The Mandalorian (Star Wars Live Action Series)

[xipotec]

Personally what I indifferently put up with in an animated series/cartoon - and I like Rebels a lot - is way different than live action. Time travel, ESP, alternate worlds, "having visions" etc. to me means "we wrote ourselves into a corner and can't come up with anything better to move things along".

Geez if u are going to reboot, just reboot. And Ahsoka surviving Vader was plot service.

Yes pretty much this. Honestly , Avengers was fun, but we all know they did the time travel thing as a way out of the over the top sensation they set up. The lazy way out of writing difficult plots is to give the happy ending using time travel.

Personally, time travel was perfected in BTTF as a story line, and should really be just left alone. The use of multiverses and TT to come up with interesting plots should be the exception , not the default fall back position.

SW should have enough lore and history behind it to survive in the future without Skywalkers AND Jedi if need be.

Problem is a good majority of the fanbase balks at anything that?s not a Male hero/Jedi or Bad guy in a black suit.


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[ZE_501]

[...]The lazy way out of writing difficult plots is to give the happy ending using time travel.[...]

Tell that to Nat and Tony you insensitive clod!1!

 

[ZE_501]

[...]Problem is a good majority of the fanbase balks at anything that?s not a Male hero/Jedi or Bad guy in a black suit.

Careful, you're gonna get branded as an SJW.

(I find the term an overused, vague, and lazy pejorative.)

 

[Sassafras]

I agree the de-aging tech isn't there yet, but I do think it has improved substantially as well. Word is that the CGI Luke here was a rush job done by a small team due to all the secrecy needed and the Covid-19 restrictions. I'm pretty sure they could have done a much better job if they had the normal manpower they would have without those constraints

That said, I would like Sebastian take that role though. I think Mark Hamill was open to Sebastian taking the role? When he was about to take off that cloak I was almost anticipating to see Sebastian's face.

Yeah, for sure it's improved; and there is the Covid thing. Hamill and Stan for sure have a friendly relationship; and Stan and Favreau I assume have met...but who knows how anyone actually feels. Sometimes I have the impression Hamill was/is ambivalent about returning to SW - not in some huge negative way tho. Like way back when he said he had to come back, as he would have had fans on his lawn with pitchforks lol.

I just get the impression career-wise, he, personally, didn't NEED another SW.

Actually I was expecting Ezra Bridger to be the Jedi - since Ahsoka had made an appearance. Or a totally new character which would have been a big surprise. Just didn't think that F & F would go the de-aging route for any character - if I had thought about it.

Yes pretty much this. Honestly , Avengers was fun, but we all know they did the time travel thing as a way out of the over the top sensation they set up. The lazy way out of writing difficult plots is to give the happy ending using time travel.

Personally, time travel was perfected in BTTF as a story line, and should really be just left alone. The use of multiverses and TT to come up with interesting plots should be the exception , not the default fall back position.

SW should have enough lore and history behind it to survive in the future without Skywalkers AND Jedi if need be.

Problem is a good majority of the fanbase balks at anything that?s not a Male hero/Jedi or Bad guy in a black suit.


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Didn't think much of time travel in EG - but lol neither the Russos or F & F have contacted me for advice.

As for Mando - well, that's part of my frustration. Was pretty intrigued by these Outer Rim denizens who were so far off the map, that these "royal Skywalkers" were just a rumor if anything. Just ordinary folks trying to get by - even the Client didn't look like he was living high on the hog.

E.g. it initially felt like F & F had really expanded the galaxy - even if Tatooine showed up more than once.
Now it feels IMO contracted/constrained, and WAY too familiar.

As for multiversing or whatever SW - yeah, sure, u could make it work...the black hole thing and/or warping time and space. Filoni is already into that kind of thing. Just don't think it's compelling, any more than the tired "traumatized child/teen person/alien is hiding their superpowers but will find their courage/sense of self/embrace individualism" and save the day. (Still mad at Filoni for bringing in that trope re Grogu)

To be fair - I don't KNOW that Season 3 etc. will just feel like rehash (tho this piece thinks so too https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/jon-favreau-hints-mandalorian-lead-sequel-trilogy/). And if there's a lot more about Mandalore - I will probably enjoy that part. Also hopefully more of Moff Gideon - 2 seasons in and we know very little about what was supposed to be the main villain.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I have no idea why I'm OK with time travel in Endgame but get nauseous at the thought of it in Star Wars...but I do.

Because it just doesn't belong in Star Wars. I think it's that simple. There was 40 years of SW history that never accounted for it, and certainly never needed it. The rules (and plot holes) that it creates didn't exist in SW reality.

Comic books have been using time travel and multiverses for decades. So when the MCU goes there, it's not establishing any rules that its 2D predecessor hadn't already introduced.

Likewise, a franchise like Star Trek was using time travel since its inception with the original series back in the 1960's. So that too is following its own (paradoxically "wrong") rules whenever the plot calls for it going forward.

Bringing time travel into SW after 40 years of history is such a gamechanger that it's hard for me to understand why anyone would use it for any reason other than fixing a major plot hole. There was no plot hole to fix in this case. The time travel was a premeditated plot device used for nothing more than to have a fakeout "death" for an animated character. Just awful on so many levels, imo.

 

[Sassafras]

Because it just doesn't belong in Star Wars. I think it's that simple. There was 40 years of SW history that never accounted for it, and certainly never needed it. The rules (and plot holes) that it creates didn't exist in SW reality.

Comic books have been using time travel and multiverses for decades. So when the MCU goes there, it's not establishing any rules that its 2D predecessor hadn't already introduced.

Likewise, a franchise like Star Trek was using time travel since its inception with the original series back in the 1960's. So that too is following its own (paradoxically "wrong") rules whenever the plot calls for it going forward.

Bringing time travel into SW after 40 years of history is such a gamechanger that it's hard for me to understand why anyone would use it for any reason other than fixing a major plot hole. There was no plot hole to fix in this case. The time travel was a premeditated plot device used for nothing more than to have a fakeout "death" for an animated character. Just awful on so many levels, imo.

Yep. And, re Rebels - so, OK, u get the fakeout death; then seconds later there's a lecture about how changing things like that can cause real problems so another character CAN'T be saved. WTF.

I can skate on lots of stuff like hyperspace and how the trackers work, and even kyber crystals and light sabers (like if a light saber responds to its owner? then how come anyone can use one?) but for *&^% sake try to pay attention to some logic within the supposed rules of created world.

Any and all Star Wars scripts *henceforth* should simply be Din D'jarin, Cara, with his new friends Boba & co. roaming around and blowing stuff up. Something straightforward that can't be messed up. Everyone gets in the Slave 1, flies to a planet, kicks &^%, and then next.

 

[TheDucky]

The major plot hole is the ST

 

[Khev]

Ahsoka didn't travel back in time, but Ezra *did.* Same consequences. The only way that Filoni could've made this work without the mess he made would've been to have Ahsoka be the only one who could access and utilize time portals. But by having Ahsoka interact with the Ezra from *three years* into the future, that event defined the rules for the entire universe that Star Wars exists in. That's kind of a big deal, imo.

When Ahsoka goes back to the moments after Vader had left the Sith temple, she goes back knowing exactly what Ezra will look and sound like three years from now. That means that not only can he not die during that time (otherwise her existence and memories become paradoxical), or have any new scars/blemishes, but *everything* must play out the same exact way in order to manifest the identical result. Not only must he arrive at that same point in stormtrooper gear and make the same exact decisions, but even one hair on his head being out of place would constitute an alternate reality.

If you want to handwave it away, you're doing so with a set of circumstances that limits the entire SW reality we've seen into either being a deterministic one, or a multiverse. No matter what, that event established rules which govern that reality.



Doesn't matter about Kanan. Ezra influenced past events. That's all it takes. JAWS has said it best: time travel and multiverses should never have been brought into Star Wars. People have been casually tossing around the phrase "ruined Star Wars" over the last few years. From my perspective, time travel as portrayed with the WBW is what can accomplish that more effectively than almost anything else you can do with it. And every time I see live-action Ahsoka, I'm reminded of this ill-conceived plot device. And more of it to come, I'm fairly certain.

See to me the Rebels time travel thing doesn't impact the rest of the Saga simply because I consider it a one-off gag in Rebels that I'm sure Filoni thought would be a "fun" way to have Ahsoka face Vader, not die, and have a convenient excuse for why she missed so much of the action leading up to the OT. I know that if you take each and every "canon" installment, whether it be a live-action film, TV cartoon, or comic book that every single event *should* be just as important or valid as any other but for my own enjoyment (and sanity, lol) I simply do not recognize them as such.

And since I overall enjoyed Rebels and am pretty much fine with it being canon I literally just handwave Ahsoka getting rescued as not making the universe rigidly deterministic *or* a multiverse because, well, I simply don't allow one TV cartoon episode to have that kind of power over the Saga.

If anything I see it as a forgivable continuity error within in the Saga at large. Ahsoka's time portal is a "ha ha, look at the Starbucks cup" moment and then something I otherwise ignore. I mean we already do that for other continuity errors unless you want to suddenly pretend that General Dodonna is a "changeling" like Zam Wesell who literally changed his own facial features between RO and ANH.

 

[ajp4mgs]

See to me the Rebels time travel thing doesn't impact the rest of the Saga simply because I consider it a one-off gag in Rebels that I'm sure Filoni thought would be a "fun" way to have Ahsoka face Vader, not die, and have a convenient excuse for why she missed so much of the action leading up to the OT. I know that if you take each and every "canon" installment, whether it be a live-action film, TV cartoon, or comic book that every single event *should* be just as important or valid as any other but for my own enjoyment (and sanity, lol) I simply do not recognize them as such.

And since I overall enjoyed Rebels and am pretty much fine with it being canon I literally just handwave Ahsoka getting rescued as not making the universe rigidly deterministic *or* a multiverse because, well, I simply don't allow one TV cartoon episode to have that kind of power over the Saga.

If anything I see it as a forgivable continuity error within in the Saga at large. Ahsoka's time portal is a "ha ha, look at the Starbucks cup" moment and then something I otherwise ignore. I mean we already do that for other continuity errors unless you want to suddenly pretend that General Dodonna is a "changeling" like Zam Wesell who literally changed his own facial features between RO and ANH.

Hey man, if you're good with it, then I'm happy for you. If I could see it being something as insignificant as you consider it, I'd probably be right there with you.

I just can't tolerate time travel in SW, and I hate that it was brought in for what amounts to nothing more than a gag. And that is presuming, of course, that it doesn't get used again. And considering thousands of years of Jedi history would've had potentially the same access to the WBW, I don't want to bother thinking about all the logic and weirdness of that. The whole thing just isn't my cup of tea.

 

[Khev]

Hey man, if you're good with it, then I'm happy for you. If I could see it being something as insignificant as you consider it, I'd probably be right there with you.

I just can't tolerate time travel in SW, and I hate that it was brought in for what amounts to nothing more than a gag. And that is presuming, of course, that it doesn't get used again. And considering thousands of years of Jedi history would've had potentially the same access to the WBW, I don't want to bother thinking about all the logic and weirdness of that. The whole thing just isn't my cup of tea.

I agree with your entire second paragraph and so I see that I have three options:

1. Recognize the WBW Rebels ep as the canon/universe defining event that it technically was if you take it at face value.
2. Reject the entire Rebels series from my own personal canon.
3. Accept Rebels but reject the idea that there's a multiverse or a predefined universe with a lack of any free will, and just take that one episode as a silly one-off gag that is technically a continuity error with the rest of the Saga.

I find that I get the most enjoyment out of simply choosing Option #3.

I feel your pain though if you're unable to do that and must otherwise reconcile such off putting events into a universe where they absolutely do not belong.

 

[Khev]

In other news my son and I finally got to dun, dun, dun The Last Jedi in our months long binge of the entire Saga (starting from TPM and including all canon movies and TV episodes) and this was the first time we watched TLJ since finishing Season 2 of The Mandalorian.

Some interesting bits of recontextualizing post Mando:

1. The horror on Luke's face while looking at the burning Jedi Temple and bodies of his students hits home even harder now that we know that there is the very real possibility that Grogu was among the dead. We finally have a potential face for one of the many that would have caused Luke to say "I will NEVER put another soul in such risk again."

2. Now that we've seen him drawing his lightsaber and wiping out an entire platoon of Dark Troopers only for everything to still one day go to pot it gives an interesting new context to his question "You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?" He knows that cutting down bad guys isn't enough. You need to both defeat them mentally so that they never rise again while also inspiring your own side to never stand for another Empire. That further drives home how important his actions on Crait were and that things didn't start to turn around until the inspiration of his actions spread through the galaxy as we saw with the Canto Bight kids playing with the Luke toy.

3. When Rose's blaster shots ricocheted off Phasma's armor while she drew her silver spear against Finn my son said "does she have Beskar AND Mando's spear? Did she defeat him and take the spear?" Well such a question certainly makes HER a hell of a lot cooler, lol.

I love how the new generation of kids who are totally oblivious to Doomcockian idiocy are connecting their own dots between the trilogies.

Also I'm more and more convinced that TLJ is either the best or the second best made SW film after SW and ESB.

 

[TheDucky]

In other news my son and I finally got to dun, dun, dun The Last Jedi in our months long binge of the entire Saga (starting from TPM and including all canon movies and TV episodes) and this was the first time we watched TLJ since finishing Season 2 of The Mandalorian.

Some interesting bits of recontextualizing post Mando:

I have to say, every time you do this, it is Grade A comedy. Makes me shake my head and chuckle.

1. The horror on Luke's face while looking at the burning Jedi Temple and bodies of his students hits home even harder now that we know that there is the very real possibility that Grogu was among the dead. We finally have a potential face for one of the many that would have caused Luke to say "I will NEVER put another soul in such risk again."

You really must be delusional if you think Disney is killing Grogu/Baby Yoda off screen in a failing trilogy. Baby Yoda single handedly saved the franchise. They won't kill him.

2. Now that we've seen him drawing his lightsaber and wiping out an entire platoon of Dark Troopers only for everything to still one day go to pot it gives an interesting new context to his question "You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?" He knows that cutting down bad guys isn't enough. You need to both defeat them mentally so that they never rise again while also inspiring your own side to never stand for another Empire. That further drives home how important his actions on Crait were and that things didn't start to turn around until the inspiration of his actions spread through the galaxy as we saw with the Canto Bight kids playing with the Luke toy.

3. When Rose's blaster shots ricocheted off Phasma's armor while she drew her silver spear against Finn my son said "does she have Beskar AND Mando's spear? Did she defeat him and take the spear?" Well such a question certainly makes HER a hell of a lot cooler, lol.

I love how the new generation of kids who are totally oblivious to Doomcockian idiocy are connecting their own dots between the trilogies.

Khev, I'm fairly certain that is only your child, and only oblivious because kids of a certain age tend to follow their parents and are exposed to information only their parents show them. As I have shown with hard facts, from Halloween costume sales to action figure sales to google trends to comic sales, a clear majority of kids do not like the ST and do not think about the ST, unless they have a parent suffering from STDS.

'Khev's Son, did your son ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Doomcock the wise? I thought not. It's not a story your father would tell you. It's a Fandom Menace legend. Darth Doomcock was a Dark Lord of the Rumor, so powerful and so wise he could use Youtube to influence the fans to force Disney to create new timelines... He had such a knowledge of the rumors that he could even kill the trilogies he didn't care about and save the ones he cared about from dying. The dark side of the Rumor is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice, Star Wars Theory. everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.'

- TheDucky

Also I'm more and more convinced that TLJ is either the best or the second best made SW film after SW and ESB.

 

[JAWS]

Also I'm more and more convinced that TLJ is either the best or the second best made SW film after SW and ESB.

I know you are saying "best made"


But all the non Luke stuff has to count against it. I don't care how well its framed or shot. You can film a turd with all the artistry in the world but its still a turd.

 

[JAWS]

Khev, I'm fairly certain that is only your child, and only oblivious because kids of a certain age tend to follow their parents and are exposed to information only their parents show them.

That depends on how you bring them up. I use to always get my kids opinion on a film first. That way they were not swayed by me.

Neither of my kids grew up SW fans Not big ones anyways. No interest in the toys or anything. Lego SW was another story. They loved the games and thus liked the toys.

But I will go back to what I always say. There was way more competition for the my child's interest then there was when I was a kid or even you Ducky.

My kids were into Godzilla, Monsters, Marvel, and DC much more then SW.

But I agree with Khev on this.. Todays kids wont have the issues with the ST that you have. They may be indifferent to SW in general but they wont have the hate on for it that you and the others do.

We have proof of this by looking at your generation and its love for the PT.

As I have shown with hard facts, from Halloween costume sales to action figure sales to google trends to comic sales, a clear majority of kids do not like the ST and do not think about the ST, unless they have a parent suffering from STDS.

This will always make me laugh.. Until Covid 2020 toy sales were steadily going down. Plus I will go back to my original argument.. SW is not the only kid on the block anymore. Its easy to dismiss as "Mom and Dad's" fav movie.

Plus I guarantee you if the PT was not made when it was and just came out when the ST came out it probably would have followed the same pattern as the ST.. Even you would hate it. You would not be blinded by nostalgia for the films. You would easily ignore the movies for the more impressively made Marvel flms.

I cant imagine what sort of hate the PT would endure during the full blown internet age. I mean it was around back then but not like it is now.

Everyone would be screaming for a redo


My point is not to slam on the PT. Just that the ST had its issues but it picked the wrong time to have its issues. A time when people can post ever tiny thought instantly, a time when huge blockbuster films are coming out not once or twice a year but every freaking month. A time when Toys just don't grab kids like they use to. A time when Most kids would rather dress up like an Avenger r batman than any SW character.

So yeah the hate is strong.. I get it. But no more than the PT would have got if it was released today.

Again I am not dumping on the PT. I am not even sure I am that much a bigger fan of the ST then the PT. Both trilogies are frustrating when I think about what could have been.

On this we agree

 

[Khev]

I know you are saying "best made"


But all the non Luke stuff has to count against it. I don't care how well its framed or shot. You can film a turd with all the artistry in the world but its still a turd.

Yes I know you hate all the non-Luke scenes in TLJ and rate it last of all the SW movies but I simply do not agree with that assessment.

Even Rose and Holdo who do indeed have silly looks and are fun to make fun of in discussions like these just don't bother me when I'm actually watching the movie. And then the highlights like the Luke scenes, Snoke scenes, the opening battle and Crait, it's all so beautiful, well written and well paced. Of course it isn't perfect but even the stuff I wish was done differently was still done well and the entire film itself has such a confidence about the story it's telling (as opposed to say TFA and TROS which have a certain desperation to appeal to everyone at all times on all levels) that I can't help but respect it.

I know that there is a legion of screaming haters that will rage against this movie until their dying breath but I don't care, I love it anyway.

 

[Khev]

Khev, I'm fairly certain that is only your child, and only oblivious because kids of a certain age tend to follow their parents and are exposed to information only their parents show them.

Nope. His favorite SW is the Filoni stuff (TCW, Rebels, Mando) and I make no effort to derail his preferences. I just let him watch SW without the BS YouTube commentary and sit back and watch him enjoy it all. He is blissfully ignorant of the Lucas vs. Filoni vs. KK silliness and takes it all as one interconnected story. When we rewatched ESB a couple months back and Yoda said "no, there is another" he even asked if that might be in reference to Grogu.

I am fully convinced that people who discover the existing movies and shows for the first time will just enjoy the new interconnected canon without any of the weeping and wailing of people married to one specific writer or director's vision, and that includes George himself.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I agree with your entire second paragraph and so I see that I have three options:

1. Recognize the WBW Rebels ep as the canon/universe defining event that it technically was if you take it at face value.
2. Reject the entire Rebels series from my own personal canon.
3. Accept Rebels but reject the idea that there's a multiverse or a predefined universe with a lack of any free will, and just take that one episode as a silly one-off gag that is technically a continuity error with the rest of the Saga.

I find that I get the most enjoyment out of simply choosing Option #3.

I feel your pain though if you're unable to do that and must otherwise reconcile such off putting events into a universe where they absolutely do not belong.

I've been leaning towards a combination of your options #1 and #2.

Rebels is canon; the WBW is the nexus for a multiverse because closed loop doesn't fit a reality where "always in motion is the future;" the theatrical OT (with no sign of Hayden Anakin and PT plots) suddenly exists again in one of those multiverse realities; and that's the one I choose to follow as my personal canon.

This way, the WBW/Rebels lemons get turned into a delicious lemonade. The SW I grew up with becomes "official" again. And while it may not be the main (ongoing) canon timeline, it's the one without any of the subsequent crap that I can't stand. I'd just go on watching the Mandoverse the way I watched Dark Fate: open to being entertained by it, but not gonna be part of my personal canon.

 

[JAWS]

Yes I know you hate all the non-Luke scenes in TLJ and rate it last of all the SW movies but I simply do not agree with that assessment.

Even Rose and Holdo who do indeed have silly looks and are fun to make fun of in discussions like these just don't bother me when I'm actually watching the movie. And then the highlights like the Luke scenes, Snoke scenes, the opening battle and Crait, it's all so beautiful, well written and well paced. Of course it isn't perfect but even the stuff I wish was done differently was still done well and the entire film itself has such a confidence about the story it's telling (as opposed to say TFA and TROS which have a certain desperation to appeal to everyone at all times on all levels) that I can't help but respect it.

I know that there is a legion of screaming haters that will rage against this movie until their dying breath but I don't care, I love it anyway.

 

[ironwez20]

Selling my pod & the child from the deluxe beskar set if anyone?s interested.
In the uk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anybody call the cops yet? This dude wants to sell his own child

 

[JAWS]

Nope. His favorite SW is the Filoni stuff (TCW, Rebels, Mando) and I make no effort to derail his preferences. I just let him watch SW without the BS YouTube commentary and sit back and watch him enjoy it all. He is blissfully ignorant of the Lucas vs. Filoni vs. KK silliness and takes it all as one interconnected story. When we rewatched ESB a couple months back and Yoda said "no, there is another" he even asked if that might be in reference to Grogu.

Its a lot of fun watching your kids discover and enjoy something we ourselves loved isnt it?

Though my kids did not love SW they were into many other films that I loved as a kid.

I am fully convinced that people who discover the existing movies and shows for the first time will just enjoy the new interconnected canon without any of the weeping and wailing of people married to one specific writer or director's vision, and that includes George himself.

yep.