotional immaturity and righteous (or strategic) pushback that we find ourselves disagreeing about what side of that line Mangold has been on as a result. I'll just refer to my post right before this one as to my reasoning why I think he's on the better side of the line.

 

[Mandible]

You'll get no argument from me on how loathsome the use of social media has been. I abhor it. There's very little I detest more in this world than watching someone willingly surrender independent thought to just echo the opinions of people they follow. That's the aspect I have a particular disgust for.

As to the Mangold issue, perhaps there's such a fine line between emotional immaturity and righteous (or strategic) pushback that we find ourselves disagreeing about what side of that line Mangold has been on as a result. I'll just refer to my post right before this one as to my reasoning why I think he's on the better side of the line.

The irony is we're basically saying virtually the same things, but when typing our discussion on a forum, and without clear context, things can go awry or be misinterpreted.

Imagine if the whole group of us that were discussing these issues here were sitting around a campfire, shooting the ****, hearing and debating our different points of view, everything would be clear as day and no doubt we'd all end up having a laugh at the insanity of the current world.

Remember the days when people used to look each other in the eye and have conversations, healthily agree to disagree, and still thoroughly enjoy their time together - even if they followed different teams

 

[Hezz00]

Happily disagree to disagree

 

[Khev]

To me, I just don't want to see these iconic visionaries I admire doing it. Maybe that's selfish and juvenile, but it ruins the illusion (yes, I still to some degree cherish that illusion even in the Weinstein-in-jail, Woody-as-pariah era.) I don't want to partly remember Ridley Scott or Denis Villeneuve for the times they burned a Twitter troll.

Agreed. It's so unbecoming, even if they are in the right.

And I remember just recently the online shallacking that Maverick took for "bending the knee to China," "going woke," threats of boycott and all that over the Taiwanese flag being removed from Tom Cruise's jacket. Did Kosinski, Cruise, or anyone else engage YouTubers and Twitter trolls to tell them to chill out, call them names, or give even the slightest hint that they were going to include the censored flag after all and to quit being paranoid?

No, they just quietly erased the CG mods to his jacket and let the original flags be clearly visible and we still don't fully know why or when they made that change because to this day they haven't made a statement on the subject one way or the other (that I'm aware of). And because Kosinski and company didn't throw a fit or demonize even the annoying fans the movie was allowed to come out and stand on its own two legs to massive critical and box office success with every single one of those enraged anti-woke influencers changing their tune and singing it's praises...largely in part because they weren't personally attacked or demonized by the filmmakers themselves.

I honestly think that the hate toward TLJ and SW in general wouldn't have reached anywhere near the fever pitch levels that we've seen if stupid RJ had just shut up and not taunted fans for months on end, and this is coming from someone who likes TLJ.

Gal Gadot was another celebrity who faced massive amounts of online ridicule when she was first cast as Wonder Woman for being too skinny and yet she just quietly embraced the challenge, posted workout videos of her trying to bulk up as she trained for the film and even when those pics received ridicule she still said nothing and just continued to post more workout pics showing the fandom that she was doing her best to meet expectations with a huge smile on her face. The movie came out, people enjoyed it and loved her portrayal and the rest is history. Compared to Brie Larson who took the opposite approach during the lead up to CM and now hardly anyone even wants her to succeed no matter how good any future MCU film she stars in turns out to be.

 

[wormlander]

Re filmmaker and actor opinions and comments I long ago dropped any kind of investigation into their private lives, junket interviews, tweets etc. Has zero value and I just stick to the movies themselves. That way I can be excited for Glass Onion tonight and Indy 5 next year and not have all the baggage referred to above. Reading these posts is like water off a ducks back.

I agree fully, except for Rians movies of which I have already watched the last one

 

[Otomofan]

Regardless of the social media back-and-forth bickering, I don't think there's any reason to lash out at those of us who genuinely feel this is going to be a lousy movie.

"Ohhh, so you already KNOW it's gonna be BAD even though it's not even OUT YET?? What are you PSYCHIC or something?"

No, I'm not psychic. I'm just basing my prediction on the evidence available to me. Disney has done nothing but put out terrible movies since acquiring the rights to Lucasfilm and I see no reason to anticipate this will be any different. It's called pattern recognition. It's how we evolved enough as a species to not get eaten by sabre-tooth tigers.

Or, as this wise sage so eloquently put it:

 

[ajp4mgs]

Regardless of the social media back-and-forth bickering, I don't think there's any reason to lash out at those of us who genuinely feel this is going to be a lousy movie.

"Ohhh, so you already KNOW it's gonna be BAD even though it's not even OUT YET?? What are you PSYCHIC or something?"

No, I'm not psychic. I'm just basing my prediction on the evidence available to me. Disney has done nothing but put out terrible movies since acquiring the rights to Lucasfilm and I see no reason to anticipate this will be any different. It's called pattern recognition. It's how we evolved enough as a species to not get eaten by sabre-tooth tigers.

Or, as this wise sage so eloquently put it:

Pattern recognition also goes for Mangold's work, though. If you're not a fan of his output, then cool, I can see why you'd have no room for optimism. Personally, I think he's earned some faith. Then again, so had Spielberg; and Crystal Skull still happened. So...

Should be interesting.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yeah, the pass for solid talent doesn't always equate. Everyone has their 1941 or Crystal Skull or Howard the Duck or WW84... Mangold is due.