Star Wars: Ahsoka

[MeatHookGekko]

The problem isn't with the fact that a character came back via cloning or otherwise (cloning is an established part of Star Wars lore). The problem is the fact that it was PALPATINE that came back, and thus undermines Anakin's character arc and the entire point of the original 6 movies.

Even if they did try to explain it in a movie tie in novel, and even if that explanation is sound, it should never have been Palpatine to come back in the first place.

According to rumor, David Fincher wanted Lando to be the projectible "villain" in any SW sequels. ( Core concept was Lando becoming the largest formal high level arms dealer in the galaxy and selling weapons to the New Republic and also secretly to the remnants of the Empire, to foster a "perpetual war") IMHO, makes complete sense from a narrative standpoint. The Holy Trilogy gives you inklings into the flawed nature of Lando, Han and Leia, and clearly Fincher wanted to complete their character arcs.

Kershner and Lucas had completely opposite views of how to use the Lando character and to lay groundwork for the rest of his role in the trilogy, and Fincher clearly sided with Kershner.

A credit to Fincher is he doesn't try to reinvent the wheel. The Lando character is really self serving and completely dangerous. However this is one case where I won't completely blame Kathleen Kennedy. The use of the Lando character runs into the same road blocks that Cassar and Howard Gordon ran into with President David Palmer in Fox's 24. You are literally forced into a corner. You can't make him flawed or wrong, but if only for being too trusting to those close to him that betrayed him. Which doesn't fit the Lando character at all. When the Operation Fast And Furious scandal hit the public, there was no way Jeffrey Katzenberg was going to allow that kind of plotline to fly without completely sabotaging the film.

Lando Calrissian is, by total effect, a pure token character in the most practical sense of down to the bone functional storytelling. He's that way because the mandate was that he had to be completely non offensive in every possible category. Michael K Williams as Omar Little from The Wire shows that you can have a complex and flawed three dimensional character who is a villain. You don't tell a compelling story without taking some risks. Narratives that resonate are the ones that ask you to consider some much larger questions. Which is why Lucas infused so much Joseph Campbell and Kurosawa to start. But then it morphed less as real art and into just another "product". Another energy drink.

Fincher is a filmmaker. He makes films. He doesn't make product. He's not churning out granola bars and almond milk off an assembly line.

On this point, Tarantino, despite all his other exhausting tics and manic behavior, has always been right - You have to be completely honest about your characters. Be true to who they are and why they've become that way. And eventually they'll tell you where you need to go.

 

[Darthrazz]

Did anyone else notice that

Spoiler:

Threepio

was leaning way back, it was almost as if he was laying down, lol.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I was previously unsure why Dengar held such fascination with parts of the fandom, but I get it now.

Compare the original The Thing with the Mary Elizabeth Winstead reboot.

The original was gritty. Without high level SFX as a crutch, there was a reliance on creativity and giving the audience a good time. The remake does everything to the point where it feels plastic. The newer version, everyone is a by the numbers cutout. But the original, the characters were interesting, had personality, you could relate to them better.

All the minor characters from the Holy Trilogy, had a bit of mystery and wonder to them. For Dengar, how did a human end up making the grade with the rest of that gallery of rogues? In contrast, no one really cares about Captain Tarpals or Panaka. Or Phasma really. Or Snoke. There's nothing gritty about them, it's just more plastic feeling.

Take away Reva, and instead use that screen time to tell a story about Hammerhead from the Cantina. Just becomes more interesting.

Just my take.

 

[The Buffinator]

Compare the original The Thing with the Mary Elizabeth Winstead reboot.

The original was gritty. Without high level SFX as a crutch, there was a reliance on creativity and giving the audience a good time. The remake does everything to the point where it feels plastic. The newer version, everyone is a by the numbers cutout. But the original, the characters were interesting, had personality, you could relate to them better.

All the minor characters from the Holy Trilogy, had a bit of mystery and wonder to them. For Dengar, how did a human end up making the grade with the rest of that gallery of rogues? In contrast, no one really cares about Captain Tarpals or Panaka. Or Phasma really. Or Snoke. There's nothing gritty about them, it's just more plastic feeling.

Take away Reva, and instead use that screen time to tell a story about Hammerhead from the Cantina. Just becomes more interesting.

Just my take.

You're no doubt aware that the 1982 movie, rather than being the "original" was in fact a remake/update of the 1951 classic "The Thing From Another World". And people shouldn't focus on the name difference, as I watched that one countless times as a child and it was always referred to as simply "The Thing".

 

[ajp4mgs]

In all seriousness though Thrawn would have literally won if Shin's Stormtroopers had simply obeyed her command to fire. Then it would have been down to just Ahsoka versus both squads of Stormies plus Shin and possibly even Baylan.

So for me that puts Thrawn back into Hans Gruber territory where Karl refused to obey his command to box McClane in, thus allowing the rest of the movie to happen.

As has already been mentioned in order to have an ESB Vader or Gruber or Thrawn you either have them literally defeat the heroes or fail only on account of rogue or foolhardy underlings like Ozzel, Karl, or Shin's troops (plus Baylan deserting.) That way the bad guy's get to still be "geniuses" but without actually killing the good guys.

Thrawn would've won far easier than that by having his witches pinpoint Ezra (the way he had them pinpoint Ahsoka) without needing to release Sabine from handcuffs. That way, there'd be no need to arm Sabine and then have to chase them *both* down (plus rock-chucking crabs) in the first place.

If you want to say that Thrawn's strategies so far make him no worse than any other previous Imperial (or FO) leader, I can definitely agree. He does fit *that* mold. Here's the problem, though: He isn't the most powerful Force-wielder in the galaxy like Palpatine was. He isn't a fearsome machine-man and former Jedi like Vader was. He isn't... well, whatever the heck Snoke ended up being.

So... if Thrawn is going to be the central SW villain for a while, and be credible as someone who could acquire the power that those aforementioned villains had, he needs to have a trait/characteristic that puts him on that level without the magic powers. And since that trait is supposed to be Sherlock-level genius, he has to be more strategically adept than Palps, Vader, or Snoke (none of whom would've attained or kept power without their command of the Force).

We're not talking about robbing a vault; we're talking about spearheading a plot that makes him "heir to the Empire." We're talking about the type of leader so uniquely capable and qualified that people are travelling to another galaxy and risking court martial to prevent his return.

That's not to say that he can't lose. He ultimately lost in the original novels despite consistently being depicted as a super genius. But that takes cleverness and creativity in the writing department. He can't be repeatedly put in situations where fans can point to obvious inconsistencies and spot easier opportunities to win his battles.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Now look, if you keep introducing logic and facts into this we're never going to agree lol...

Seriously though, I think we're both making a couple of assumptions that may or may not pan out at the end of the day:

• You're assuming that (prior to the Eye of Sion's arrival) Thrawn has been viewing Ezra as a threat and has been actively been trying to eliminate him, whereas I think he's only been keeping tabs on him due to the need to focus his activity & resources elsewhere (like keeping his star destroyer in working order);
• I'm not convinced that his numerical advantage over the good guys is as great as you're assuming. I think he may be orchestrating an elaborate bluff to further buy himself the time he needs to escape. His cryptic response to Morgan when she asked why he wasn't sending more than 2 squadrons to support Baylan & Shin has me thinking that the majority of his troops may have died, either as a result of the trip to that galaxy, the hardships they endured over the 10+ years or some other to-be-revealed event (maybe related to Baylan's quest?). Hence the alliance with the Nightsisters and moving Sabine, Baylan, Shin (& eventually Ahsoka) as far away as possible before they could sense his ruse. I think the troopers loading his cargo are likely magically resurrected ones, unlike the real ones manning the gunships.

As for Morgan Elsbeth, she's now too busy standing at Thrawn's side & questioning his decisions (so he can expound upon his strategy to the audience) to be considered an actual asset anymore.

Fair point about assumptions and the potential that there's a better justification to be revealed for what I currently perceive as Thrawn's bone-headed use of resources.

That will have to qualify for me as the "edge-of-my-seat anticipation" for the season finale.

 

[Khev]

Thrawn would've won far easier than that by having his witches pinpoint Ezra (the way he had them pinpoint Ahsoka) without needing to release Sabine from handcuffs. That way, there'd be no need to arm Sabine and then have to chase them *both* down (plus rock-chucking crabs) in the first place.

My point still stands that had not Shin's troops belayed her order (not to mention Baylan's desertion) then Thrawn would have been victorious. Sure there might have been an "easier" way for him to win, just like I'm sure that even the great Sherlock or Hans Gruber could have made decisions that would have made their own lives easier, but victory is victory is it not?

ESB Vader definitely could have done a lot more than simply turning off the Falcon's hyperdrive on Cloud City. He could have had the ship completely filled with hiding Stormtroopers, made sure the entire ship was inoperable, put a tracker on it, etc. But at the end of the day his plan was "good enough" for him to still be a badass and have theoretically achieved victory were it not for that pesky R2 showing up out of the blue.

So as long as it takes a fluke for the good guys to survive (which it did on this latest episode of Ahsoka) then I'm good with the bad guys' plans.

So... if Thrawn is going to be the central SW villain for a while, and be credible as someone who could acquire the power that those aforementioned villains had, he needs to have a trait/characteristic that puts him on that level without the magic powers. And since that trait is supposed to be Sherlock-level genius, he has to be more strategically adept than Palps, Vader, or Snoke (none of whom would've attained or kept power without their command of the Force).

You keep saying that he needs this Sherlock-level intellect to be a credible main bad guy in SW...have you seen what the Imperial Remnants are up against? All anyone needs is to simply be smarter than the average buffoon who invites ex-Jedi mercenaries aboard his ship.

When Thrawn shows up they won't know what hit 'em.

 

[ajp4mgs]

My point still stands that had not Shin's troops belayed her order (not to mention Baylan's desertion) then Thrawn would have been victorious. Sure there might have been an "easier" way for him to win, just like I'm sure that even the great Sherlock or Hans Gruber could have made decisions that would have made their own lives easier, but victory is victory is it not?

ESB Vader definitely could have done a lot more than simply turning off the Falcon's hyperdrive on Cloud City. He could have had the ship completely filled with hiding Stormtroopers, made sure the entire ship was inoperable, put a tracker on it, etc. But at the end of the day his plan was "good enough" for him to still be a badass and have theoretically achieved victory were it not for that pesky R2 showing up out of the blue.

So as long as it takes a fluke for the good guys to survive (which it did on this latest episode of Ahsoka) then I'm good with the bad guys' plans.


You keep saying that he needs this Sherlock-level intellect to be a credible main bad guy in SW...have you seen what the Imperial Remnants are up against? All anyone needs is to simply be smarter than the average buffoon who invites ex-Jedi mercenaries aboard his ship.

When Thrawn shows up they won't know what hit 'em.

Your point about how Vader wasn't a master strategist and yet still a badass is kinda what I was getting at. He didn't have to be a genius. He looked awesome; he sounded awesome; he exuded ferocity; and he had the Force! He used physical intimidation just as much as (if not more than) cerebral aptitude. Thrawn has none of those imposing virtues. His reputation in the SW community was built by his portrayal in the novels. Yes, *that* Thrawn could carry a movie as the big bad. But *this* one? That definitely remains to be seen. Would you put him (so far) above Moff Gideon?

I know you're half joking about the ineptitude of the New Republic and why Thrawn therefore doesn't need to be equal to his characterization in the novels, but even with that being the case, he has to distinguish himself as being worthy of being the big bad in one of (if not *the*) first SW movies in 6 to 8 years (by that point). What are you seeing so far that qualifies him for that? I'm so lost.

 

[Ramatuelle]

I actually read that story for the first time just this summer. It was hilarious.

I was previously unsure why Dengar held such fascination with parts of the fandom, but I get it now.

Due to his tragic backstory, he feels nothing but emptiness and RAGE. He rescues a hot dancing girl who wants him. He knows she wants him because of a psychic gizmo that let’s him know what she’s thinking (but not the other way around). Every teenage boy’s dream!

At the end he rescues Boba Fett who agrees to be the best man at his wedding. Then they do the Arnold/Carl Weather’s arm-wrestle handshake from Predator.

So good.

This story was meant to be cute and tongue-in-cheek. And it was.

Tales of the Bounty Hunters was an awesome book.

 

[The Buffinator]

Fair point about assumptions and the potential that there's a better justification to be revealed for what I currently perceive as Thrawn's bone-headed use of resources.

That will have to qualify for me as the "edge-of-my-seat anticipation" for the season finale.

I readily concede that your take on events is the more likely, but for some reason I still think there’s hope for compelling SW content beyond Andor Season 2. After all, Star Wars fandom is built on hope lol. Also I think it would be a cool if (just like when he was introduced in Episode 5) all of his troopers were assembled on the main deck of the Chimaera when they depart into hyperspace, then all save for Enoch and a handful of others dematerialize when they’re out of range of the Nightsisters’ magic. Cut to Morgan’s and Shin’s astonished faces, then Thrawn’s satisfied smirk and scene!

 

[MeatHookGekko]

You're no doubt aware that the 1982 movie, rather than being the "original" was in fact a remake/update of the 1951 classic "The Thing From Another World". And people shouldn't focus on the name difference, as I watched that one countless times as a child and it was always referred to as simply "The Thing".

Ah, yes, a good classic. The book/short story was also very good.

 

[jye4ever]

Did anyone else notice that

Spoiler:

Threepio

was leaning way back, it was almost as if he was laying down, lol.

 

[RavenAsh]

I just have a sneaking suspicion that Baylan being this beloved and Ray's performance being this incredible has sort of undermined Thrawn in the show that is, to me in a forward-looking sense, mainly about setting up his villainy. Baylan is more interesting than he is, yet Thrawn's meant to be the Thanos type threat going forward.

Episode 8 has to be all about Thrawn and making him and his forces feel more like a threat than just 'oh well, we stalled them for time'. They have to actually straight up win this fight with Ahsoka/Sabine/Ezra, likely with whatever is within the cargo.

This finale simply has to be a Thrawn masterclass or else I will not fear him, and all I'll be thinking about coming out of the show are the new antagonists they've introduced.

 

[ZE_501]

Did anyone else notice that

Spoiler:

Threepio

was leaning way back, it was almost as if he was laying down, lol.

I noticed. He didn't look or sound quite right overall, but I'm thinking of the OT here so there is that as well.

 

[e30ernest]

So on Episode 6, after Thrawn sends out Sabine to find Ezra and after they detect Ahsoka coming back, Thrawn asks the witches a favor. I wonder if this will be addressed on episode 8?

 

[Khev]

For ajp:

 

[The Buffinator]

For agp:

View attachment 666329

I'm not sure that's the "out-of-the-box" thinking that ajp was expecting.

Also, who's agp???

 

[Khev]

 

[RavenAsh]

View attachment 666336

 

[chrisstbh]

Shin Hottie redemption arc. We can fix her.