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So funny that the only 2 people on my ignore list are Kit Fisto and Teemu, no joke. Once in a while I'll throw someone on there for a week or a few days if they are trolling a thread hard but no one else is in there perminately. :lol

I wish people who didn't believe in science weren't allowed to use it and just sort of became a liquid puddle because physics stopped applying itself to them.

I'm not bothered at all by people who believe in any religion, but anyone in any religion who interpruts it literally scares the living **** out of me.

:lecture :lol :hi5: :yess:
 
If you believe,you are chosen

Look at how BIG the unbelieving world is...The Majority of the world hates Christ.(you can see the examples with some here on the forums)

Heb 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

Eph. 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Faith and believing are gifts from God...if you believe,it is because God gave you the ability to believe

God quickens the Will spiritually to believe (ephes.2:1) as you are dead in sin and trespasses...Saving you according to His Mercy and purpose.

Being saved and born again is a change of mind.

II Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

and ultimately have you repented of your Sin? it doesn't mean you will live Sinless,but it means you inherit a hatred for Sin and Evil.

I think I get what you're saying. So when someone is born it is already written if they will believe one day. They don't make the choice.

I'm not sure I can subscribe to that. You could cherry pick Bible verses that contradict that idea all day long. It's an interesting take though. It feels a bit to close to the Jehovah's Witness chosen 144,000 for my taste. I'm also of the opinion that someone must accept a gift even when given.
 
I've given up trying to discuss my beliefs in a way that "convinces" people the Bible is Gods word. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. I don't pick and choose what to believe. His Word is truth and people either accept or they don't. I say freely what I believe and stand for. I slip and fall short like anyone else, but I see my need for a saviour in Christ. I no longer care if I am mocked or laughed at, but I will always stand for what I believe.
 
^ You shouldn't try to convince anyone. It's your belief. Enjoy it. Embrace it.

**** everyone else.
 
Even Jude 1:6-7 declares... "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

The Fallen Angels didn't just go after women,they went after ALL Flesh,even animals...(which is where your 'distorted' idea's Greek Mythology comes into play)

:/

Jude doesn't say "all flesh". When Jude refers to "strange flesh" that doesn't have to mean that they demons had sex with animals. For an angel to fornicate with a human woman would be the equivalent of human/animal bestiality. Strange indeed.



Interesting. So why wouldn't you just start with Christ and salvation? Why the need to allow everything up until Christ came and all the different failed covenants in between?

That's one of the most important questions that you could ask. And it is all about God's sole right to sovereignty (which is the main thrust of the Bible). Here's an abbreviated answer:

Adam and Eve had free will. God gave them one command: Don't eat from this one tree. That tree had no magical properties, it was a symbol of God's right to say what is good and bad. The Devil implied that God was withholding something valuable from them, and that they would become 'like God - knowing good and bad' if they were to eat from the tree. Eve (and later Adam) fell for it. I personally do not believe God chose to foresee that one of his angels would defect and become the Devil (liar) and Satan (resister) - though he was certainly prepared to deal with it. And I don't believe he predestined Adam and Eve to sin (eat from the tree) - though, again, he was prepared to deal with the possibility.

As to the question of why not respond immediately with a Messiah, or whatever means God would choose:

Think of it this way: If a student in a math class were to question a teachers method, what would be the best response? She could either 1) respond immediately - perhaps sending the student to the principles office, or 2) she could give him the chalk and say, "alright, prove it." Which would be more effective? If she sent him to the principle's office the students would be left wondering if the defiant student possibly had a valid point. On the other hand, allowing the student time to make his point would show everyone present the flaws in his objection.


Now compare that to Eden. When the Devil defected and convinced Eve (and Adam) that they could have success by choosing a way contrary to God's will, God was aware of all the millions of angels that were watching. What would be the most effective way to prove the point? Allow Satan's claim to prove false over time.

As humans multiplied and this story was passed along, all of humanity has been given the opportunity to see the consequences of making the self sovereign. In other words, all the suffering we see around us is a result of this, and is proving a point. It's interesting, many people point to human suffering as a reason to not believe in God. I see it as the exact opposite.


Also, no covenants "failed". They were simply replaced. Although the majority of mankind has always been alienated from God, He has always had faithful ones that he has clued-in to aspects of his purpose and means to right the wrongs caused by the Devil and the first human pair. Covenants and prophecy are all part of that.



Like it or not, science has disproven the idea of the world only being around 6,000 years old. Ironically, there's evidence in the Bible that actually would add credence to scientific discoveries, but most thumpers actually have to undo years of brainwashing to see it. :huh

:lecture One of the many problems with Fundamentalism.


I'm also of the opinion that someone must accept a gift even when given.

Agreed 100%.
 
That's one of the most important questions that you could ask. And it is all about God's sole right to sovereignty (which is the main thrust of the Bible). Here's an abbreviated answer:

Adam and Eve had free will. God gave them one command: Don't eat from this one tree. That tree had no magical properties, it was a symbol of God's right to say what is good and bad. The Devil implied that God was withholding something valuable from them, and that they would become 'like God - knowing good and bad' if they were to eat from the tree. Eve (and later Adam) fell for it. I personally do not believe God chose to foresee that one of his angels would defect and become the Devil (liar) and Satan (resister) - though he was certainly prepared to deal with it. And I don't believe he predestined Adam and Eve to sin (eat from the tree) - though, again, he was prepared to deal with the possibility.

As to the question of why not respond immediately with a Messiah, or whatever means God would choose:

Think of it this way: If a student in a math class were to question a teachers method, what would be the best response? She could either 1) respond immediately - perhaps sending the student to the principles office, or 2) she could give him the chalk and say, "alright, prove it." Which would be more effective? If she sent him to the principle's office the students would be left wondering if the defiant student possibly had a valid point. On the other hand, allowing the student time to make his point would show everyone present the flaws in his objection.


Now compare that to Eden. When the Devil defected and convinced Eve (and Adam) that they could have success by choosing a way contrary to God's will, God was aware of all the millions of angels that were watching. What would be the most effective way to prove the point? Allow Satan's claim to prove false over time.

As humans multiplied and this story was passed along, all of humanity has been given the opportunity to see the consequences of making the self sovereign. In other words, all the suffering we see around us is a result of this, and is proving a point. It's interesting, many people point to human suffering as a reason to not believe in God. I see it as the exact opposite.


Also, no covenants "failed". They were simply replaced. Although the majority of mankind has always been alienated from God, He has always had faithful ones that he has clued-in to aspects of his purpose and means to right the wrongs caused by the Devil and the first human pair. Covenants and prophecy are all part of that.


I'm not sure you're following our conversation. I understand and would agree with a lot of what you're saying but my questions were more rhetorical in nature and had the Messiah as the beginning, not a response. As for the covenants, I guess I worded that poorly. What I'm getting at is the covenants were necessary because things were failing not the covenants themselves failing. This was of course all in response to the idea that Christ was a part of the creation story because of prophecies, to which I understood him to be the final covenant because "things weren't working out again."
 
The Bible does not teach Free Will....its teaches that God is Sovereign and that God chose the believer first.No where in Scripture does it teach man has a spiritual Free Will to choose God on his own.

Actually teemu the Bible does speak of man's free will such as Matthew 13:13 when Jesus announces that if those who rejected his teachings would just open their eyes and ears they would be able to receive the Kingdom of Heaven, indicating that it's up to the individual person.

That doesn't diminish God's sovereignty it proves it. God is so sovereign that even man's free will to choose cannot undo it. It's one of those amazing mysteries. If you CHOOSE to be saved, then you were chosen by God from the beginning. If you reject Christ, then you were not chosen from the beginning. Free will and predestination can co-exist under an all-powerful God.
 
Actually teemu the Bible does speak of man's free will such as Matthew 13:13 when Jesus announces that if those who rejected his teachings would just open their eyes and ears they would be able to receive the Kingdom of Heaven, indicating that it's up to the individual person.

That doesn't diminish God's sovereignty it proves it. God is so sovereign that even man's free will to choose cannot undo it. It's one of those amazing mysteries. If you CHOOSE to be saved, then you were chosen by God from the beginning. If you reject Christ, then you were not chosen from the beginning. Free will and predestination can co-exist under an all-powerful God.

you make an interesting point and I was basically saying that but enforced by Scripture I posted,though ultimately its God who chooses you first...like a Shephard choosing his Sheep..Your "Choice" came because God gave you the ability to choose him in the first place...

Why? because all men are born spiritually dead,as the natural man does not want God and has no real ability to choose God.If it was up to him,he wouldn't choose God.The only people who had true Free Will was Adam and Eve,after they failed,the curse of Sin is inherited by everyone born that has ever existed (past and future),are born spiritually dead and born depraved and not knowing God.
 
I think I get what you're saying. So when someone is born it is already written if they will believe one day. They don't make the choice.

I'm not sure I can subscribe to that. You could cherry pick Bible verses that contradict that idea all day long. It's an interesting take though. It feels a bit to close to the Jehovah's Witness chosen 144,000 for my taste. I'm also of the opinion that someone must accept a gift even when given.

not even close to a Jehovah Witness...they do not believe Jesus was God in flesh then denying the Trinity (Father,Son,Holy Spirit)

Salvation is open to EVERYONE,but God does have an Elected number...He knows who will be saved in the end

Do you believe everyone is going to Heaven? according to the Bible,many are going to Hell..so Jesus Christ died for ALL that the Father given him

John 6:37
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."


John 17:9-10
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

It basically comes down to this- God is Sovereign,He knows the beggining and the end...he knows who will be with him...in that statement it gives over to that God has predestinated (Romans 8:28-30) the believer and (Ephesians 1:4) before the foundation of the world.He knew you before you were even born
 
Actually teemu the Bible does speak of man's free will such as Matthew 13:13 when Jesus announces that if those who rejected his teachings would just open their eyes and ears they would be able to receive the Kingdom of Heaven, indicating that it's up to the individual person.

That doesn't diminish God's sovereignty it proves it. God is so sovereign that even man's free will to choose cannot undo it. It's one of those amazing mysteries. If you CHOOSE to be saved, then you were chosen by God from the beginning. If you reject Christ, then you were not chosen from the beginning. Free will and predestination can co-exist under an all-powerful God.

Oxymoronic. If you're predestined to reject Christ, there's no "free will of choice," only the misconception of it. :cuckoo:

The proper way to word it would be more along the lines of God can see your future when you're given the breath of life, but it's the destiny you choose. Not a destiny designed for you.
 
Oxymoronic. If you're predestined to reject Christ, there's no "free will of choice," only the misconception of it. :cuckoo:

The proper way to word it would be more along the lines of God can see your future when you're given the breath of life, but it's the destiny you choose. Not a destiny designed for you.

100% agreed.
 
Oxymoronic. If you're predestined to reject Christ, there's no "free will of choice," only the misconception of it. :cuckoo:

The proper way to word it would be more along the lines of God can see your future when you're given the breath of life, but it's the destiny you choose. Not a destiny designed for you.

That's how I always saw it. He knows, but He doesn't choose for us.
 
I'm not sure you're following our conversation. I understand and would agree with a lot of what you're saying but my questions were more rhetorical in nature and had the Messiah as the beginning, not a response. As for the covenants, I guess I worded that poorly. What I'm getting at is the covenants were necessary because things were failing not the covenants themselves failing. This was of course all in response to the idea that Christ was a part of the creation story because of prophecies, to which I understood him to be the final covenant because "things weren't working out again."

Earlier someone mentioned the first prophecy in the Bible (Khev?) where the Messiah is referred to as the "seed" that would crush the serpent. The ransom sacrifice of the perfect man Christ paid for the sin of the perfect man Adam. God had that all worked out pretty much from the moment Adam and Eve sinned.

You asked why not right away - Messiah, ransom, etc. (I think). That's what I was responding to.



Oxymoronic. If you're predestined to reject Christ, there's no "free will of choice," only the misconception of it. :cuckoo:

The proper way to word it would be more along the lines of God can see your future when you're given the breath of life, but it's the destiny you choose. Not a destiny designed for you.

100% agreed.
 
Oxymoronic. If you're predestined to reject Christ, there's no "free will of choice," only the misconception of it. :cuckoo:

The proper way to word it would be more along the lines of God can see your future when you're given the breath of life, but it's the destiny you choose. Not a destiny designed for you.

Actually I find the proper way to word something is the way that lines up with Scripture. But you're certainly free to use your God given free will to believe whatever you like. :)
 
Actually I find the proper way to word something is the way that lines up with Scripture. But you're certainly free to use your God given free will to believe whatever you like. :)

Then your interpretation, which lacks a man's free will to choose, is as flawed as teemu's thinking God and Christ are one. It devalues the whole concept of the religion itself.
 
Then your interpretation, which lacks a man's free will to choose, is as flawed as teemu's thinking God and Christ are one. It devalues the whole concept of the religion itself.

Obviously you completely misunderstood what I wrote. No point in letting this conversation turn into another one of your "Loki possessed everyone in The Avengers" deals. So once again, believe whatever you want Nam. :)
 
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