Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

[Alatar]

This is where I feel Snyder and Netflix have completely missed the mark. I think more people might have cut them some slack on RM if it was released as a limited/continuing series, but there is an expectation amongst viewers that they're going to witness a complete story (with character development) unfold on screen when they sit down to watch a movie. The best movie franchises have launched from single films that were so captivating that sequels were the next logical step, whereas it seems RM has the cart before the horse. It's all well and good that Snyder has mapped out where he wants his RM franchise to go, but it's not going to matter if he doesn't first get viewers to care enough about the world and characters that he created. He may have achieved this in your view, but by all indications you're decidely in the minority.

I don’t think anyone needs a complete story to kick this thing off. I remember watching the first six episodes of Game of Thrones and actually getting a bit restless and bored, but I was into it for what I sensed would be some topflight world-building, just based on the bares bones I was initially seeing. I get that GoT is an 8 season miniseries. But if Zack gets to continue Rebel Moon he’s talking about 6 long-ass films. If each is 3 hours that’s on par with a miniseries imho.

I think to whatever extent what you’re saying is true, it would be tolerated easily if some basic expectations that were set by the first trailer had been met. I would still maintain that the main disappointment is that Rebel Moon isn’t delivering what most fans wanted and expected regarding how the genre is to be experienced and appreciated. Zack has his own artistic and philosophical concept in his head about subversively applying a sci-fi/fantasy pulp B movie aesthetic to “Star Wars,” and that’s what we’re getting with the finished product. The tone is quirky and offbeat. It’s a strange fusion of diverse elements that come together into a very strange amalgamation, and not in a particularly pretty or soothing way. However the trailer for Part 1 signaled that Rebel Moon would be a straight-ahead actioner with gorgeous visuals on par with some of his best work cinematographically—and hopefully something that could possibly rival Star Wars for those with a deep love for the genre in its classical form!

And for fans that love and want the classical form of the genre, that’s kind of an uncool tease. So those people are pissed.

That being said, I saw Zack say in a recent interview that he sees himself as a “provocateur.” Which is consistent with all the genre deconstruction and subversion that he himself says he’s into. But it’s such a dangerous game to play career-wise.

 

[abake]

So I watched Part 2 and enjoyed it. There’s nothing “bad” for me about the two PG13 cuts of Part 1 and Part 2. In particular I really like the characters, story, and universe/lore. I want to see the saga develop, and I look forward to the quest that the surviving team now has at the end of Part 2.

I’m fine with a slow burn for worldbuilding. I want to gradually learn more about all this stuff: the Imperium, The Mother World, the origins of the royal family, Issa in each incarnation/aspect, the creepy cyber-punk religion that corrupts Issa's true spiritual meaning, the rebellion, the Jimmies and their chivalric role, the cyber-punk tech including the neural link, and so on. In the first two films for a franchise like this I only expect to be introduced to those things.

I appreciate that in this mythos’ good vs. evil design the force of “good” shows up as Druidic in nature, i.e., through connection to the earth, the wild, Nature, etc. That’s fun to play with. Jimmy in particular in that aspect. Jimmy is to me a symbol of alchemical conjunction.

And I was a bit surprised but ultimately pleased to see the force of good also shows up as a collectivist farm community! With “evil” as obviously fascist and authoritarian with echoes of Nazism. But it looks like it also comments on industrialization/capitalism’s utterly depraved disregard and even disdain for anything but profit; and it’s utter zeal to ruthlessly exploit any and all resources it can find rather than care most about the quality of human experience and be a respectful steward of the planet. So much for the assumption of a “Randian objectivist” Zack Snyder! This is hippy Snyder.

Anyway, it’s interesting to me that I find the story is the strongest part of the Rebel Moon experience for me. Because in a Snyder film usually I’m more captivated by 1) visuals, i.e., cinematography, action, fight choreography, and 2) meta-contextual themes, i.e., genre commentary (often in the form of visual Easter eggs) and deconstruction.

And therein lies the problem, I think, for this franchise. The average viewer wanted a fairly straight-ahead genre approach to “Star Wars”… maybe something more or less like the treatment of Superman in Man of Steel. And they were really excited for the first trailer for Rebel Moon Part 1. It looked like Star Wars but done in an earthier, grittier, and edgier way.

That isn’t actually what Snyder is doing here. Which was very disappointing to a lot of prospective fans. Instead, he’s deconstructing “Star Wars” by giving it a pulp sci-fi/fantasy B movie aesthetic. I suspect he went that route because the original 1977 Star Wars was actually intended by George Lucas as a B movie. And honestly, that film is pretty damn cheesy—complete with an over-the-top villain and damsel in distress to rescue.

That being said, 1977 Star Wars also raised the bar tremendously for that genre. It featured upgraded practical special effects through excellent use of scale models and clever camera angles. And it created a fresh feeling creative new fantasy mythos of the Jedi philosophy (even though ultimately derivative, there’s nothing new under the sun). Oh, and obviously the characters were great.

In any case, 1977 Star Wars is ultimately a B movie. Rebel Moon is deconstructing that aspect of it. And that is clearly not what most viewers wanted or asked for. Rather, they wanted a relatively sincere take on the genre. Not necessarily for Star Wars to be dethroned by it. But to get a worthy rival to it.

Another source of disappointment for many viewers is that people have grown accustomed to Snyder delivering truly gorgeous and epic looking cinematography, action, and fight choreography. Such as in 300, Watchmen, Man of Steel, and BvS. Rebel Moon has some nice stuff going on visually. But it is not at the god tier level of those four Snyder films just mentioned.

So at the end of the day we have something that to me is still intriguing and immersive. I’ll be fascinated to see how the “over the top” violence and graphic sex scenes in the director’s cuts vulgarize the sincerity and wholesomeness of “Star Wars,” and make the sacred profane. I think there Snyder is attempting to bring two poles of a duality together into a unity of some sort. Like trying to achieve the alchemical “coiniunctio.” But it is something that is bound to disappoint “normie” general audience viewers—and even many of his hardcore fans.

Nah, sorry man, I really don't see what you are seeing in these movies.
Whatever it is that Snyder was trying to do, it didn't work for me this time. I'm a huge fan of his DC movies, but this is not good by any stretch of the imagination. Snyder needs a good story and script to unleash his vision on the unsuspecting crowd, and this most definitely does not have a good script. The story itself might be fine, as well known as it is, but the script is simply bad.
I mean, even the big reveal of the "scargiver's" true story is completely devoid of pathos and drama. It's just another vignette in a series of vignettes that have no real emotional impact. I very much doubt a longer cut of this will make it any better, but I suppose I'll give it a chance when it comes out.

 

[abake]

I don’t think anyone needs a complete story to kick this thing off. I remember watching the first six episodes of Game of Thrones and actually getting a bit restless and bored, but I was into it for what I sensed would be some topflight world-building, just based on the bares bones I was initially seeing. I get that GoT is an 8 season miniseries. But if Zack gets to continue Rebel Moon he’s talking about 6 long-ass films. If each is 3 hours that’s on par with a miniseries imho.

I think to whatever extent what you’re saying is true, it would be tolerated easily if some basic expectations that were set by the first trailer had been met. I would still maintain that the main disappointment is that Rebel Moon isn’t delivering what most fans wanted and expected regarding how the genre is to be experienced and appreciated. Zack has his own artistic and philosophical concept in his head about subversively applying a sci-fi/fantasy pulp B movie aesthetic to “Star Wars,” and that’s what we’re getting with the finished product. The tone is quirky and offbeat. It’s a strange fusion of diverse elements that come together into a very strange amalgamation, and not in a particularly pretty or soothing way. However the trailer for Part 1 signaled that Rebel Moon would be a straight-ahead actioner with gorgeous visuals on par with some of his best work cinematographically—and hopefully something that could possibly rival Star Wars for those with a deep love for the genre in its classical form!

And for fans that love and want the classical form of the genre, that’s kind of an uncool tease. So those people are pissed.

That being said, I saw Zack say in a recent interview that he sees himself as a “provocateur.” Which is consistent with all the genre deconstruction and subversion that he himself says he’s into. But it’s such a dangerous game to play career-wise.

I'm all for that, but you need a good, captivating story, well told and with engaging characters to make it work.
And we didn't get any of that.
To stay with the SW comparison: sure, we didn't know much about Luke, but he was a charismatic, relatable character, so we wanted to see/know more about him. Darth Vader? Absolutely no idea what he was all about, but he was no menacing and cool that we wanted to see more of him. Kora, on the other hand... might be an interesting character, yes, but I haven't seen anything yet in two films that make me care enough about her to want to see more.

 

[ironwez20]

James Gunn and Joss Whedon are working on a new Sonic movie, reimagined.

Sonic is being recast, to be played by the guy playing Pa Kent.

Sheesh that would be a nightmare.
Sonic runs in slo mo.
Kills dr. Robotnik in his first film by breaking his neck and him and shadow have the same mom name.
Also he would have washboard abs

 

[Alatar]

Netflix doesn’t care about the views anymore they care about new subs. Views are a plus. They canceled way better shows that had highter views cause they thought they didn’t bring in the money. So yea rebel moon def ain’t getting its third or fourth directors cut. Nobody cares that much. Hell you might not get a third. I’ll be praying for ya.

Actually, I think they care most about revenue from their own ad supported plan and the prospect of licensing their original content to other platforms that have commercials such as Amazon Prime, Roku, Pluto, and Tubi.

They obviously want and need as many subscriptions as possible, of course.

But the view numbers help price the commercials on ad supported platforms.

 

[Alatar]

Nah, sorry man, I really don't see what you are seeing in these movies.
Whatever it is that Snyder was trying to do, it didn't work for me this time. I'm a huge fan of his DC movies, but this is not good by any stretch of the imagination. Snyder needs a good story and script to unleash his vision on the unsuspecting crowd, and this most definitely does not have a good script. The story itself might be fine, as well known as it is, but the script is simply bad.
I mean, even the big reveal of the "scargiver's" true story is completely devoid of pathos and drama. It's just another vignette in a series of vignettes that have no real emotional impact. I very much doubt a longer cut of this will make it any better, but I suppose I'll give it a chance when it comes out.

The stunt coordinator recently said the R-rated director's cuts have much better fight scenes if that helps any!

But I get what you're saying. Btw, I'm going off of what Snyder himself has said about what his intentions are for Rebel Moon.

 

[ironwez20]

Actually, I think they care most about revenue from their own ad supported plan and the prospect of licensing their original content to other platforms that have commercials such as Amazon Prime, Roku, Pluto, and Tubi.

They obviously want and need as many subscriptions as possible, of course.

But the view numbers help price the commercials on ad supported platforms.

I don’t know about that one. There have been many series that have surpassed the numbers of rebel moon that got canceled cause they didn’t bring in new subs

 

[The Buffinator]

I don’t think anyone needs a complete story to kick this thing off. I remember watching the first six episodes of Game of Thrones and actually getting a bit restless and bored, but I was into it for what I sensed would be some topflight world-building, just based on the bares bones I was initially seeing. I get that GoT is an 8 season miniseries. But if Zack gets to continue Rebel Moon he’s talking about 6 long-ass films. If each is 3 hours that’s on par with a miniseries imho.

I think to whatever extent what you’re saying is true, it would be tolerated easily if some basic expectations that were set by the first trailer had been met. I would still maintain that the main disappointment is that Rebel Moon isn’t delivering what most fans wanted and expected regarding how the genre is to be experienced and appreciated. Zack has his own artistic and philosophical concept in his head about subversively applying a sci-fi/fantasy pulp B movie aesthetic to “Star Wars,” and that’s what we’re getting with the finished product. The tone is quirky and offbeat. It’s a strange fusion of diverse elements that come together into a very strange amalgamation, and not in a particularly pretty or soothing way. However the trailer for Part 1 signaled that Rebel Moon would be a straight-ahead actioner with gorgeous visuals on par with some of his best work cinematographically—and hopefully something that could possibly rival Star Wars for those with a deep love for the genre in its classical form!

And for fans that love and want the classical form of the genre, that’s kind of an uncool tease. So those people are pissed.

That being said, I saw Zack say in a recent interview that he sees himself as a “provocateur.” Which is consistent with all the genre deconstruction and subversion that he himself says he’s into. But it’s such a dangerous game to play career-wise.

But that's the point I was making - to me it's clear from what you've indicated are Snyder's ambitions for RM that a series is really what he & Netflix should have made. Now maybe he's too set in his ways, thinks anything but feature films are beneath him or simply doesn't have the knack for writing & directing to fit an episodic format, but whatever the reason the decision to go the feature film route comes with the expectations I mentioned in my previous post. And so far for the majority of viewers those expectations have clearly not been met.

As for Snyder referring to himself as a "provocateur", I'm sorry but that sounds like something a PR consultant fed him to put a positive spin on why he's unpopular. Well, at least he not claiming to be a misunderstood genius.....but I sense that's coming lol...

 

[T8OO]

But that's the point I was making - to me it's clear from what you've indicated are Snyder's ambitions for RM that a series is really what he & Netflix should have made. Now maybe he's too set in his ways, thinks anything but feature films are beneath him or simply doesn't have the knack for writing & directing to fit an episodic format, but whatever the reason the decision to go the feature film route comes with the expectations I mentioned in my previous post. And so far for the majority of viewers those expectations have clearly not been met.

As for Snyder referring to himself as a "provocateur", I'm sorry but that sounds like something a PR consultant fed him to put a positive spin on why he's unpopular. Well, at least he not claiming to be a misunderstood genius.....but I sense that's coming lol...

He suggested to WB that ZSJL could be a series and it was edited as such until much later in the process, they even made a credits scene for it.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I would still maintain that the main disappointment is that Rebel Moon isn’t delivering what most fans wanted and expected regarding how the genre is to be experienced and appreciated. Zack has his own artistic and philosophical concept in his head about subversively applying a sci-fi/fantasy pulp B movie aesthetic to “Star Wars,” and that’s what we’re getting with the finished product.

10 Very Important Things I Learned From Watching ‘Rebel Moon: Part 2 — The Scargiver’

1. ALWAYS HIRE Anthony Hopkins to deliver exposition.....“On the far edges of the Motherworld’s reach, circling the gas giant Mara, was the small moon of Veldt… So it was that a woman named Cora and a man named Gunnar set forth from the village, to gather warriors to stand against the dreadnought. In an ambush on the floating docks of Gondoval, Cora triumphed over Admiral Noble, leaving his shattered body on the rocky coastline.” It’s still nonsense....

4. Slo-mo is cool. Getting angry at Zack Snyder for sloooooooowwwwwwwwwiiiiiiiinnnnnnggggg his action sequences down is like yelling at water for being so damned wet. Ever since he turned his 2006 Go-Spartans epic 300 into a moving gallery of men killing other men at an operatically snail’s pace, that’s been his signature move. I can’t remember who said that Snyder’s films would only be 22 minutes long if you ran all of the set pieces at normal speed, but whoever it was, I hope they won a Pulitzer for that statement....

5. Harvest dances among outer-space farmers are cool. I mean, it must be, because Rebel Moon: Part 2 — The Scargiver spends a good part of its first hour turning a pre-battle harvest dance into a chance for speechifying, some first-class hoedowns, and what is supposed to pass for character development among the band of warriors who will defend this agrarian space community from the Evil Space Nazis....

10. Life is painfully short. Probably too short to read cynical, gimmicky movie reviews. Certainly too short to watch bad movies. Most definitely too short to commit to a badly constructed space saga-slash-cinematic universe that threatens to take up even more of your time and brain power while merely delivering reheated pop-cultural leftovers smothered in digital hot sauce. Turn away from your screens. Go for a walk. Start your own wheat-threshing collective. Anything but suffer through this.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-mov...-the-scargiver-review-zack-snyder-1235001671/

 

[Alatar]

But that's the point I was making - to me it's clear from what you've indicated are Snyder's ambitions for RM that a series is really what he & Netflix should have made. Now maybe he's too set in his ways, thinks anything but feature films are beneath him or simply doesn't have the knack for writing & directing to fit an episodic format, but whatever the reason the decision to go the feature film route comes with the expectations I mentioned in my previous post. And so far for the majority of viewers those expectations have clearly not been met.

As for Snyder referring to himself as a "provocateur", I'm sorry but that sounds like something a PR consultant fed him to put a positive spin on why he's unpopular. Well, at least he not claiming to be a misunderstood genius.....but I sense that's coming lol...

Eh maybe, but he was laughing and joking as he said it, poking fun at himself, essentially. He was asked what film he would make next if he doesn't get Rebel Moon 3 and he said, laughingly, (close paraphrase) "I guess that depends on what direction I want to go with this provocateur thing!"

 

[Alatar]

I don’t know about that one. There have been many series that have surpassed the numbers of rebel moon that got canceled cause they didn’t bring in new subs

Why Streaming Services Are Pushing Subscribers to Ad Tiers

 

[The Buffinator]

He suggested to WB that ZSJL could be a series and it was edited as such until much later in the process, they even made a credit scene for it.

And your point is? I’m sorry, but a suggestion of what could have been done with ZSJL (& ultimately wasn’t) proves neither that it would have been effective nor that he could have delivered an appealing episodic version of RM. Mind you, I never said he wasn’t capable of doing so (we may never know), only that it’s possible he rejected that format as it’s not in his comfort zone.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Where are my Rebel Moon figures?

Where's 'Tarzan'?

Where's 'the Witch'...?

Where's dirty King Titus...?

I want the R-rated versions only!!! And I want that threesome!

 

[The Buffinator]

Where are my Rebel Moon figures?

Where's 'Tarzan'?

Where's 'the Witch'...?

Where's dirty King Titus...?

I want the R-rated versions only!!! And I want that threesome!

OK,

 

[ironwez20]

Honestly he may just do better with cartoons. I’m interested in his animated series. The guy has great ideas but his execution is terrible so perhaps with animation it will give him more freedom to stretch his wings. No live action restrictions. He just does something fun with animation.

Hell he should have just did that with his Snyder verse. That way people would have accepted it as just another else worlds DC story but dude got a big head and thought he could make something on par with lotr or Star Wars.

 

[Otomofan]

The guy has great ideas

Does he really though?

He used the comics 300 and Watchmen as storyboards, essentially. And BvS was cobbled together from Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman.

What really good ideas are his? "Sucker Punch?"

The dildo spaceships in "Man of Steel?"

Or how about having a Star Destroyer sized intergalactic spaceship powered by.......men shoveling coal into a furnace???

 

[ironwez20]

Does he really though?

He used the comics 300 and Watchmen as storyboards, essentially. And BvS was cobbled together from Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman.

What really good ideas are his? "Sucker Punch?"

The dildo spaceships in "Man of Steel?"

Or how about having a Star Destroyer sized intergalactic spaceship powered by.......men shoveling coal into a furnace???

lol ok lemme back it up.
So he has great ideas such as Superman actually fighting like Superman and him facing off against Batman. A girl trapped in her mind fighting her tormentors in different worlds and settings. The fighting in 300 and having like a 7 samurai but in space tyoe movie.

The problem is he can’t write or execute them well. Is it a good idea? Yea. But with the right people actually feeling him back and telling him what’s right and what’s wrong he probably would have made better content

 

[T8OO]

And your point is? I’m sorry, but a suggestion of what could have been done with ZSJL (& ultimately wasn’t) proves neither that it would have been effective nor that he could have delivered an appealing episodic version of RM. Mind you, I never said he wasn’t capable of doing so (we may never know), only that it’s possible he rejected that format as it’s not in his comfort zone.

My point is that he is most likely not too set in his ways and doesn't think anything but feature films are beneath him or he probably wouldn't have suggested it. Plus he put ZSJL into an episodic format but now it's used as 6 parts of a movie.

 

[abake]

lol ok lemme back it up.
So he has great ideas such as Superman actually fighting like Superman and him facing off against Batman. A girl trapped in her mind fighting her tormentors in different worlds and settings. The fighting in 300 and having like a 7 samurai but in space tyoe movie.

The problem is he can’t write or execute them well. Is it a good idea? Yea. But with the right people actually feeling him back and telling him what’s right and what’s wrong he probably would have made better content

I completely agree that Snyder needs good writers giving him good material and also talented people to help reign in his more indulgent whims.