Best live-action Batman movie?

[user 72759]

Worst Alfred: Gollum (plus, he gets himself blown up)

Whatever, he’s not his real dad

 

[Wor-Gar]

Who's everyone's Most Ideal Bruce Wayne...?

 

[Mondragon]

 

[Prime Clone]

Who's everyone's Most Ideal Bruce Wayne...?

I go for Battfleck on both counts - but he needs to do something about that telltale mole on his cheek.

 

[T8OO]

Batman was a “phase” in that he knew he couldn’t do it forever and TDK’s Batman is the only one on screen who had a clear mission with a plan to achieve it. He wasn’t fighting criminals for vengeance he wanted to create lasting change that would eventually be handed over to a legitimate authority like Dent.

He was making Rachel his hope for a normal life after Gotham no longer needed Batman, not because he had given up the mantle, but because it would no longer be necessary.

I personally feel like The Batman is a pretty poor Batman film. I watched it at a DC In Concert event and I left the first half at intermission right after the Batmobile chase thinking, “I misjudged this movie, it slaps”.

Then after intermission I got to watch people say “El rata alada” 2740 times, two different 10+ minute long scenes of riddler exposition dumping, Batman never outsmarting the villain once in 3 hours, and a climax that felt completely disconnected from the rest of the film.

Who’s idea was it to have riddler do a giant monologue to Batman in Arkham, then have Batman go to Riddler’s apartment where we get to watch Batman watch a giant monologue from Riddler on a laptop? All within like 30 minutes.

The whole second half needed a rewrite and there were so many obvious narrative choices they missed that it’s unforgivable IMO.

If The Batman was going to be good through and through Batman needed to solve one riddle in time to make a difference. If he figured out what “bring him into the light” meant, saved Falcone (narratively rhyming with Thomas saving him previously), and grappled up to apprehend Riddler just in time to unravel his plan with the sea wall, then you would have had an exciting third act setup directly by Batman’s actions.

Instead we get a side character saying “carpet tucker” being the clue Batman needed to find something that should have been pretty obvious, and a TikTok explaining exactly what Batman needed to know just in time.

I think The Batman is still my fourth favorite Batman movie but IMO it’s all tone and zero substance.

I saw The Batman opening weekend in IMAX. On my first watch, I thought it was far from perfect but good enough. It had a great feel and the sound design was absolutely superb.

2nd watch didn't go as well. Normally my 2nd watch of a movie is better, but not this time. I was so bored, I watched it in 3 sittings.
So many things jumped out at me that didn't sit right that I didn't notice the first time.
Batman leaves Selina during a gunfight to go and rev his car. Like revving a loud engine would do anything in a gunfight.
Batman tells Gordon "no guns" as they enter possible hostile territory. I get Batman doesn't like guns but he's asking a veteran cop of 20 years to not use his service weapon if things go wrong. It feels like a tick the box that this Batman hates guns.
Batman standing there as a time bomb ticks down and blows up in his face. He's supposed to be wet behind the ears but come on.
Batman the vigilante is unconscious in a room full of cops and they don't actually take his mask off.
Bullets seem to take him down instantly or he strides through a wall of them like RoboCop.

So many strange choices.

It appears to be what Zack Snyder has been accused of, like you say, tone and no substance and yet it's heralded as the best Batman movie put to film by a lot of people. That's great if they like it, it's not for me

 

[T8OO]

I go for Battfleck on both counts - but he needs to do something about that telltale mole on his cheek.

A very slight design change could easily sort that, couldn't it? To be fair though, Batman in Snyder's universe, up until Justice League is like an urban legend almost. The chances of someone looking at his face long enough to describe are very slim.

 

[a-dev]

I go for Battfleck on both counts - but he needs to do something about that telltale mole on his cheek.

Similar problem with Melissa Benoist Supergirl - she has a pockmark scar between her eyebrows. As if any other clue was needed that Kara Danvers and Supergirl are one and the same.

 

[Prime Clone]

 

[Prime Clone]

https://comicbook.com/dc/news/kevin-smith-reveals-seen-batman-forever-schumacher-cut/

 

[Mondragon]

.

It's 1937. Indiana Jones & Batman are in theaters, as one character called Zorro!

 

[user 72759]

Batman tells Gordon "no guns" as they enter possible hostile territory. I get Batman doesn't like guns but he's asking a veteran cop of 20 years to not use his service weapon if things go wrong. It feels like a tick the box that this Batman hates guns.

I’ve been meaning to make a meme of some sort about this. I cringe every time I see that scene. It makes Batman seem like some sort of mindless automaton that just says “No guns” every time he sees a gun.

Batman doesn’t use guns because he knows he is working outside the law and killing would make him just like the person who killed his parents. He accepts he is a criminal but won’t be a murderer.

Like you say, Gordon is working within the confines of the law. He’s acting as a member of government controlled and accountable (in a perfect world) law enforcement.

It just makes no sense for Batman to say that to Gordon and makes him seem really dumb.

It appears to be what Zack Snyder has been accused of, like you say, tone and no substance and yet it's heralded as the best Batman movie put to film by a lot of people. That's great if they like it, it's not for me

For me at least, I think Snyder’s work in the DCEU is more guilty because his work will casually show “heroes” being okay with excessive collateral damage or outright 1st degree murder then in the next scene try to imply they’re godlike and should be worshipped. He plays them off as heroes despite seeming to not understand the consequences or morality of their actions.

The Batman isn’t guilty of anything like that. I think its protagonist is a hero, just a pretty boring one who doesn’t accomplish much. It FEELS like a detective movie but when you stop to think about it, Batman never really detects anything Riddler didn’t want him to and he’s basically along for the ride the whole time. I think any other version of Batman would have figured out at least one thing Riddler didn’t want him to.

 

[T8OO]

I’ve been meaning to make a meme of some sort about this. I cringe every time I see that scene. It makes Batman seem like some sort of mindless automaton that just says “No guns” every time he sees a gun.

Batman doesn’t use guns because he knows he is working outside the law and killing would make him just like the person who killed his parents. He accepts he is a criminal but won’t be a murderer.

Like you say, Gordon is working within the confines of the law. He’s acting as a member of government controlled and accountable (in a perfect world) law enforcement.

It just makes no sense for Batman to say that to Gordon and makes him seem really dumb.

It's like the comment is more important than whether or not it should be said.

For me at least, I think Snyder’s work in the DCEU is more guilty because his work will casually show “heroes” being okay with excessive collateral damage or outright 1st degree murder then in the next scene try to imply they’re godlike and should be worshipped. He plays them off as heroes despite seeming to not understand the consequences or morality of their actions.

The Batman isn’t guilty of anything like that. I think its protagonist is a hero, just a pretty boring one who doesn’t accomplish much. It FEELS like a detective movie but when you stop to think about it, Batman never really detects anything Riddler didn’t want him to and he’s basically along for the ride the whole time. I think any other version of Batman would have figured out at least one thing Riddler didn’t want him to.

Can you give examples? Granted there is Batman in BvS but he is the antagonist so that's kinda the point. He's lost his way and justifies what he does because he's saving the world from Superman. He's also not godlike at all.
In regards to what you class as murder, surely that doesn't change that they literally are godlike and Gods are worshipped whether they want to be or not.

 

[user 72759]

Can you give examples? Granted there is Batman in BvS but he is the antagonist so that's kinda the point. He's lost his way and justifies what he does because he's saving the world from Superman. He's also not godlike at all.
In regards to what you class as murder, surely that doesn't change that they literally are godlike and Gods are worshipped whether they want to be or not.

Batman in BVS is the main one. Specifically the fact that he 1. Has a 1st degree murder plot against Superman 2. Commits a felony attempted robbery of Kryptonite 3. Kills multiple people in the attempt to steal said Kryptonite

All of the deaths in that scene would be considered 1st degree murder anywhere in the US.

Snyder is on record saying his Batman wouldn’t really care if he shoots a car and it blows up and that kills someone because in his Batman’s mind that’s him blowing up the car, not killing, “I tried to do it by proxy. Shoot the car they’re in, the car blows up or the grenade would go off in the guy’s hand, or when he shoots the tank and the guy pretty much lights the tank [himself]. I perceive it as him not killing directly, but if the bad guys are associated with a thing that happens to blow up, he would say that that’s not really my problem.”

I’m sorry Snyder, but if you intend to blow up a car with people in it, you intend to kill.

In my opinion actions like the ones Batman takes in BvS make him irredeemable and as bad as any other random criminal in Gotham. So anything that follows that tries to paint that same character as heroic is either ignorant of exactly what he did or trying to sweep it under the rug.

 

[T8OO]

Batman in BVS is the main one. Specifically the fact that he 1. Has a 1st degree murder plot against Superman 2. Commits a felony attempted robbery of Kryptonite 3. Kills multiple people in the attempt to steal said Kryptonite

All of the deaths in that scene would be considered 1st degree murder anywhere in the US.

Snyder is on record saying his Batman wouldn’t really care if he shoots a car and it blows up and that kills someone because in his Batman’s mind that’s him blowing up the car, not killing, “I tried to do it by proxy. Shoot the car they’re in, the car blows up or the grenade would go off in the guy’s hand, or when he shoots the tank and the guy pretty much lights the tank [himself]. I perceive it as him not killing directly, but if the bad guys are associated with a thing that happens to blow up, he would say that that’s not really my problem.”

I’m sorry Snyder, but if you intend to blow up a car with people in it, you intend to kill.

In my opinion actions like the ones Batman takes in BvS make him irredeemable and as bad as any other random criminal in Gotham. So anything that follows that tries to paint that same character as heroic is either ignorant of exactly what he did or trying to sweep it under the rug.

Kryptonite isn't allowed on U.S. soil as the import licence was denied. It's one criminal stealing illegal goods from a bunch of criminals.

For me, all this comes under the umbrella that he is a fallen Batman in need of redemption. It's the whole point of his arc in that movie. He fears the alien that much he going to rationalize it to himself using the guise he's saving the world. He is wrong. Every car he blows up, every bit of collateral damage can be justified for the greater goal in his mind.

Do you believe saving Martha, putting the league together and then saving the world doesn't redeem him?

 

[Wor-Gar]

Batman should be able to kill without judgment.

But he should also always be hunted by the police. He can leave clues to help them once he solves them. But he shouldn't be at a crime scene in full regalia surrounded by cops. Just looks silly.

Secret alliance with Gordon, fine. Some people are just no damn good.

 

[user 72759]

Kryptonite isn't allowed on U.S. soil as the import licence was denied. It's one criminal stealing illegal goods from a bunch of criminals.

If a gangbanger kills rivals to still steal their coke they’re still a murderer. The Kryptonite being legal or not doesn’t make Batman any less culpable.

Do you believe saving Martha, putting the league together and then saving the world doesn't redeem him?

I don’t believe there was a complex redemption arc as it relates to killing humans. Batman only seemed to think he was wrong for trying to kill Superman and only because 1. Martha and 2. He watched Superman save people from the cave troll. This makes no sense because he saw Superman saving people from Zod but used that to determine he was a threat.

He then kills more people right after the Martha scene when he blows up a couple product placement dodge rams and squishes some people’s heads with crates.

The context of the film alone is enough but when you add in Snyder’s cavalier comments it’s obvious we weren’t supposed to think anything of his killing humans and his “redemption” was about regretting trying to kill Superman.

Even if I thought his actions in later movies redeemed him (I don’t) it wouldn’t change that his knee jerk response to Superman is “KILL, KILL, KILL”. The Batman I know from comics and other movies wouldn’t react in that way, let alone the killing random thugs. There’s really no precedent for it in any mainline or well known version of the character. It’s so out of character that I personally can’t even see the character as Batman.

IMO you can’t just wave that away and say it was a mistake and he’s changed. It’s a character who made choices I fundamentally disagree with so much that I can’t look past it.

It’s really frustrating too because the blueprint was there in TDKReturns. Have you think his goal is killing Superman without him saying it, have Alfred be concerned, have him not kill random people who get in his way, instead of “Martha” the twist is you think Batman is out for blood then at the last minute he spares Superman to say “I want you to remember, Clark, in all the years to come, in your most private moments… I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you!”

IMO Batman would always see that Clark is a net positive for earth but want him to know his power is not unchecked.

 

[Wor-Gar]

IMO Batman would always see that Clark is a net positive for earth but want him to know his power is not unchecked.

I do like that idea better.


Although, I have a real problem believing that Batman could beat Superman in a fight. Especially the way Snyder presented it.

 

[T8OO]

If a gangbanger kills rivals to still steal their coke they’re still a murderer. The Kryptonite being legal or not doesn’t make Batman any less culpable.

You mentioned it was an attempted robbery. It's a strange one to bring up as everything Batman does is against the law being a vigilante.

I don’t believe there was a complex redemption arc as it relates to killing humans. Batman only seemed to think he was wrong for trying to kill Superman and only because 1. Martha and 2. He watched Superman save people from the cave troll. This makes no sense because he saw Superman saving people from Zod but used that to determine he was a threat.

I don't see it that way. He even says “Men are still good, we fight, we kill, we betray one another, but we can rebuild we can do better, we will. We have to” What from that makes you think it was just about Superman?

He didn't see him save people from Zod, he watched as they both destroyed the city, a friend died, he saw an employee crushed in pain, and then consoled an orphan girl who had just lost her mother. The mantle of Batman is about power. Becoming Batman helped him subdue the trauma of his parent's death by never being that powerless again. The beautiful lie. Superman comes along and his 20 years of being Batman now mean nothing. He is powerless against the alien and he needs to restore that power. He rationalizes this by telling Alfred Superman is a threat.

He then kills more people right after the Martha scene when he blows up a couple product placement dodge rams and squishes some people’s heads with crates.

With the cave troll comment and then the product placement comment it's obvious this is going nowhere.

The context of the film alone is enough but when you add in Snyder’s cavalier comments it’s obvious we weren’t supposed to think anything of his killing humans and his “redemption” was about regretting trying to kill Superman.

Even if I thought his actions in later movies redeemed him (I don’t) it wouldn’t change that his knee jerk response to Superman is “KILL, KILL, KILL”. The Batman I know from comics and other movies wouldn’t react in that way, let alone the killing random thugs. There’s really no precedent for it in any mainline or well known version of the character. It’s so out of character that I personally can’t even see the character as Batman.

IMO you can’t just wave that away and say it was a mistake and he’s changed. It’s a character who made choices I fundamentally disagree with so much that I can’t look past it.

It’s really frustrating too because the blueprint was there in TDKReturns. Have you think his goal is killing Superman without him saying it, have Alfred be concerned, have him not kill random people who get in his way, instead of “Martha” the twist is you think Batman is out for blood then at the last minute he spares Superman to say “I want you to remember, Clark, in all the years to come, in your most private moments… I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you!”

IMO Batman would always see that Clark is a net positive for earth but want him to know his power is not unchecked.

 

[T8OO]

I do like that idea better.


Although, I have a real problem believing that Batman could beat Superman in a fight. Especially the way Snyder presented it.

Why is that?

 

[Wor-Gar]

Why is that?

If Batman's iron mask really cracked off like that from Supes punch, so would his gelatin face.