Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[Khev]

People never hated Anakin like they do Rey.

ST haters really do have selective memory when it comes to this stuff. Jake Lloyd's life was ruined over the deafening fan backlash. Ahmed Best almost turned to suicide, and Hayden was considered an absolute joke whose career fared worse than Ridley's has post-SW. What made it worse for PT Anakin was that he was tainting one of the most beloved characters in the history of cinema compared to Rey who's just a clean slate and easily compartmentalized away if you don't like her.

Plus, the kids that loved the PT (and TCW) and loved Anakin, grew up and still love the PT and still love Anakin. No kids love the ST.

Well that's factually untrue.

And it doesn't change the fact that adult fans who hated the PT 20 years ago all "knew for a fact" that "there's no way that current kids will grow up loving the PT like we loved the OT" and yet here we are.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

ST haters really do have selective memory when it comes to this stuff. Jake Lloyd's life was ruined over the deafening fan backlash. Ahmed Best almost turned to suicide, and Hayden was considered an absolute joke whose career fared worse than Ridley's has post-SW. What made it worse for PT Anakin was that he was tainting one of the most beloved characters in the history of cinema compared to Rey who's just a clean slate and easily compartmentalized away if you don't like her.


Well that's factually untrue.

And it doesn't change the fact that adult fans who hated the PT 20 years ago all "knew for a fact" that "there's no way that current kids will grow up loving the PT like we loved the OT" and yet here we are.

I had Hayden's Anakin in mind, but yes, Jake was apparently horribly bullied by other kids at his school. People definitely hate Rey more than Hayden's Anakin.
Ahmed got crap from everywhere. But we were talking about Anakin.

Horrible toy sales of the ST figures shows that kids don't care about the ST.
Taking my kids to school and birthday parties for years now, I've never seen a single ST themed Star Wars backpack. I've seen a Mandalorian one once but never anything ST. Hundreds and hundreds of MCU backpacks. 1 Star Wars.
I must have seen thousands of kids backpacks over the years. It's all superhero stuff. Virtually no Star Wars.
My kids attended so many superhero themed parties. No Star Wars parties.
Halloween; saw a kid wearing Darth Vader once. That's it. Loads of Spiderman, Ironman etc. No Kylo or Rey.

Sure, anecdotal, but that with the bad toy sales doesn't paint a very good picture if you think kids like the ST. Kids don't really care about Star Wars.
Kids 20 years ago cared about the PT but now, now they care about superhero stuff. The MCU is their Star Wars.

Look at the animated stuff. Rebels and TCW, successful. Resistance, set during the ST, a failure. The series meant for kids? Kids aren't interested in it.

If you think kids today love the ST like the kids 20 years ago loved the PT you're mad.

We'll see who's right in 20 years. I'll be in my 60's in 20 years though, so I certainly won't still be watching Star Wars and keeping up with the fandom, so I suppose I'll never know either way.

 

[Khev]

I had Hayden's Anakin in mind, but yes, Jake was apparently horribly bullied by other kids at his school. People definitely hate Rey more than Hayden's Anakin.
Ahmed got crap from everywhere. But we were talking about Anakin.

Horrible toy sales of the ST figures shows that kids don't care about the ST.
Taking my kids to school and birthday parties for years now, I've never seen a single ST themed Star Wars backpack. I've seen a Mandalorian one once but never anything ST. Hundreds and hundreds of MCU backpacks. 1 Star Wars.
I must have seen thousands of kids backpacks over the years. It's all superhero stuff. Virtually no Star Wars.
My kids attended so many superhero themed parties. No Star Wars parties.
Halloween; saw a kid wearing Darth Vader once. That's it. Loads of Spiderman, Ironman etc. No Kylo or Rey.

Sure, anecdotal, but that with the bad toy sales doesn't paint a very good picture if you think kids like the ST. Kids don't really care about Star Wars.
Kids 20 years ago cared about the PT but now, now they care about superhero stuff. The MCU is their Star Wars.

Look at the animated stuff. Rebels and TCW, successful. Resistance, set during the ST, a failure. The series meant for kids? Kids aren't interested in it.

If you think kids today love the ST like the kids 20 years ago loved the PT you're mad.

We'll see who's right in 20 years. I'll be in my 60's in 20 years though, so I certainly won't still be watching Star Wars and keeping up with the fandom, so I suppose I'll never know either way.

Okay that's a nice word salad but none of it changes the fact that the actual history of this franchise, not conjecture, not anecdotal assumptions, is that everybody loved the OT when it came out and still loved it 20 years later and most people bashed the PT when it came out yet it still has a fanbase 20 years later. There's no precedent for a SW trilogy, loved or hated, to not be popular decades later when the dust settles. So what you're claiming is that the 40 years of established precedent has no bearing on what we can expect from the future because the hate toward the ST is different than the hate for the PT, which was somehow proven by the Resistance cartoon sucking and Marvel being more popular.

Nah, I'm not buying it. Lots of things were more popular than the PT back in the day (Spider-Man, Harry Potter, LOTR, etc.) so not being "first" doesn't negate something from having longevity or a resurgence years later. Plus the ST had one heck of a two-year honeymoon with TFA that the PT did not enjoy thanks to the backlash hitting instantly on the arrival of TPM. As for the backlash against TLJ, kids that are new to SW don't care about Luke being a reclusive hermit who wasn't helping in the war just like we didn't care when Ben and Yoda did the same thing in the OT.

 

[jye4ever]

Okay that's a nice word salad but none of it changes the fact that the actual history of this franchise, not conjecture, not anecdotal assumptions, is that everybody loved the OT when it came out and still loved it 20 years later and most people bashed the PT when it came out yet it still has a fanbase 20 years later. There's no precedent for a SW trilogy, loved or hated, to not be popular decades later when the dust settles. So what you're claiming is that the 40 years of established precedent has no bearing on what we can expect from the future because the hate toward the ST is different than the hate for the PT, which was somehow proven by the Resistance cartoon sucking and Marvel being more popular.

Nah, I'm not buying it. Lots of things were more popular than the PT back in the day (Spider-Man, Harry Potter, LOTR, etc.) so not being "first" doesn't negate something from having longevity or a resurgence years later. Plus the ST had one heck of a two-year honeymoon with TFA that the PT did not enjoy thanks to the backlash hitting instantly on the arrival of TPM.

Matrix literally embarrassed TPM out the gate lol

jye < savage proud

 

[Khev]

Matrix literally embarrassed TPM out the gate lol

jye < savage proud

So true compared to TFA spanking AOU and Ant-Man in 2015. And that little remote control BB-8 toy was everywhere. Video games is where it's at now, and the ST is all over Battlefront II and the awesome new Lego game. If Mando stays popular and segues right into the ST then that'll be this generation's "Clone Wars" that elevates yet another trilogy for future generations. And so on.

 

[Prime Clone]

What made it worse for PT Anakin was that he was tainting one of the most beloved characters in the history of cinema

Only if you had the preconceived notion that Anakin should be Vader-like from the get-go. George’s point (well-executed or otherwise) was that even the kindest, most selfless kid had the potential for eviI.

Yes, Anakin was whiny and impulsive just like his son. But he *did* evolve through the PT. And Vader *was* supposed to be like a whole different character.

 

[Ramatuelle]

OK but my question is, why did PT Anakin have to be like, five years old? [yes, some hyperbole there] He should have been 12-14 AT THE YOUNGEST, and then his later romance with Padme would have been a lot more palatable. 16-18 would have made the most amount of sense, especially considering all the "He's too old to train!" hoopla. A, what, eight-year-old? is too old to train? GTFO. But an eighteen year old.... yeah. He might be too old.

I began to have more tolerance for young Anakin when I read the comics. In the movies he ain't nothin' but a giant Mary Sue for little kids in the theatre. And I get that - but it didnt make him compelling.

 

[a-dev]

Again, I'm on board with where, in this case, ScoutingForToys is coming from with believing that the ST are utterly forgettable films which don't really deserve to be loved 20 years later - it's just that I felt and believed the same with the PT and was proven quite wrong by the passage of time.

 

[ScoutingForToys]

Okay that's a nice word salad but none of it changes the fact that the actual history of this franchise, not conjecture, not anecdotal assumptions, is that everybody loved the OT when it came out and still loved it 20 years later and most people bashed the PT when it came out yet it still has a fanbase 20 years later. There's no precedent for a SW trilogy, loved or hated, to not be popular decades later when the dust settles. So what you're claiming is that the 40 years of established precedent has no bearing on what we can expect from the future because the hate toward the ST is different than the hate for the PT, which was somehow proven by the Resistance cartoon sucking and Marvel being more popular.

Nah, I'm not buying it. Lots of things were more popular than the PT back in the day (Spider-Man, Harry Potter, LOTR, etc.) so not being "first" doesn't negate something from having longevity or a resurgence years later. Plus the ST had one heck of a two-year honeymoon with TFA that the PT did not enjoy thanks to the backlash hitting instantly on the arrival of TPM. As for the backlash against TLJ, kids that are new to SW don't care about Luke being a reclusive hermit who wasn't helping in the war just like we didn't care when Ben and Yoda did the same thing in the OT.

The reason the PT is loved by some adult fans, is that they grew up with the PT. They loved it as youngsters and love it now.
I just dont see the evidence that this generation of kids love the ST.
My point re the MCU, was that for current fans of Star Wars, we generally love it because it was a huge beloved event in our early lives. For kids now, that's the role the MCU plays for them.

In regards to kids not caring about the ruination of Luke Skywalker, true, but I'd imagine they'd find it boring. TLJ is a very dull movie afterall. Not child friendly (in terms of being fun and entertaining)

There's little point in continuing. You think the ST will be loved in 20 years because the PT is now. I think we can't just assume this will be the case as the circumstances are a little different.
The key will be whether kids now, love the ST and I can see no evidence that enough of them do to see a resurgence in the ST in the future.
And God only knows what the state of Star Wars will be in 20+ years.

So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Khev]

So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bravomite]

The ST is not very toyetic, it has no world building and the supporting media tie-ins are poor (that resistance show and the comics where’s the video games??). It just can’t capture the imagination of this generation like the PT. I was there as a kid in those PT times and it was huuuuuuge. Kids didn’t think they sucked only the the OT kids did (it wasn’t until I was much older that I found out that people didn’t like them). Social media nowadays has made it very clear that the ST was awful, even Khev and Jye cannot hold back the tide of online ST hate material that is available for this media savvy generation to see.

This doesn’t even factor in it has sooo much competition now the likes of which the PT never had. The MCU is a juggernaut and kids think it’s cool. It is the Star Wars of this generation. Plus kids have access to so much on demand media / content that they never dwell on a series for more than five minutes before moving on. The ST might have a small cult following in 20 years time but it’s not going to be like the PT today.

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

As for the backlash against TLJ, kids that are new to SW don't care about Luke being a reclusive hermit who wasn't helping in the war just like we didn't care when Ben and Yoda did the same thing in the OT.

With respect, these are completely different scenarios.

Obi-Wan, Yoda and the rest of the surviving Jedi went into hiding because the very Republic that they fought a long war for had turned its back on them, and the leader they had fought a long war for had vilified them and turned them into fugitives. The entire galaxy now thought that the Jedi were traitors and the entire galaxy was now looking for them to either bring them to justice or simply murder them. The whole power system and status quo had been flipped against the Jedi. There was no choice but to go into hiding and/or operate off the grid.

Luke went into hiding because he had a dream that his nephew might go bad. This is despite the fact that the Jedi and New Republic were now the power in charge - nobody was hunting Jedi, the Empire was largely defeated, and he had everything in place to rebuild the Republic and the Jedi Order. He had all resources and allies at his disposal to return the galaxy to its former days of peace and prosperity. Luke was on top. But he ran away because of a bad dream.

---

On a slightly related note, I still do not understand why Ben Solo was the only person that Luke Skywalker had in the new Jedi Order. Or at least it seems that way. The Empire has been defeated, so let's restore the Order by training one person. Imagine a fully fledged restored Jedi Order, or at least a growing and flourishing Jedi Order on the resurgence... oh what could have been.

Granted I only saw TFA once and TLJ once and was done after that (haven't seen TROS), so I don't know if Ben was the only other Jedi in the Order, but the movies I saw certainly made it appear that way, or that there was like 3 or 4 unseen at best.

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

The ST is not very toyetic, it has no world building and the supporting media tie-ins are poor (that resistance show and the comics where’s the video games??). It just can’t capture the imagination of this generation like the PT. I was there as a kid in those PT times and it was huuuuuuge. Kids didn’t think they sucked only the the OT kids did (it wasn’t until I was much older that I found out that people didn’t like them). Social media nowadays has made it very clear that the ST was awful, even Khev and Jye cannot hold back the tide of online ST hate material that is available for this media savvy generation to see.

This doesn’t even factor in it has sooo much competition now the likes of which the PT never had. The MCU is a juggernaut and kids think it’s cool. It is the Star Wars of this generation. Plus kids have access to so much on demand media / content that they never dwell on a series for more than five minutes before moving on. The ST might have a small cult following in 20 years time but it’s not going to be like the PT today.

Plus, if you are looking at things from a purely visual/coolness point of view (as most kids do), there is nothing significantly "new" in the ST. Everything is mostly just a rebrand or recolour of things we saw in the OT. Kids aren't necessarily going to want a toy of something they've seen before.

Look at the designs of the Naboo Starfighters, Podracers, Naboo Royal Starships, Gungans, Darth Maul, Destroyer Droids, Battle Droids, Droid Starfighters, Trade Federation Ships, the Jedi Starfighters (both iterations), Republic Gunships, the Clone Troopers, Count Dooku, Dooku's Solar Ship, Kaminoans, Republic Venator Star Destroyers, Spider Droids, ARC 170 Starfighters, General Grievous, countless new Jedi Knights, I could go on and on.

That's without touching on the designs of all the new planets that add to the world building; Coruscant, Naboo, Geonosis, Kamino, Utapau, Kashyyyk, Mustafar, etc.

This is all before you even consider The Clone Wars and Rebels.

It all inspires the imagination just like the OT did.

Everything here and more from the PT/TCW/Rebels is new yet appears alongside and compliments things that we know from the OT. It doesn't rely on the OT as the ST does.

One thing that the ST did try and do in terms of originality was some new races and species. However, it did so whilst completely omitting and removing key races and species established in the PT and OT. The PT and TCW/Rebels all introduce new races/species whilst still including races/species from the OT such as the Sand People, Twi'leks, Rodians, Bith, Wookies etc., which makes the PT feel like a connected part of the Star Wars story with the OT. Whereas in the instances where the ST does introduce a new race, it looks like something from Men In Black and a little uninspiring, and there are no Sand People, Twi'leks, Rodians, Bith, Wookies (except Chewbacca) etc. to be seen. It automatically makes it feel like a universe completely removed from the Star Wars story, despite all the ships and soldiers looking exactly the same as the OT.

 

[Prime Clone]

 

[Khev]

 

[Khev]

Watching my son go through the different Episodes of Lego Star Wars The Skywalker Saga and I really like that they enlisted pretty much all the relevant voice actors from TCW.

It actually gave a surprising feeling of closure to watch him complete ROTS while hearing TCW voices for Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda Dooku, and so on. I always thought that when TCW concluded that they should close out the series by doing an animated version of ROTS with those same characters just to have it be a more fluid transition.

But despite all the hilarious comedic bits that are peppered throughout and everyone looking like Lego characters it was actually quite cool to hear Matt Lanter's Anakin finally reciting key lines from ROTS against James Arnold Taylor's Obi-Wan.

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

Watching my son go through the different Episodes of Lego Star Wars The Skywalker Saga and I really like that they enlisted pretty much all the relevant voice actors from TCW.

It actually gave a surprising feeling of closure to watch him complete ROTS while hearing TCW voices for Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda Dooku, and so on. I always thought that when TCW concluded that they should close out the series by doing an animated version of ROTS with those same characters just to have it be a more fluid transition.

But despite all the hilarious comedic bits that are peppered throughout and everyone looking like Lego characters it was actually quite cool to hear Matt Lanter's Anakin finally reciting key lines from ROTS against James Arnold Taylor's Obi-Wan.

There is a debate amongst fans about whether we would prefer an animated "Revenge of the Sith" to compliment TCW, or a live action "Siege of Mandalore" (TCW S7 episodes 9-12) to compliment "Revenge of the Sith".

Is it too much to ask for both?

I slightly lean towards the latter, as the thought of a potential 3-4 hour supercut of "Revenge of the Sith" with the Siege of Mandalore plot edited in makes my mouth water.

 

[JAWS]

OT - Made for Kids of the 70s
PT - Made for kids of the 90's and 2000
ST - Made for ??????

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

OT - Made for Kids of the 70s
PT - Made for kids of the 90's and 2000
ST - Made for Kathleen Kennedy

 

[JAWS]

The reason the PT is loved by some adult fans, is that they grew up with the PT. They loved it as youngsters and love it now.
I just dont see the evidence that this generation of kids love the ST.
My point re the MCU, was that for current fans of Star Wars, we generally love it because it was a huge beloved event in our early lives. For kids now, that's the role the MCU plays for them.

I agree with this. Way too much competition for the ST.

If the ST was outstanding, then I think it would do just fine. But in an age of Marvel, Movie streaming and video games I just think that the ST is not good enough to deal with that sort of competition.

If it came out when the PT came out, then kids may have liked them. Though that was the Barney generation and this films may have been to dry for them.

I don't know. I have said this before. The ST lacked imagination. You are not sucked in like you are with the other SW movies. They are better made in terms of acting and direction compared to the PT but the worlds, ships, aliens, and characters are not as memorable or imaginative as the first 6 films.


Now I wont pretend to know if kids today will be the SW fans of tomorrow but again there is a lot of competition out there. SW will be forever but I really don't think it will ever be the same after the OT and PT generations die off.