Future of DC Films (DCEU)

[Alatar]

I actually liked that metropolis and gotham are next to each other. Kinda like the city you just don’t want to recognize. I always viewed metropolis peoole as stuck up successful types who look down on gotham and boast about having Superman .

It actually has appeared in the comics that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to one another across a bay! This is only in one comic, and it’s not the usual thing. But there is a precedent in the comics is what I’m saying. And at the 2020 DC Fandome Zack Snyder specifically used the term “elseworld” to describe his planned five film saga.

As a resident of the area, I’ve always pictured this something more like Metropolis is akin to Manhattan and Gotham is then like Jersey City, lol.

 

[matticus]

To be fair, a lot of movies that are considered great can be picked apart in this way as well. You can find plotholes all over the place if you start actively looking for them, etc.

I think we can assume that Clark may be broadly aware of who Bruce Wayne is. It isn’t necessarily that Clark doesn’t know of Bruce Wayne. He just didn’t recognize him by sight, i.e., wasn‘t familiar enough with his appearance. As a parallel to this irl, I’m a pretty knowledgeable, well informed member of society and I had no idea who Robert Bigelow was until after the “tic tac” ufo videos got released. I had never heard of him.

But if my theory is right about the scene below that never made it into the film, Clark lacking detailed detailed information about Bruce Wayne also serves to set up a scene where Clark decides to do a bit of investigation. Again, why this doesn’t appear in the film is baffling, though! (If I’m right that that’s what this scene is about.)

View attachment 572569

I would have liked to have seen a big reveal of discovery. But the movie just jumped along. Lex knew before the movie who Batman/SM was, Bruce looking like he already knew at the party and Clark first discovering at the party who Batman is.

 

[Alatar]

I agree that most films can be picked apart like that but in this case the illogical nature of the story immediately took me out of the movie. I like MoS and thought the Clark/Superman character was developed well but the Clark in BvS did not feel like the same character.

I agree he knew about Bruce Wayne, but his actions did not reflect that he did his homework on Batman's heroic past, which given Bruce's age would have been lengthy by this time and surely well documented at The DP given Gotham was located in Metropolis's backyard.

But this version is much more like Frank Miller’s TDKR Batman. In TDKR Batman is a veritable urban legend, regarded as something more like Bigfoot or the Mothman. And by the time Clark arrives on the scene in Metropolis its then 18 years into Batman’s career. He’s already headed down a morally dark road by then. By that time Clark is disturbed by Batman as acting like a fascist, i.e., as judge, jury, and executioner, ignoring constitutional rights, etc.

But that said, I do think that after Clark coducts his research into Bruce he almost without a doubt does see the good Batman has done early in his career. In the comics it’s canon that Superman has a genius level intellect. I think Clark would also surmise Bruce’s PTSD history. Again, why we are not shown this is perplexing. It’s confounding! Although I do have a theory as to why. I’m usually dragged for it, so I only trot it out upon request.

 

[Alatar]

I would have liked to have seen a big reveal of discovery. But the movie just jumped along. Lex knew before the movie who Batman/SM was, Bruce looking like he already knew at the party and Clark first discovering at the party who Batman is.

I agree. We’re only shown through dialogue where it is implied and nonverbal mannerisms that they already know identities. Except as you say for Clark, who especially after he overhears Bruce talking to Alfred figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman. That just cements it, though. He got the drift already through the subtext of the conversation with Bruce.

We’re left to infer all that. Why that is left for us to connect the dots fits into my theory for why so many of these things aren‘t shown to us directly, in a straightforward linear storytelling style.

 

[Alatar]

Would anyone like to hear my whacked theory?

 

[Alatar]

Hey we thought that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction lol

Actually, at the time that’s what was reported by all of NATO’s intelligence agencies, and there was reason to be concerned because Iraq had built 11 (!) subterranean so-called “royal palaces” that were off limits to the UN weapons inspectors. Hans Blix of the UN WMD inspection takes force believed that Iraq was indeed conducting research to develop WMD in those facilities. The worry was that in the wake of 911 Sadam Hussein, who had already had huge beef with the U.S. (and yes our own CIA created that monster, but that’s another kettle of fish) could get such weaponry into the hands of third party terrorist organizations such as Al Queda, Al Shibob, et al. Also the UN‘s army stood on the door step of Iraq for 9 months before finally invading. Iraq had plenty of opportunity to sneak out whatever they might have been working on prior to that in those underground facilities.

Just saying!

 

[The Buffinator]

Would anyone like to hear my whacked theory?

I can't speak for everyone but as for myself - no, not really!

 

[Alatar]

I can't speak for everyone but as for myself - no, not really!

Ahaha, no worries!

 

[Bravomite]

I agree that most films can be picked apart like that but in this case the illogical nature of the story immediately took me out of the movie. I like MoS and thought the Clark/Superman character was developed well but the Clark in BvS did not feel like the same character.

I agree he knew about Bruce Wayne, but his actions did not reflect that he did his homework on Batman's heroic past, which given Bruce's age would have been lengthy by this time and surely well documented at The DP given Gotham was located in Metropolis's backyard.

I thought that Clark’s approach to Batman made sense.

Batman in the movie was a jaded punisher version of Batman not the usual heroic one we would usually associate with the character. It was implied that he had been our more familiar caped crusader in the past but after the death of Robin and years of putting criminals away only to see them get straight back out he has changed. Now he acts as judge jury and executioner and that is not compatible with Superman’s way of doing things (unless your name is Zod… why’d you say that name… insert Snyder neck snapping gif here).

With that in mind I can see why he would tell Batman to give it up. He gives him some clemency based upon his past reputation (he trashes his car and not his neck) but tells him to hang up the cape because he’s no longer that “good guy”.

 

[Bleah]

I was just stirring the pot but IMO even more egregiously idiotic than Martha was the whole BvS setup in the first place. The givens:

- Gotham and Metropolis are twin cities separated by a bay;​

- Batman is a much older, established crime fighter in Gotham;​

- Clark works for a major metropolitan newspaper;​

- Clark dates/LIVES WITH a seasoned, award winning investigative reporter.​

Considering all of the above, we're to then believe that no one at The Daily Planet would give Clark the heads up about Batman's heroic past or that he wouldn't oh, I don't know, check their archives for info on him? Maybe google him? That he'd just get upset about him branding some thugs and ignorantly treat him as some run-of-the-mill vigilante, fly in as Superman and tell him to retire? I'm sorry, but that was beyond lame.

Having a plan is just the first step. Making sure it's a coherent plan is next, then comes the execution.

Wasn't it implied in the movie that Batman was only considered an urban legend/fictional and just something to scare people? Maybe that's why nobody really bothered investigating it. If that's the case also, then nobody would really know what good he accomplished, right? Superman being able to see and hear things from afar can easily pick up on his existence.

 

[The Buffinator]

But this version is much more like Frank Miller’s TDKR Batman. In TDKR Batman is a veritable urban legend, regarded as something more like Bigfoot or the Mothman. And by the time Clark arrives on the scene in Metropolis its then 18 years into Batman’s career. He’s already headed down a morally dark road by then. By that time Clark is disturbed by Batman as acting like a fascist, i.e., as judge, jury, and executioner, ignoring constitutional rights, etc.

But that said, I do think that after Clark coducts his research into Bruce he almost without a doubt does see the good Batman has done early in his career. In the comics it’s canon that Superman has a genius level intellect. I think Clark would also surmise Bruce’s PTSD history. Again, why we are not shown this is perplexing. It’s confounding! Although I do have a theory as to why. I’m usually dragged for it, so I only trot it out upon request.

Yeah but Snyder didn't even do a good job establishing that. An added line from Perry White (indicating his long term urban legend status) while he was warning Clark off the story was all it would have required. Without that (or showing Clark doing the research) most people fell back on their preconceived notions of the character, and hence that's where the plot fell apart for many moviegoers.

I would have liked to have seen a big reveal of discovery. But the movie just jumped along. Lex knew before the movie who Batman/SM was, Bruce looking like he already knew at the party and Clark first discovering at the party who Batman is.

Heck, IIRC in BvS ZS had Bruce develop Kryptonite weapons without any real intel that they'd be effective against Superman. All he really had to go on was that Lex Luthor was collecting the meteor fragments. Did Lex experiment on Zod's body and determine Kryptonite's negative effect and did Bruce hack into Lex's system and find that out? If so I must have nodded off during that part. We knew it was lethal, but how did Bruce know?

I agree. We’re only shown through dialogue where it is implied and nonverbal mannerisms that they already know identities. Except as you say for Clark, who especially after he overhears Bruce talking to Alfred figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman. That just cements it, though. He got the drift already through the subtext of the conversation with Bruce.

We’re left to infer all that. Why that is left for us to connect the dots fits into my theory for why so many of these things aren‘t shown to us directly, in a straightforward linear storytelling style.

Leaving minor stuff for the audience to infer is fine, but the motivations of your main characters' actions? Not so much.

 

[Alatar]

My theory about why we're not directly shown everything going on behind the scenes at first admittedly seems a stretch, but when applied it does work, at least for me.

First, can we agree that BvS is a deconstruction?

Here's Encyclopedia Britannica's definition of the concept for it's entry on the Watchmen comic:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Watchmen
Here it is for easy reference:

A deconstruction of classic comics, Watchmen considered how real-life superheroes would affect the world around them and how everyday people would react to them. The story begins with an apparent conspiracy to kill or neutralize costumed superheroes. At its conclusion, a more nefarious plot is uncovered, involving a staged alien invasion that kills thousands of residents of New York. The United States and the Soviet Union step back from the brink of nuclear war to confront this shared (and, unbeknownst to them, illusory) threat. Moore created a world previously unexplored in the genre—superheroes who were morally ambivalent—and his story line was complex, drawing heavily on irony, symbolism, and multiple perspectives to tell his tale.

As we know Snyder adapted Watchmen to film. Here's an interview with Snyder by WSJ that published the weekend that BvS released:

https://web.archive.org/web/2016032...er-on-how-batman-v-superman-is-like-watchmen/
And there's a lot of video interviews I could link where Snyder talks about this as well.

But anyway, BvS is a deconstruction, agreed?

 

[The Buffinator]

But anyway, BvS is a deconstruction, agreed?

Nah, I disagree. Just because I can.

 

[Alatar]

Darn! You win this round Buffinator! (*shakes fist at the sky*) But next time…

 

[matticus]

Yeah but Snyder didn't even do a good job establishing that. An added line from Perry White (indicating his long term urban legend status) while he was warning Clark off the story was all it would have required. Without that (or showing Clark doing the research) most people fell back on their preconceived notions of the character, and hence that's where the plot fell apart for many moviegoers.

I realize that Lois might have been the worst issue for Superman/Clark. Both are doing investigations when really you should just be doing one. Clark/SM should have been doing the investigating while he goes to Lois for advice. Too much of the same thing is a bad thing.

Heck, IIRC in BvS ZS had Bruce develop Kryptonite weapons without any real intel that they'd be effective against Superman. All he really had to go on was that Lex Luthor was collecting the meteor fragments. Did Lex experiment on Zod's body and determine Kryptonite's negative effect and did Bruce hack into Lex's system and find that out? If so I must have nodded off during that part. We knew it was lethal, but how did Bruce know?

Leaving minor stuff for the audience to infer is fine, but the motivations of your main characters' actions? Not so much.

When Senator Finch first met Lex, he briefed them on finding the Kryptonite., They used it on Zod and seen that it degraded Kryptonian cells aka lacerated his skin. This was before Lex sliced his fingerprint off. Bruce in the scene before was already intercepting communications to Lex and the "White Portugese" so Bruce must have found out some time before this. I would assume he hacked Lex. I like to think Lex knew Bruce was Batman long before the movie.

 

[ironwez20]

It actually has appeared in the comics that Gotham and Metropolis are right next to one another across a bay! This is only in one comic, and it’s not the usual thing. But there is a precedent in the comics is what I’m saying. And at the 2020 DC Fandome Zack Snyder specifically used the term “elseworld” to describe his planned five film saga.

View attachment 572573

As a resident of the area, I’ve always pictured this something more like Metropolis is akin to Manhattan and Gotham is then like Jersey City, lol.

Woah! Gotham is literally a train ride away from me. I’m doomed

 

[ironwez20]

Wasn't it implied in the movie that Batman was only considered an urban legend/fictional and just something to scare people? Maybe that's why nobody really bothered investigating it. If that's the case also, then nobody would really know what good he accomplished, right? Superman being able to see and hear things from afar can easily pick up on his existence.

I don’t understand how you can stop supervillains trying to take over the city and have a bat signal in the sky call for you and still be called an urban legend for 20 yrs. Do people think the super villains just stop and the police just shine a bat signal in the sky for fun?

 

[Bleah]

I don’t understand how you can stop supervillains trying to take over the city and have a bat signal in the sky call for you and still be called an urban legend for 20 yrs. Do people think the super villains just stop and the police just shine a bat signal in the sky for fun?

Question is were there supervillains or metahumans known to Batman before the events Man of Steel? Because it seems he only became aware that more existed when he got that classified data from Lex. If you think about it, Joker, Penguin, Two-face, etc. (Most of Batman's rogue gallery) aren't really super per se.

 

[The Buffinator]

When Senator Finch first met Lex, he briefed them on finding the Kryptonite., They used it on Zod and seen that it degraded Kryptonian cells aka lacerated his skin. This was before Lex sliced his fingerprint off. Bruce in the scene before was already intercepting communications to Lex and the "White Portugese" so Bruce must have found out some time before this. I would assume he hacked Lex. I like to think Lex knew Bruce was Batman long before the movie.

OK, now that you’ve provided a detailed description of that Finch/Lex encounter I do vaguely recall it. I think my forgetfulness is due to trying to purge all memory of Eisenberg’s portrayal of Luthor lol. But yes, it tracks that Bruce would have gotten the lowdown on Kryptonite by hacking Lex.

 

[ironwez20]

Question is were there supervillains or metahumans known to Batman before the events Man of Steel? Because it seems he only became aware that more existed when he got that classified data from Lex. If you think about it, Joker, Penguin, Two-face, etc. (Most of Batman's rogue gallery) aren't really super per se.

True but this is a more fantasy type world. There has got to be a clayface, manbat, Solomon Grundy or poison ivy running around. 20 years and he had to have fought someone other then the main 3