1/6 MMS216 - Man of Steel: General Zod Collectible Figure

[fatmarco]

I have many problems with MoS but Jor-El beating Zod is probably at the top. I can accept Superman giving Zod a hard time because of his time on Earth and decades of absorbing sunlight I would think made him stronger than Zod but the Jor-El scene I felt didn't make any sense from the explanation of roles on Krypton and just plain fighting experience Zod would have had over Jor-El. I get that fights are chaotic and anything can happen but stick a BJJ expert in a fight with a non fighter and the BJJ guy wins 9/10 times. Maybe it was Crowe that demanded Jor-El look like a badass IDK but it gave me a bad opening impression of the film.

I like to think that Jor-El's power suit was better than Zods given that Jor-El was a scientist lol. That's my explanation for now.

 

[fatmarco]

Jor-El I can see, but I felt he laid his fair share of punishment on Superman. In fact, despite Zod being trained in combat, I thought Superman should have actually had more of the advantage on him because he should have had a better grasp on what abilities he has at that point and how to somewhat use them, at least more than what Zod would have. It seemed like Zod instantly knew how to use his new found powers almost flawlessly, while it took Superman 33 years (and was still trying to grow accustomed to them during the fight). Superman told him the secret on how to control his senses but nothing else, yet he seemed to know how to use nearly everything else.

Also, not sure if Superman being a natural born Kryptonian as opposed to Zod merely being genetically engineered would potentially have an effect on how much power each one has, in terms of how their cells absorb and store the sun's radiation. It was never directly said, but it seems like it may have been implied.

Yea, it can be explained Superman probably being more powerful, but the issue is is that it's not interesting having a more powerful protagonist than the antagonist. It's always better to create a genuine fear of the main character losing (even if we know he won't).

 

[Tourist]

I have many problems with MoS but Jor-El beating Zod is probably at the top. I can accept Superman giving Zod a hard time because of his time on Earth and decades of absorbing sunlight I would think made him stronger than Zod but the Jor-El scene I felt didn't make any sense from the explanation of roles on Krypton and just plain fighting experience Zod would have had over Jor-El. I get that fights are chaotic and anything can happen but stick a BJJ expert in a fight with a non fighter and the BJJ guy wins 9/10 times. Maybe it was Crowe that demanded Jor-El look like a badass IDK but it gave me a bad opening impression of the film.

One can be a scientist and a fighter and generals aren't necessarily hand to hand combat experts.
The early scenes establish Jor-El as a physical guy.
More importantly, people fighting to protect their kids can do extraordinary things.

 

[Bjjer]

One can be a scientist and a fighter and generals aren't necessarily hand to hand combat experts.
The early scenes establish Jor-El as a physical guy.
More importantly, people fighting to protect their kids can do extraordinary things.

not necessarily Zod being a hand to hand expert(which I expect Zod to be as a bred warrior) but just the dynamics and adrenaline dump in a fight I think would give Zod the edge from just experience. How many times would JorEl have had a chance to fight to acclimate himself to fighting dynamics being bred as a scientist. I know anything can happen it just didnt sit well with my going by the movies own canon of kryptonians being bred for roles.

 

[Azrael23]

not necessarily Zod being a hand to hand expert(which I expect Zod to be as a bred warrior) but just the dynamics and adrenaline dump in a fight I think would give Zod the edge from just experience. How many times would JorEl have had a chance to fight to acclimate himself to fighting dynamics being bred as a scientist. I know anything can happen it just didnt sit well with my going by the movies own canon of kryptonians being bred for roles.

Its also quite possible that Jor'El taught himself or learned combat despite his assigned role of being bred
as a scientist. This would certainly coincide with his staunch ideology regarding Kal'El not being predetermined
for any particular role and that both him and Lara made it a point to have Kal naturally. Thus its entirely plausible
that such an unorthodox thinker such as Jor'El would make it his aim to possibly learn and embrace many facets pertaining
to the Kryptonian culture including physical combat, its also a reason why Zod would be caught off guard. That's the way
I see it, granted it would have been nice for the film to be able to explore this, but it had minimal time to do so.

 

[Bjjer]

Its also quite possible that Jor'El taught himself or learned combat despite his assigned role of being bred
as a scientist. This would certainly coincide with his staunch ideology regarding Kal'El not being predetermined
for any particular role and that both him and Lara made it a point to have Kal naturally. Thus its entirely plausible
that such an unorthodox thinker such as Jor'El would make it his aim to possibly learn and embrace many facets pertaining
to the Kryptonian culture including physical combat, its also a reason why Zod would be caught off guard. That's the way
I see it, granted it would have been nice for the film to be able to explore this, but it had minimal time to do so.

I guess its possible. Jorel also could have been doing steroids and training Brazillian Top Team jiu-jitsu and Zod could have skipped H2H during his many years of training to fulfill his predetermined kryptonian role. IMO it was just as dumb as Costner dying in the tornado. There are parts of the movie I found ok but generally I've accepted that I don't really like it. To me the DC Universe starts with BvS.

 

[Azrael23]

 

[Tourist]

not necessarily Zod being a hand to hand expert(which I expect Zod to be as a bred warrior) but just the dynamics and adrenaline dump in a fight I think would give Zod the edge from just experience. How many times would JorEl have had a chance to fight to acclimate himself to fighting dynamics being bred as a scientist. I know anything can happen it just didnt sit well with my going by the movies own canon of kryptonians being bred for roles.

I think there's a reason the Kryptonian suits of armor are somewhat reminiscent of 15th or 16th century European armors.
When I watched the movie I assumed that Jor-El had been raised as a renaissance nobleman and combat was a part of it.

 

[olbertfrog]

Well everything has to be badass with Snyder so even scientists can kick ass.
Would have made more sense if there was no fight and Zod killed him in cold blood after watching the pod escape.
But yeah jor el is presented a phisical guy early on, so he probably tought himself to fight.
As for the tornado, im not a fan of the exécution but the idea make sense with the approach of the character in both movies.
The Fear of What could happen once the world knew about him, acceptation or not.
Pa put that fear, those responsabilities at a very young age in him, so he just froze.
I would have not killed Pa, smallville folks basically know that Clark has habilities since his teen years and they protect him in a way.
So just have him saving Pa and give the characters another dynamic.

 

[jedijim3002]

To breed a truly superior race of people for an entire planet you would want everyone to be physically fit whether they were a scientist, garbage collector, or a warrior makes no difference. You would want them to not be scrawny or sickly because that would be breeding weakness. You wouldn't want your scientists dying off from being sick or weak so you breed only the strongest and most brilliant. Every one of these Kryptonians were superior genetically in every way, mind and body.

I'm just assuming here because it was never discussed in the movie but to see Jor-El kick ass like that leads me to believe that the Kryptonians kept their people physically fit. I can't imagine they'd let anybody get fat or lazy otherwise they would just breed those genetics out of their society. If you still breed warriors you are still a waring race and not necessarily a completely peaceful one.

To defend your planet you'd want everyone to be able to fight not just the master tacticians and warriors. Every Kryptonian must be able to defend his or her home. Like the Spartans from 300, ONLY Spartan women give birth to real men! LOL

Well maybe that's not a good example cause they don't give birth but hopefully my point gets across.

I think it's only our planet and our culture that perceives smart people to be skinny and weak because they have developed their minds rather than bodies. Why do we think that a scientist can't be strong and kick ass?

 

[fatmarco]

I think it's only our planet and our culture that perceives smart people to be skinny and weak because they have developed their minds rather than bodies. Why do we think that a scientist can't be strong and kick ass?

Because regardless of how you were born, how you live affects your physical state. A Scientist wouldn't be engaging in physical activities, especially one working hard to save their planet. General Zod was bred to be a warrior, so he should have been stronger regardless.

It's the same issue with The Force Awakens. Kylo Ren is the leader of a group of Dark Jedi known as the Knights of Ren, but was beaten by someone who was just learning to use the force and the lightsaber midfight? It destroys the gravitas that Kylo has and all the knights of Ren had and all the fear that came with them is now gone completely. We're not exactly going too ooh and aah when the knights get revealed knowing they're all weaker than the guy who was weaker than the protagonist who had barely started her journey.

It's not fun having the protagonists be stronger/better than the antagonists at the very start of a story. All it does is makes the eventual overcoming of them lose all its weight. If Obi Wan smacked around Vader in ANH and only lose by being shot from behind, we wouldn't have felt that fear for Luke or anyone elses safety in the sequels, because we'd subconsciously know he's not all that.

(as a sidenote, the entire destruction of Krypton story they went with made zero sense. The best explanation for the destruction of Krypton is from the Animated Series)

 

[jedijim3002]

Because regardless of how you were born, how you live affects your physical state. A Scientist wouldn't be engaging in physical activities, especially one working hard to save their planet.
General Zod was bred to be a warrior, so he should have been stronger regardless.

Why not? Strong body strong mind right? He wouldn't be spending every moment on trying to saving the planet because he knew it was doomed anyway. He said the planet and everyone on it was dead already. How long did he know that the planet couldn't be saved? Probably a while maybe a few years so he would have been prepared. If he and his wife discussed going against their traditions, their society to give birth to a child, a smart couple would have planned for every contingency.

They would have to have time to build the ship that brought Kal to earth. They would have needed enough time to sort through thousands of worlds that would be suitable for their unborn son to survive and that's no small task. Jor most likely got into shape and practiced to fight off anyone. I'm sure a smart man knowing the end of his world is eminent would know that there would be some crazy stuff happening at the end. People would panic and riot and steal and kill so he would be prepared for that. He'd get himself physically fit to protect himself and his wife and the pod.

Of course we can debate what should have happened or what was supposed to happen until we are blue in the face because none of this was explained on screen. We the audience have to fill in the gaps if need be. But that's just my imagination talking.

The Star Wars references is whole other can of worms. LOL

 

[Azrael23]

Because regardless of how you were born, how you live affects your physical state. A Scientist wouldn't be engaging in physical activities, especially one working hard to save their planet. General Zod was bred to be a warrior, so he should have been stronger regardless.

Not necessarily. We know next to nothing regardinghow kryptonians differ in correlation to to ascribed roles within the society.
You assume that Kryptonian warriors may biologically differ from Kryptonian scientist when it may simply just be a matter of training
and not genetics. I simply believe that some are simply assigned their roles but all were equally capable and had to potential to fulfill
multiple roles. Thus Jor'El can just as easily be as physically capable and strong as Zod and others within the warrior's guild.

(as a sidenote, the entire destruction of Krypton story they went with made zero sense. The best explanation for the destruction of Krypton is from the Animated Series)

I do somewhat agree with this sentiment. In fact I believe they should have made a similar narrative for MOS which would have
allowed them to utilize Brainiac for the very first film and brought it full circle utilizing Zod in a possible MOS 3. Much how I thought
that Metallo should have been utilized in BvS as oppose to Doomsday.

 

[fatmarco]

Not necessarily. We know next to nothing regardinghow kryptonians differ in correlation to to ascribed roles within the society.
You assume that Kryptonian warriors may biologically differ from Kryptonian scientist when it may simply just be a matter of training
and not genetics. I simply believe that some are simply assigned their roles but all were equally capable and had to potential to fulfill
multiple roles. Thus Jor'El can just as easily be as physically capable and strong as Zod and others within the warrior's guild.

I think the whole "bred to be a warrior" line implies that they were genetically designed for their roles rather than there being a generic all purpose Kryptonian that was then assigned roles. That's the entire point of them sending Superman away. The Kryptonians were all designed, bred for specific purposes. Since Superman carried the entire Kryptonian genome he had freedom of choice to become his own man. Jor-El says "Every child was designed to fufill a predetermined role in our society, as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on..." Which, yeah, confirms that they were all at a genetic level bred differently.

 

[SilverStar17]

One can be a scientist and a fighter and generals aren't necessarily hand to hand combat experts.
The early scenes establish Jor-El as a physical guy.
More importantly, people fighting to protect their kids can do extraordinary things.

Its also quite possible that Jor'El taught himself or learned combat despite his assigned role of being bred
as a scientist. This would certainly coincide with his staunch ideology regarding Kal'El not being predetermined
for any particular role and that both him and Lara made it a point to have Kal naturally. Thus its entirely plausible
that such an unorthodox thinker such as Jor'El would make it his aim to possibly learn and embrace many facets pertaining
to the Kryptonian culture including physical combat, its also a reason why Zod would be caught off guard. That's the way
I see it, granted it would have been nice for the film to be able to explore this, but it had minimal time to do so.

I think there's a reason the Kryptonian suits of armor are somewhat reminiscent of 15th or 16th century European armors.
When I watched the movie I assumed that Jor-El had been raised as a renaissance nobleman and combat was a part of it.

To breed a truly superior race of people for an entire planet you would want everyone to be physically fit whether they were a scientist, garbage collector, or a warrior makes no difference. You would want them to not be scrawny or sickly because that would be breeding weakness. You wouldn't want your scientists dying off from being sick or weak so you breed only the strongest and most brilliant. Every one of these Kryptonians were superior genetically in every way, mind and body.

I'm just assuming here because it was never discussed in the movie but to see Jor-El kick ass like that leads me to believe that the Kryptonians kept their people physically fit. I can't imagine they'd let anybody get fat or lazy otherwise they would just breed those genetics out of their society. If you still breed warriors you are still a waring race and not necessarily a completely peaceful one.

To defend your planet you'd want everyone to be able to fight not just the master tacticians and warriors. Every Kryptonian must be able to defend his or her home. Like the Spartans from 300, ONLY Spartan women give birth to real men! LOL

Well maybe that's not a good example cause they don't give birth but hopefully my point gets across.

I think it's only our planet and our culture that perceives smart people to be skinny and weak because they have developed their minds rather than bodies. Why do we think that a scientist can't be strong and kick ass?

All valid reasons that are plausible.

Not everything needs to be spelled out so to speak and explained in detail. Sometimes, I do believe films intend for the audience to fill in the gaps themselves based on clues laid in the film.

 

[Azrael23]

I think the whole "bred to be a warrior" line implies that they were genetically designed for their roles rather than there being a generic all purpose Kryptonian that was then assigned roles. That's the entire point of them sending Superman away. The Kryptonians were all designed, bred for specific purposes. Since Superman carried the entire Kryptonian genome he had freedom of choice to become his own man. Jor-El says "Every child was designed to fufill a predetermined role in our society, as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on..." Which, yeah, confirms that they were all at a genetic level bred differently.

In addition to being bred, Zod also notes that he has trained, thus we can also infer that physical prowess
and combative capabilities isn't intrinsic in those bred as warriors. Being genetically ordained wouldn't intrinsically
make one the better fighter either, although it may provide one a slight edge. However since these aspects aren't
expounded on, its purely conjecture. I wouldn't rule out genetic manipulation since its obvious when you consider that Nam'Ek was twice the size of his peers, but even genetic assignment and a predetermined role doesn't inherently negate
the potential for one to encompass or undertake other roles that weren't predetermined for them. Again, given Jor'El's staunch philosophy regarding predetermination, it wouldn't surprise me if he undertook ideals and disciplines that went
beyond his role as simply a scientist.

 

[Bjjer]

But wouldn't the training Zod undertook for his role be superior to any training Jorel might have had access to? Jorel might have attempted to train himself but its no substitute for actual "formal" training. SHadow boxing from dvds is no substitute to training with a coach, pressure training is superior to individual "katas" unless jorel was rolling with the liquid thing. As others have pointed out its all conjecture since we werent told it just always bothered me... probably more than it should have. When people were complaining about the neck snap i was questioning how jorel beat Zod LOL

 

[Azrael23]

But wouldn't the training Zod undertook for his role be superior to any training Jorel might have had access to? Jorel might have attempted to train himself but its no substitute for actual "formal" training. SHadow boxing from dvds is no substitute to training with a coach, pressure training is superior to individual "katas" unless jorel was rolling with the liquid thing. As others have pointed out its all conjecture since we werent told it just always bothered me... probably more than it should have. When people were complaining about the neck snap i was questioning how jorel beat Zod LOL

Jor'El was Krypton's foremost scientist and thinker. I believe it stands to reason that he would/could gain just as much access to
Kryptonian knowledge and possible training if he so desired. Its not truly that much of a stretch when you think about it. He above
all would be privy to vast knowledge that Kryptonians would have accumulated over time which includes other alien races regarding
fighting disciplines and strategies, many of which could be foreign to Zod's standard training. While this may be
conjecture, it would align with what we know regarding Jor'El and his knowledge of other worlds.

 

[Bjjer]

Jor'El was Krypton's foremost scientist and thinker. I believe it stands to reason that he would/could gain just as much access to
Kryptonian knowledge and possible training if he so desired. Its not truly that much of a stretch when you think about it. He above
all would be privy to vast knowledge that Kryptonians would have accumulated over time which includes other alien races regarding
fighting disciplines and strategies, many of which could be foreign to Zod's standard training. While this may be
conjecture, it would align with what we know regarding Jor'El and his knowledge of other worlds.

So Jorel would have access to training not giving to their bred warriors? Wouldn't the Kryptonians incorporate those methods into their curriculum? The Romans did and they existed 2000+ years ago I would think a future space race would do the same? Also Krypton seemed pretty strict about the roles which is why I would think Jorel would have to be secretive about it which leads to inferior training methods, especially if training solo or only with the wife.

 

[Azrael23]

So Jorel would have access to training not giving to their bred warriors?

I explicitly stated that he would have just as much access to the training curriculum of those within the warrior guild.

Wouldn't the Kryptonians incorporate those methods into their curriculum?

Methods of other alien races? possibly or possibly not, again the film doesn't expound on it.
Depends on how Kryptonians viewed other races. Jor'El was clearly a more progressive thinker
than his contemporaries. His thinking seems to be more aligned with the earlier generations
that explored the galaxy and prior to them assigning roles within their society. Perhaps Kryptonians
of Jor'El and Zod's time believed themselves to be superior to other alien race and cultures.

The Romans did and they existed 2000+ years ago I would think a future space race would do the same?

Are you seriously asking why a fictional race of aliens wouldn't do what the Romans did?

Also Krypton seemed pretty strict about the roles which is why I would think Jorel would have to be secretive about it which leads to inferior training methods, especially if training solo or only with the wife.

Self taught doesn't inherently lend itself to being inferior. He could possibly implemented various other forms
that were beyond the familiarity of those within the Kryptonian warrior's guild. Methods that could grant an
edge or advantage in combat. There's all sorts of possibilities.