Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

[Alatar]

Saw the movie today. Had a great time. Absolutely loved it. My spoiler-free comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Snyderverse/s/mWZH1E8CsL

 

[Alatar]

I think when a lot of people that subscribe to Netflix who have no particular issue with Zack Snyder's filmmaking style, i.e., no dog in the fight, actually watch this movie they will legit be scratching their heads at a 23% RT score. This is in no way a "bad" film. At a minimum it is very good. And for those that enjoy a story of this kind (regardless of the director) it's excellent (meaning it will be experienced as such). Haters will of course bash at every opportunity. But for anyone that is relatively objective this film if directed by almost anyone else would be certified fresh.

Studios can and do “buy” reviews and can completely game the system, and RT has been outed for that recently:

Report: PR Firm Has Been Paying Rotten Tomatoes Critics For Positive Reviews

Paul Schrader Says Studios ‘Game’ Rotten Tomatoes Amid Allegations of Corrupt Review Tactics

The Decomposition of Rotten Tomatoes

 

[Mr. Awesome]

I think when a lot of people that subscribe to Netflix who have no particular issue with Zack Snyder's filmmaking style, i.e., no dog in the fight, actually watch this movie they will legit be scratching their heads at a 23% RT score. This is in no way a "bad" film. At a minimum it is very good. And for those that enjoy a story of this kind (regardless of the director) it's excellent (meaning it will be experienced as such). Haters will of course bash at every opportunity. But for anyone that is relatively objective this film if directed by almost anyone else would be certified fresh.

Studios can and do “buy” reviews and can completely game the system, and RT has been outed for that recently:

Report: PR Firm Has Been Paying Rotten Tomatoes Critics For Positive Reviews

Paul Schrader Says Studios ‘Game’ Rotten Tomatoes Amid Allegations of Corrupt Review Tactics

The Decomposition of Rotten Tomatoes

Idk, I feel like we've reached a point to where it's common knowledge that RT is no longer a (even slightly) dependable source for audience opinion anymore.

Way too much "fuggery" has been going on with them. I prefer IMDB for non-critic reviews over RT, personally. And I avoid any and all "critic reviews" from any and all platforms.

There are movies I hold dear to my heart and was thoroughly impressed with that get 5/10 rating. So I ignore ratings on IMDB as well. It's all about the general audience reviews. That's where you'll get a few really good points of insight.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yet if the RT score was high the same people would be using it as evidence that its a great movie.

People suck.

 

[The Buffinator]

I think when a lot of people that subscribe to Netflix who have no particular issue with Zack Snyder's filmmaking style, i.e., no dog in the fight, actually watch this movie they will legit be scratching their heads at a 23% RT score. This is in no way a "bad" film. At a minimum it is very good. And for those that enjoy a story of this kind (regardless of the director) it's excellent (meaning it will be experienced as such). Haters will of course bash at every opportunity. But for anyone that is relatively objective this film if directed by almost anyone else would be certified fresh.

Studios can and do “buy” reviews and can completely game the system, and RT has been outed for that recently:

I don’t disagree but when the movie’s RT score is 23% I don’t see how that’s relevant unless you’re implying its score would be even worse if not for that (which clearly you aren’t ) lol.

 

[Alatar]

Yeah, it is ironic that when the Rotten Tomatoes scores are high we really shouldn’t put stock in that either!

I remember when I saw Chariots of Fire, Remains of the Day, The Dead, and a number of others in that vein based on RT score and the critics gushing over them… and I was bored to tears. I simply did not care what was going in the film. The themes I respected, sure. But the films just did nothing for me.

Does that mean they’re bad films? Obviously not. But just citing examples of films the critics raved about that didn’t connect with me stylistically.

 

[The Buffinator]

Yeah, I'll watch this and make up my own mind. RT audience score of 73% isn't great either, but I scanned some of the reviews and there are many (both negative and positive) that are so short with absolutely no reasoning or thought behind them that they could easily be bot generated. Plus the majority of moviegoers can't be bothered to submit reviews anyway so I'm not sure those that do can really be trusted.**

** - That last sentence was NOT directed at you Alatarbot!

 

[Felinx]

Yeah, it is ironic that when the Rotten Tomatoes scores are high we really shouldn’t put stock in that either!

I remember when I saw Chariots of Fire, Remains of the Day, The Dead, and a number of others in that vein based on RT score and the critics gushing over them… and I was bored to tears. I simply did not care what was going in the film. The themes I respected, sure. But the films just did nothing for me.

Does that mean they’re bad films? Obviously not. But just citing examples of films the critics raved about that didn’t connect with me stylistically.

Wow, I recently re-watched Remains of the Day after many years and loved it.

Haven't checked this one out yet but the trailer does seem to be shooting for 300-as-sci-fi but feels more like a video game of Fifth Element by way of Disney+ SW (which has a TV'ed look, tone and approach that to me is quite distinct from cinematic OT SW) with a decent spritz of Battlefield Earth. Surprisingly, a few noticeably weak video-gamey FX shots in the full trailer.

 

[chrisstbh]

Yet if the RT score was high the same people would be using it as evidence that its a great movie.

People suck.

People gotta learn that they can like something whilst still admitting that it's awful . I mean people still eat up those Fast & Furious movies

 

[jye4ever]

People gotta learn that they can like something whilst still admitting that it's awful . I mean people still eat up those Fast & Furious movies

We all have our guilty pleasures!

 

[ironwez20]

If I recall tmnt 1990 doesn’t have good scores on RT and that movie is a masterpiece. But honestly I always hated RT. Why are we putting so much stock on rotten ok tasting fruit anyway.

 

[Rotfish]

If I recall tmnt 1990 doesn’t have good scores on RT and that movie is a masterpiece. But honestly I always hated RT. Why are we putting so much stock on rotten ok tasting fruit anyway.

If you haven't had campari tomatoes, you haven't had tomatoes. Touch of salt and they're just...

 

[Alatar]

We all have our guilty pleasures!

I really dug I, Frankenstein. Although I suspect what most would consider "bad" about it might well have been done on purpose.

 

[Alatar]

Yeah, I'll watch this and make up my own mind. RT audience score of 73% isn't great either, but I scanned some of the reviews and there are many (both negative and positive) that are so short with absolutely no reasoning or thought behind them that they could easily be bot generated. Plus the majority of moviegoers can't be bothered to submit reviews anyway so I'm not sure those that do can really be trusted.**

** - That last sentence was NOT directed at you Alatarbot!

True! It's just the viewers that feel motivated to vote and write a blurb. It's a not a random sample but a self-selected sample.

 

[Alatar]

There’s a lot going on in this movie at the meta level, i.e., conceptually, and symbolically of things in real life, etc. And it’s fairly obvious once you see it. I don’t think that what I’ll share about that once the film has released is going to strike anyone as a big stretch.

But I will say now that that it’s tremendously satisfying. If you think I’m an ardent defender of what Zack is doing with his DC saga (the planned five film thing), I will be that times a thousand with Rebel Moon’s core message.

Oh!—and the core message will be polarizing, lol. One would think it shouldn’t be. But it will, lol.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

There’s a lot going on in this movie at the meta level, i.e., conceptually, and symbolically of things in real life, etc.

I'll take a different spin on this.

Some stories need a very specific format. For example, Enders Game. It's basically impossible to try to condense that kind of story into a 3 hour film. It's even worse if you tried it in a two hour film. Because of the raw logistics ( finding young actors to fill all those roles, now try to do that over the range of a multiple season TV series and film it fast enough to not get trapped by the kids growing too fast on you, that's not even beginning to deal with the huge mess that is trying to cast the film in the first place, it's tough enough to find one great young actor, try finding a dozen....), you'd be forced to animate it.

Enders Game can work. As a TV series. That's animated.

My take on this is Snyder would have been better off long term starting Rebel Moon as an immersive video game. Then using that a "pressure test" for the concept overall. And based on it's success or how fans react, then push for a feature film or a trilogy.

Remember The Titans is canned Oscar bait. It's constructed in a way to be review friendly / accessible / lean into Hollywood's actual day to day culture. Peter Berg's Friday Night Lights is a pure guys movie. It's a film for guys and it's instructive to young men on the struggles of growing up and facing your own masculinity. I will agree that Snyder gets a lot of immediate and automatic vitriol. If he made films more like Remember The Titans, he'd get left alone more. But he makes guy movies that don't apologize for being guy movies. So some of the criticism he gets is too far over the top that doesn't address the actual film. However, Rebel Moon is far too character heavy and plot heavy in this format.

There is a good story here. But not packaged as such.

Nearly everyone love the first Predator film. Iconic in every way. But it would suck as a TV series. Suck in ways people can't even imagine. You can have the same cast, same director, same story, and if you tried to drag it out for three full season at 12 episode each, the story would crash and burn.

Rebel Moon has narrative problems because it has structural problems. Those structural problems exist because it's IMHO not in the proper format. But there is a good story here. Snyder needs to operate in the constraints of the format in place. They exist because they operate as guard rails for fundamental storytelling. The guard rails exist to maintain a narrative's marketability through function. In essence, Snyder could have just made this way easier on himself from the beginning but still had the opportunity to tell "his story"

Basic rule of the industry - The "game" is hard enough on it's own if you do everything the fundamental way. No need to create your own problems on top of that.

I enjoy a lot of what Snyder has done, but he often doesn't help his own cause logistically. Whether you agree or disagree, I'm giving you a hypothetical viewpoint of how a potential investor will look at all this before deciding to jump in and help finance one of Snyder's projects. From that angle, it moves beyond whether Snyder is being persecuted or not. Just being honest.

 

[Alatar]

This weekend after folks have had a chance to watch the movie I’ll share what I’m on about regarding the symbolism. It’s not a giant stretch. It’ll be obvious, I should think. The debate will shift from “it lacks substance” to how he’s saying what he’s saying, and folks taking issue with his artistic choices about that. But the substance will be pretty undeniable. It’ll be kind of silly to argue against imo, but then again this is Zack Snyder lol. So there will be people who will rail against whatever he does.

I think Rebel Moon does stand the best chance yet from among any of his films of winning doubters over once they grok what he’s doing though.

 

[Alatar]

I'll take a different spin on this.

Some stories need a very specific format. For example, Enders Game. It's basically impossible to try to condense that kind of story into a 3 hour film. It's even worse if you tried it in a two hour film. Because of the raw logistics ( finding young actors to fill all those roles, now try to do that over the range of a multiple season TV series and film it fast enough to not get trapped by the kids growing too fast on you, that's not even beginning to deal with the huge mess that is trying to cast the film in the first place, it's tough enough to find one great young actor, try finding a dozen....), you'd be forced to animate it.

Enders Game can work. As a TV series. That's animated.

My take on this is Snyder would have been better off long term starting Rebel Moon as an immersive video game. Then using that a "pressure test" for the concept overall. And based on it's success or how fans react, then push for a feature film or a trilogy.

Remember The Titans is canned Oscar bait. It's constructed in a way to be review friendly / accessible / lean into Hollywood's actual day to day culture. Peter Berg's Friday Night Lights is a pure guys movie. It's a film for guys and it's instructive to young men on the struggles of growing up and facing your own masculinity. I will agree that Snyder gets a lot of immediate and automatic vitriol. If he made films more like Remember The Titans, he'd get left alone more. But he makes guy movies that don't apologize for being guy movies. So some of the criticism he gets is too far over the top that doesn't address the actual film. However, Rebel Moon is far too character heavy and plot heavy in this format.

There is a good story here. But not packaged as such.

Nearly everyone love the first Predator film. Iconic in every way. But it would suck as a TV series. Suck in ways people can't even imagine. You can have the same cast, same director, same story, and if you tried to drag it out for three full season at 12 episode each, the story would crash and burn.

Rebel Moon has narrative problems because it has structural problems. Those structural problems exist because it's IMHO not in the proper format. But there is a good story here. Snyder needs to operate in the constraints of the format in place. They exist because they operate as guard rails for fundamental storytelling. The guard rails exist to maintain a narrative's marketability through function. In essence, Snyder could have just made this way easier on himself from the beginning but still had the opportunity to tell "his story"

Basic rule of the industry - The "game" is hard enough on it's own if you do everything the fundamental way. No need to create your own problems on top of that.

I enjoy a lot of what Snyder has done, but he often doesn't help his own cause logistically. Whether you agree or disagree, I'm giving you a hypothetical viewpoint of how a potential investor will look at all this before deciding to jump in and help finance one of Snyder's projects. From that angle, it moves beyond whether Snyder is being persecuted or not. Just being honest.

The way Zack has described the director’s cut I think there’s something unusual going on artistically here. It’s actually pretty radical. I’ll elaborate over the weekend after folks have had a chance to watch The PG-13 cut.

 

[chrisstbh]

The way Zack has described the director’s cut I think there’s something unusual going on artistically here. It’s actually pretty radical. I’ll elaborate over the weekend after folks have had a chance to watch The PG-13 cut.

The fact he seems to constantly rely on his “directors cuts” says it all imo.

 

[PizzaCake]

I think the movie looks fun and I’m excited to watch it, but it is fascinating to me how Zack Snyder movie debates so frequently end up coming down to whether it’s unwatchable trash or an allegorical masterpiece lol. I have enjoyed most of his movies to some degree and rewatched a few, but none have inspired that passionate of a response in either direction from me (well, maybe Sucker Punch, which I did hate).

I’ll reserve judgment until I watch it, and it does seem like the meaningless RT score is skewed more negative than it may ultimately deserve, but if he is already out there touting a Director’s Cut for this, I don’t feel too bad for them.

This is primarily a Netflix/streaming release. The runtime is 134 minutes. Netflix has success with multiple formats/release models, and put out The Irishman at 3.5 hours. Netflix has made 3 Kissing Booth movies, and I wish I did not know that. They are not concerned about quality, runtime, or content, so long as it IS content. Every story about Netflix seems to indicate they’ll play ball with big names to get their work on the platform. There is no reason that the first version released should not be the best or definitive version in this case. Most directors don’t need to double or triple dip to get it right and the barriers should have been down on this one, so it feels like a blatant attempt to manufacture hype amongst the Snyder Cut crowd.