Would The Dark Knight have been any good if it had been made by Americans?

[Captain Britain]

I think that the overall American character of the movie was undeniable. Yes, some of the thesps were Brits, but the whole superhero genre is as American as Mom and Apple pie. Even the new Bond is a direct response to Bourne. I'm afraid indigenous Brit movies today tend to be either the cockney gangster rubbish that Ritchie produces, or depressing kitchen sink/ council (social) estate (project) that Ken Loach seems to like.
Brits are big in Hollywood, look at wor geordies Ridley and Tony Scott, Sam Mendes etc and the dozens of Brit actors, male and female who are huge over there and we can be proud of that. Without American money, however, there would hardly be a British film industry. I know what you are saying captain, but as someone with his ass planted on a fence in the mid-Atlantic I'd say you were in danger (probably inadvertently) of insulting our American friends by hinting at a degree of cultural superiority. Big Budget Movies are financed to achieve a certain return and therefore have to appeal to a certain mass demographic, usually the American teenage male, it is by ignoring such basic market philosophies that rendered the British film industry almost extinct.

The simple answer IMHO therefore is: No!

In answer to what you say above, which I've emboldened - definitely not! I've loved all things American for most of my life and definitely since I first saw Star Wars in 1977. I love American culture and movies, and on the whole I dislike British films, with very few exceptions, as they just seem small to me - small and self-important, most of the time.

But I really think TDK benefited from its foreign input (and not just British) for the reasons I described above, just as I think recent Bond films have benefited from the input of American writers like Bruce Feirstein, Michael France and Paul Haggis (and could have done with losing the services of their British writers Purvis and Wade!). In fact, it would be interesting to see Bond get an American director next time (there's never been one has there?).

It's not about asserting cultural superiority, its just that sometimes mixing things up produces very cool results, like TDK.

And incidentally - is the superhero genre really as American as Mom and apple pie? Superheroes in the first place were invented by a couple of second generation immigrants, and Batman's look was based partly on European influences.

 

[darthviper107]

Well, just think about it. Are there any important superheroes that aren't American? (not counting extraterrestrial)

 

[Bannister]

I've been thinking for a while that the reason The Dark Knight worked is because it had so little American input. It had a completely different feel to almost every other big summer movie - no reliance on 'hell, yeah!' crowd-pleasing moments, an almost mittel-European fairy tale darkness, and the removal of all those childish action-movie cliches that marred Batman Begins (ninja training, smart-ass comebacks, etc etc).

Most of this has to be down to Christopher Nolan and his brother, and the fact that David Goyer had less involvement with TDK, but you've got to hand it to the cast - of the seven principals only Gyllenhaal, Freeman and Eckhardt were American, and frankly, they made much less impression then Bale, Caine, Oldman and Ledger - maybe they were less inclined to take risks with their performances. And a lot of the production crew were British.

I personally think that handing the movie over to non-Americans was a huge factor in what made it such a great film. First, they brought a European sensibility to a character that is pretty gothic already; second, you can sense their reverence for the seventies cop movies and city movies that don't really have any equal in British cinema; and third, all the people involved were immensely talented already, but I reckon being put in charge of TDK must have been a hell of a fun challenge for them, and encouraged them all to raise their game in a playful way rather than just turning in good work. You can really tell that Oldman and Caine are enjoying themselves; and not being American must have created a kind of camaraderie among them from which I imagine they drew strength. I just don't get the same 'game-raising' vibe from Gyllenhall and Eckhardt, although their performances were perfectly adequate.

I guess also the film was more questioning and less obviously affirming, which is more of a British trait then American - but in this case it was what made it interesting. You felt like you made your own way to the end of the film, and made up your own mind about the questions it posed, instead of being marched towards an inevitable triumph.

What do other people think?

Captain Britain, why do you hate America?

 

[mpgeist]

Chris Nolan and his brother were born in London and raised in Chicago. Chris Nolan stated part of his inspiration for Begins was Donner's Superman. Maybe it's just a good movie, because it's a good movie. I think this topic is pretty silly to be honest.

 

[thamesvalidude]

In answer to what you say above, which I've emboldened - definitely not! I've loved all things American for most of my life and definitely since I first saw Star Wars in 1977. I love American culture and movies, and on the whole I dislike British films, with very few exceptions, as they just seem small to me - small and self-important, most of the time.

But I really think TDK benefited from its foreign input (and not just British) for the reasons I described above, just as I think recent Bond films have benefited from the input of American writers like Bruce Feirstein, Michael France and Paul Haggis (and could have done with losing the services of their British writers Purvis and Wade!). In fact, it would be interesting to see Bond get an American director next time (there's never been one has there?).

It's not about asserting cultural superiority, its just that sometimes mixing things up produces very cool results, like TDK.

And incidentally - is the superhero genre really as American as Mom and apple pie? Superheroes in the first place were invented by a couple of second generation immigrants, and Batman's look was based partly on European influences.

Sounds like we're probably mostly in violent agreement then!

 

[Nocturne]

Well, just think about it. Are there any important superheroes that aren't American? (not counting extraterrestrial)

If you mean created by non-americans
Judge Dredd
The Watchmen
V from V for Vendetta
I don't know if it counts as Superhero but Neil Gaiman's Sandman re-interpenetration.
And Superman's half canadian too
Japanese Sentai shows which get a re-working such as Power Rangers, Sailor Moon etc.

Captain Britain asked an honest question and gave his evidence to explain why he believed that. That is the core of debate. Why should he not have a right to be proud of what something from the UK has been able to produce. Nolan does admittedly hold dual citizenship to the UK and the US. Maybe the question was too stand offish. But why should Americans be threatened by English patriotism when so much of the world is exposed to their own, from the Armageddon style American's save the world to the financing of English bashing films such as Braveheart (directed and starring an Australian and plays far too fast and loose with the truth to the point of pure fantasy)

I feel a lot of it would've come down to the director and cast in question a case of nurture as opposed to nationality.

 

[foolkiller]

I think it has to do with sticking to what makes Batman good and not letting studio suits muck with it. Or having the campy baggage that the 60's Batman brought to the non-Tim Burton films. These Batman movies are more influenced by the Dark Knight Returns Batman. The new Batman movies deal with the character that's what makes them good. Not having the baggage of getting enough one-liners in for Arnold as Mr. Freeze. When you stay true to what made a characters survive of 60+ years, then you have a winner. Just like Iron Man. It still amazes me that it retained the name "The Dark Knight" and some guys in a board room didn't force them to put "Batman" in the title of the movie somewhere.

 

[darthviper107]

If you mean created by non-americans
Judge Dredd
The Watchmen
V from V for Vendetta
I don't know if it counts as Superhero but Neil Gaiman's Sandman re-interpenetration.
And Superman's half canadian too
Japanese Sentai shows which get a re-working such as Power Rangers, Sailor Moon etc.

I mean superhero characters that aren't Americans or don't live in America.

I'd count V for Vendetta, but that's not really a superhero but a graphic novel.

 

[gdb]

The film, like America, is a melting pot and perhaps that is a part of why it speaks to so many people.

Although I do think Batman Begins might have done better if the Rutger Hauer character and the Scarecrow were played by stars with bigger names in America.

 

[darthviper107]

Really I think Cillian Murphy was a great choice in casting. He might not be a huge star but he's a very good actor and he's just a kind of weird person, like in the movie Red Eye, he can seem like the nicest guy but suddenly he can be completely evil.

 

[Captain Britain]

Captain Britain, why do you hate America?

I don't hate America, and I can't believe you drew that conclusion from anything I said - it's true that I've never been to the States (I hate flying) but I love reading about America, I've spent much of my life immersed in American popular culture, and I've never met an American I didn't like.

There's a lot of people in Britain and Europe who dislike America, for numerous reasons, many of them political, but I'm not one of them.

 

[LChinoz]

Think he was joking.

It is really hard to call the Dark Knight anything but a collaboration. Americans were an important part of the filmmaking process. But if we are talking about directors, like I said earlier I think Michael Mann would have created a gloomy, tension-filled cat and mouse crime drama similar to Nolan's in the Dark Knight. Nolan obviously took some inspiration from Mann's previous crime films like Heat.

 

[creature4000]

It's the man who directed... not the Nationality!

 

[Nocturne]

I mean superhero characters that aren't Americans or don't live in America.

I'd count V for Vendetta, but that's not really a superhero but a graphic novel.

There are plenty out there, but never really rise to the same prominence as their American counterpart, the Superhero is an American creation. The Japanese have their own version with the Sentai groups (Sailor moon etc)
found this list on Wikipedia
Hispanic Superheroes and X-Men has a large international roster.

Thing is that when a foreign property is developed for an American audience it's generally localised to an American setting a prime example being War of the Worlds. Only once has it been made as H.G. Wells originally wrote it (twice if you include the musical).

I just feel the melting pot of different nationalities allows everyone to gain exposure to something new (the same with the Lord of the Rings trilogy) is many different parts making up a larger whole, with the source material being developed by someone who clearly has a love for what they're working on and treating it with respect and believability no matter how fantastic the concept.

 

[aussieinnyc]

Although I do think Batman Begins might have done better if the Rutger Hauer character and the Scarecrow were played by stars with bigger names in America.

Why do you think this? Surely it's about the quality of the acting (although I can't say I was particularly impressed with Rutger Hauer) rather than whether or not someone has "star status". I can get that bigger name stars result in more box office draw, but with the actors (Bale, Neeson, Holmes, Oldman, etc) in the lead roles and the Batman franchise behind it, it don't think non-stars in a couple of the second-string roles would have made any difference. Not trying to be argumentative here, I'm legitimately interested in why you think this?

 

[darthCipan]

It doesn't matter what nationality the crews are..as long as they can produce a great movie like TDK, I wont complaint

 

[plasmid303]

I like Chinese food only if it's made by Chinese people.