Star Wars: Andor (September 21st, 2022)

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So instead of ROTJ being a freaky fluke occurrence Mando is now saying that any physical contact with the back of Fett's jetpack would send him spiralling wildly out of control.
Or that's what ROTJ showed, when Han hits any spot blindly triggers it by accident.
Mando is just acknowledging it, and implying it's likely not any spot, but could be a specific spot/flaw. :lol
 
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Funny seeing like 6 pages of selective bitter fan crying about how only Disney portrays trooper incompetence... :lol
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Oops can't use the "they let them go" excuse, how many did Han take out solo.
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Yeah that could never happen
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:lol
Hmm... argues against "selective bitter fan crying"... with some highly selective bitter fan crying. :lol

While I've already stated that the OT is not 100% in terms of depiction of stormies (I mentioned Han chasing them on the DS and Ben's mind trick) the two examples - cherry picked from the very small number in the OT - you've offered up beyond Ewoks aren't exactly iron-clad.

Certainly to the degree of all the D+ series' repeated Benny Hill Brigade pattern of huge platoon of stormies arrives, only to be effortlessly killed within moments using sticks or a woman's hand slaps, with stormies inflicting zero damage to the other side. To the point where it defeats most of the story tension - as soon as you see those troopers coming, you wait bored for the pile of white armor to appear.


- In D94 given the massive barrage of laser fire hitting around the troopers, huge chunks of falling masonry, and cuts to Chewie in the cockpit in that moment, it seems reasonable that the firepower directed at the troopers also comes from the Falcon, not just Han's pistol "solo." The firepower certainly seems way beyond what a single pistol is capable of in the OT. And given that the last shot of D94 shows the full compliment of sandtroopers all standing and firing, despite several hitting the deck moments earlier, no troopers were apparently killed or even seriously injured due to Han+Chewie's efforts.:dunno:lol

- And in terms of the Mos Eisley locked door, if you were watching a scene of couple of on-the-run teens being relentlessly hunted in a WWII era city, and a handful of Nazi soldiers were quickly searching a labyrinth of alleys/streets and a Nazi soldier checks a door, finds it locked and moves on, would you really dismiss those soldiers as a bunch of idiots - or just assume that the locked door (given doors aren't usually left unlocked, making it hard for an on-the-run person to just sneak in) would have also denied entry to the on-the-run teens? The issue with that Mos Eisley door moment is the way it's shot/cut (3PO closing door right before they arrive,) not so much what the troopers do.:lecture


To reiterate: baldy Boba using sticks and women using hand slaps to kill stormies >>>> care bears using sticks to kill stormies.

Even beyond baldy being the hero, the fact that the care bears are in a single extended sequence in a single movie and the D+ Benny Hill Brigade of stromies happens over and over, both within a series and across multiple series (countless hours of content, guaranteed to also be in "Andor" and "Ahsoka") is what makes this a problem WAY beyond cherry picking at the handful of examples from the OT.
 
the dumbing down of stormtroopers only really began in ROTJ
What you^ first argued.

Then after a couple of gifs show it's never been 100% one way or the other, you move your goal post.
the OT is not 100% in terms of depiction of stormies
That's right, point is they've always been depicted mixed, before ROTJ and after, portrayed as competent when necessary to seem a threat, and incompetent when the heroes need to win, or get away.
This didn't begin with with ROTJ as you claimed, or something only disney does. It was part of SW from the go.

In the OT, soldiers of Empire:

- brutally muscle their way onto the Tantive IV, either killing or marching away humiliated all rebels, then actually shoot Leia to take her before Vader.
- Tortured both Leia and Han, and to a lesser degree Chewie
- blasted 3PO apart without hesitation
- mercilessly won the battle of Hoth
- literally fried Beru and Owen
- froze Han (uncertain if he would live) while forcing his friends to watch
- massacred Jawas just for selling the droids and even covered it up
- wiped out an entire planet with a superweapon... just as a demo, really just for the hell of it
- kill rebel pilots one after another in the battle of Yavin (and if not for the force would have won)

This is just a sampling. They are merciless, very competent and successful - and NONE of this stuff would be allowed to happen in a Disney show.
Your cherry picking ^ and attributing to troopers "competent and successful" is outrageous , when you then accuse Kebron of doing exactly what you did.
It's not like Disney Star Wars has been showing the Empire in kinder gentler light.

Some things we've seen in Disney Star Wars. Dead Jedi bodies used as bait, genocide of a species a couple, cutting off citizen body parts in public, kidnapping kids from parents and turning them into sociopaths or just killing them, setting houses on fire with people inside, slaughtering Rebel soldiers after disarming them, and dragging people through streets and snapping necks as examples of what soldiers of the Empire do from the Disney Star Wars.
Most of that is Vader ... I mean there's a ton of stuff I could have listed for Vader... - in the OT.
Look at your own outrageous list.:lol

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Gilroy is out to show the Empire and it's troops as a legit threat in the Andor series.
While R1 had it's moments it's also the film where all the heroes died, He's already stated this is a somewhat more serious take.
And going by most of his recent work (watched the Bourne series and Beirut) , I don't think Gilroy will lend himself to much to the slapshtick.
What he is doing is a more serious spy thriller.
Seemed part of his condition to work was absolute control, hence the more serious tone.
I think you might be complaining about the wrong guy, and wrong series.





When it starts, cue people now complaining it's to serious and grim, and not enough funny scenes of troopers getting bonked! :lol
 
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What you^ first argued.


Now you've moved your goal post.
Point is they've always been portrayed as competent when necessary to seem a threat, and incompetent when the heroes need to win, or get away.
This didn't start with just ROTJ, or something disney only does.



Your cherry picking and attributing to troopers "competent and successful" is laughable, when you then accuse Kebron of doing exactly what you did.
You're getting your fruits all mixed up. And omg, I'm accusing Kebron? :horror Kebron was the one who introduced sarcasm and poseur faux-superiority. This is a discussion about something important. I care about SW, and something's gone wrong. So you discuss - not do the meme/bub-bye bs.

What I'm saying is that there are very few examples of ineffective imperial forces in the OT - despite your cherry-picked examples, they are overwhelmingly effective, frightening, and critically (for stakes, tension and the story) seem they will win against the heroes.

That is not the case in the D+ series. If in the OT, imperial forces are 80-90% effective and 10-20% not, the D+ is reversed. The D+ Benny Hill Brigade shows up over and over and over, across multiple series (yes, soon to be Andor/Ahsoka too) - and it's a HUGE problem.

But this is where cherry picking, confusion and conflation comes in.

Yes, (most of the time) heroes obviously can't be killed. Yes, obviously all stories have the hero with the machine gun killing many soldiers while those soldiers all somehow miss ("Commando," anyone?). This is narrative conceit. Obviously, in these moments, you run the risk of making those soldiers look like idiots. But you balance this out with context: by showing those soldiers otherwise as not just very competent but certain to win.

Overwhelmingly, we need to see their victories, their power, their prowess - make us feel it's impossible to defeat them.

So in this regard, stories need to do two things to work: first, they need to show heroes as competent, and second, they need to show the adversaries as not just more competent, but good enough to beat the heroes (even though we all know that the heroes will triumph - so yes, it's a conceit.)

It's a balance, because you sometimes need to show things like the "Commando" example above (even if you want to make those moments as realistic as possible using staging and injuries/deaths on the good guy side, and not going the "Commando" route like the totally comedy of the Jabiim stormie assault.)

But if you ONLY show the first thing, and not the second thing, you lose stakes, tension and more: it makes the heroes look much less heroic, and it robs stories of their wider real-world relevance. Because all around the world there are forces that the Imperials are symbolic of, and they are brutal, very competent and they are winning. They don't line up to get slapped dead like D+ stormies do.
 
the dumbing down of stormtroopers only really began in ROTJ
In the OT, soldiers of Empire:

- brutally muscle their way onto the Tantive IV, either killing or marching away humiliated all rebels, then actually shoot Leia to take her before Vader.
- Tortured both Leia and Han, and to a lesser degree Chewie
- blasted 3PO apart without hesitation
- mercilessly won the battle of Hoth
- literally fried Beru and Owen
- froze Han (uncertain if he would live) while forcing his friends to watch
- massacred Jawas just for selling the droids and even covered it up
- wiped out an entire planet with a superweapon... just as a demo, really just for the hell of it
- kill rebel pilots one after another in the battle of Yavin (and if not for the force would have won)

This is just a sampling. They are merciless, very competent and successful - and NONE of this stuff would be allowed to happen in a Disney show.
What I'm saying [now] is that there are very few examples of ineffective imperial forces in the OT in against the heroes.
Seems to me, the cherry picking was all you, not only outrageously exaggerated their competence, but conflated troopers with things others did.
Then when shown otherwise, you changed your argument.
Point is they've always been depicted both ways, before ROTJ and after, portrayed as competent when necessary to seem a threat, and incompetent when the heroes need to win, or get away.
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This didn't begin with ROTJ as you claimed, or something only disney does. It was part of the SW theme from the go.
I care about SW, and something's gone wrong.
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Oh no! :lol

Ok. moving on, to Andor...

As far as portrayal of the Imps,
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“She is a true, true believer,” Tony Gilroy says. “She is a really hardcore advocate for the ISB; she is relentless. She is inspired. She has deep insights into what the rebellion might be thinking and what they might be doing next, anticipating their behaviors.” For Toby Haynes: “The ISB are the worst of the worst. They’ve got their spies everywhere, and they’re listening to everybody and putting all the pieces together.
Dedra is .... ruthless, she’s fiercely intelligent and she’s uncompromising.”
....“She will do anything for the cause and so much of the time, she’s looking around feeling like a lot of her colleagues are very mediocre….For me, although she’s on the side of the villains, she’s also evangelical in her belief in the Empire, and, in common with all great villains, she has this absolute belief that what she’s doing is right, no matter what she does—and she does some seriously reprehensible things.”
Cue the predictable cries of - they are only made to look incompetent to make a woman look good! :lol

Again the more "powerful" Imperial Troops, Officers and their Technology were always portrayed as flawed, incompetent and blindly over confidant, constantly exposed when the scrappy, piece of junk rebel heroes needed to win the day or get away. That is Star Wars.
Not only has that been part of SW from the go, but always been an underlying theme and in your face message throughout SW. ... well before ROTJ. :wink1:
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The article - for those curious about the music.
Star Wars: Andor Theme to Have Slight Changes for Each Episode
Not only did Britell deliver a main theme, but Gilroy confirmed that the theme will have slight variations with each episode, with Season 1 confirmed to feature 12 variations of the main theme. How drastic these tweaks will be from one episode to the next is yet to be revealed, though these variations will surely result in audiences paying quite close attention to those opening sequences. Star Wars: Andor premieres on Disney+ on September 21st.

"One day, I went to Nic's house, and he played us his theme. I was like, Oh, my God! That's our theme. I called Kathy Kennedy [to say], 'We have a theme,'" Gilroy recalled in the series' production notes. "None of the opening sequences are the same, and each variation is a different orchestration, a completely different interpretation of our theme that Nic has done. There'll be twelve of them in the show. I'm sure people will parse them and figure them out, what he's done. I think they're just absolutely beautiful."

Despite featuring some familiar characters, Gilroy pointed out that there are a number of elements about Andor that aim to entirely reinvent the galaxy far, far away, which also includes musical components and expectations.

"Music in Star Wars is just absolutely essentially identified with John Williams -- I mean, bow down-but we're going in a whole other direction. We needed an entirely new vocabulary. We're making a new visual vocabulary, a storytelling vocabulary; a new casting vocabulary, all these things. We're going to make a new musical vocabulary," the showrunner explained. "Nic Britell was not only available but interested. Nic is just one of the premiere composers of the moment right now. He's just on fire, and he's inspired."
Not sure if this means the "opening sequences" will have as well as music variation, also have visual variations as the show moves forward with the characters? Curious to hear and see what they did.
"None of the opening sequences are the same, and each variation is a different orchestration, a completely different interpretation of our theme that Nic has done. There'll be twelve of them in the show.
 
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Stormtroopers were cooler and more threatening in the OT. Bad shots? Sure. But they looked cool and did some evil ****.

Obi Wan had a lack of respect for their intelligence (weak mind). But they were shown to do their job far better then what we have gotten to see in D+

Having said that. Dumb ineffective Stormtroopers don’t really bug me. Dumb D+ tv shows do.
 
It's a common misconception that Stormtroopers were bad shots. In Star Wars they were told to let Luke and the gang leave the Death Star so they could track them to Yavin.

In Empire they annihilated the rebels, and in Return they were crushing the rebellion, and if it wasn't for the small furry menace of the indigenous population of Endor they would have won.

Disney displays Stormtroopers as complete imbeciles, even in The Mandalorian, which I love. Which is a huge mistake. You need your antagonists to be a threat, not the Keystone Cops!

After the disaster that was Obi-Wan I'm not holding out too much for Andor, but I very much hope to be proved wrong.
 
Yeah I don't see Gilroy doing the slapstick Troopers.
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andor-11.10.19-AM.jpeg

“She is a true, true believer,” Tony Gilroy says. “She is a really hardcore advocate for the ISB; she is relentless. She is inspired. She has deep insights into what the rebellion might be thinking and what they might be doing next, anticipating their behaviors.” For Toby Haynes: “The ISB are the worst of the worst. They’ve got their spies everywhere, and they’re listening to everybody and putting all the pieces together.
Dedra is .... ruthless, she’s fiercely intelligent and she’s uncompromising.”
....“She will do anything for the cause and so much of the time, she’s looking around feeling like a lot of her colleagues are very mediocre….For me, although she’s on the side of the villains, she’s also evangelical in her belief in the Empire, and, in common with all great villains, she has this absolute belief that what she’s doing is right, no matter what she does—and she does some seriously

Not hating, but the description of Dedra kinda makes her seem like great value Krennic. :unsure:
I was hoping that Orson Krennic/Ben Mendelsohn would be in this, was it ever confirmed either way?
(Denise Gough) Dedra Meero might be a sub,
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Although there is also this guy played by Anton Lesser, might be the one more analogues to Krennic.
Should still be interesting, as there appears to be both (phase 2?)Clone troopers and Regular troopers
so likely a flash back to when Andor was six, and with the timeline jump, we'll likely see different Imps. in charge.
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New creature.
SW definitely needed more dinosaur(ish) inspired aliens, this guy looks great! :wink1:
Although some of that set panel "tech" looks like it was painted for an old Sid & Marty Krofft show. What am I looking at? :lol

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New creature.
SW definitely needed more dinosaur(ish) inspired aliens, this guy looks great! :wink1:
Although some of that set panel "tech" looks like it was painted for an old Sid and Marty Krofft show. What am I looking at? :lol

That Alien looks a little too sequel trilogy-ish for me. What's wrong with using established races like Rodians, Chagrians, Ithorians, etc?

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Chagrian.jpg


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Oh yes I forgot, new species means new merchandise.

No biggie though!
 
They can't win. :lol

I wouldn't say using established races is fan service? I'm not saying that they need to use a character such as Greedo/Mas Amedda/Momaw Nadon etc. specifically (THAT is fan service). What's the point of having an established world if you don't utilise it? If you keep adding new species it actually has the opposite effect and makes things feel smaller, because they just become a one and done deal for one show/movie and there is no feeling of an actual galaxy-wide presence for these races.

This is one of many flaws with the Sequel Trilogy. It doesn't feel like it's a part of the same galaxy or universe as Episode I-VI/The Clone Wars/Rebels/The Mandalorian etc. Just an homage to it, with "look TIE Fighters".
 
As per the forum's rules you'll have to ignore any political discussion surrounding the series.


E. Controversial Topics (Religion and Politics). Because they are so detrimental to the cohesion of any community, we do not allow the discussion of political/religious views, religious/political figures, or social issues that will inevitably draw members into a heated debate (e.g Evolution/Creationism or the politics behind gun control, abortion, etc). It is unrealistic to believe that a religious or political viewpoint won’t work its way onto the site in some fashion (e.g mentioning you will pray for a sick member). It is important to remember that the purpose of this policy is not to limit your ability to express your beliefs but to limit the division often caused by discussing/debating differing points of view regarding these subjects.
 

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9 min, not allot out of 12 episodes, on the other hand I don't want many more spoilers.
 
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