Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[slikkerias]

All it takes is one.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Any time someone comes in here after it has been quiet for a couple of days and posts something about TLJ that criticises the movie it reminds me of that scene in the fellowship of the ring in Moria when Pippin knocks the skeleton down the well and you hear it banging all the way down. Can you hear the drums yet? I can hear the drums ... AJP is on his way!!

Just want to let you know that I do regret how much I annoy those here who hate TLJ; I don't enjoy being "that guy." But getting rid of me from this thread is really simple: just stop bringing it back from the dead. As long as this thread keeps going, I just can't resist it.

TLJ represents something particularly important to me, as someone who cares about SW far more than I should. When the ST was announced, I didn't get excited for it because I doubted that Star Wars was ever going to be allowed to feel new and bold ever again. And after watching TFA, it was depressing to know that the Star Wars franchise was going to forever be nothing more than re-hashing old plots, or filling in the blanks of what we already knew, or just serving up heaping helpings of fan service. I don't want SW to become that. And that's why I'm so damned grateful for TLJ.

To me, what specifically made the original SW movies so iconic was how new and fresh it all felt. It was a kick in the ass for movies. The OT felt bold and innovative; giving audiences a new way to enjoy familiar themes. Today, I've seen kids watch ANH for the first time - and while they enjoy it, the film no longer "wows" them. So, I want the SW franchise to capture people's imagination again; I want it to be bold and innovative . . . or at least to *try.* As far as I'm concerned, TLJ was the only one that tried to move the franchise forward. The rest have been nothing but imitators of what was, or mere extensions of it - and really just treading water. That's fine and all, but not worthy of the legacy this franchise had (only imo, of course).

TLJ made me think. It challenged my understanding of the foundations of SW lore. It felt different, but while maintaining the basic elements of classic SW. And even the familiar elements (Luke, the Force, the Jedi) gained more nuance.

Older Luke was more than just OT Luke with gray hair (like TFA Han). Luke moved beyond yearning for adventure and a role in changing the galaxy. He had spent years learning more about the Force, trying to be the type of Jedi from the days of his father, and then wanting to become like his mentors (Obi-Wan and Yoda) by training a new generation of Jedi. What he ended up realizing is that he became far too similar to his mentors. I find that intriguing; that he avoided the pitfalls of his father, but couldn't avoid the ones of his mentors. We see Luke dealing with that realization, and recognizing the futility of trying to do the same things while expecting a different result.

TLJ expanded on the Force; it's presented as more than just a vague/nebulous concept used as a plot device for giving Jedi their powers. And the notion of Jedi themselves emphasized how they're more than simply superheroes with fancy powers. The Jedi aren't just warriors who go around using their lightsabers all the time to take out bad guys; they're also monastic, scholastic, and stewards of several generations' collective knowledge of the Force - and they existed to preserve a peace using as minimal an amount of violence as possible.

I think the real message of TLJ has been obscured and confused; it's not about killing the past (that's what the *villain* wanted), it's about *evolving from* the past and pushing forward. And I, for one, appreciate when a SW movie can still honor and expand the past without simply copying it.

Haha, seriously? In this case it’s like the fellowship is an army armed to the teeth and what comes after you is a couple of already exhausted mountain trolls with sticks. [emoji28]
...the remaining troll army won’t bother with you - just sitting in their cave eating popcorn and enjoying TLJ. [emoji4]

Well put, my fellow troll.

 

[Wor-Gar]

And I, for one, appreciate when a SW movie can still honor and expand the past without simply copying it.

Cut To: Lando and Palpatine show up for their first day of work.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Cut To: Lando and Palpatine show up for their first day of work.

So true, it hurts.

 

[slikkerias]

Just want to let you know that I do regret how much I annoy those here who hate TLJ; I don't enjoy being "that guy." But getting rid of me from this thread is really simple: just stop bringing it back from the dead. As long as this thread keeps going, I just can't resist it.

TLJ represents something particularly important to me, as someone who cares about SW far more than I should. When the ST was announced, I didn't get excited for it because I doubted that Star Wars was ever going to be allowed to feel new and bold ever again. And after watching TFA, it was depressing to know that the Star Wars franchise was going to forever be nothing more than re-hashing old plots, or filling in the blanks of what we already knew, or just serving up heaping helpings of fan service. I don't want SW to become that. And that's why I'm so damned grateful for TLJ.

To me, what specifically made the original SW movies so iconic was how new and fresh it all felt. It was a kick in the ass for movies. The OT felt bold and innovative; giving audiences a new way to enjoy familiar themes. Today, I've seen kids watch ANH for the first time - and while they enjoy it, the film no longer "wows" them. So, I want the SW franchise to capture people's imagination again; I want it to be bold and innovative . . . or at least to *try.* As far as I'm concerned, TLJ was the only one that tried to move the franchise forward. The rest have been nothing but imitators of what was, or mere extensions of it - and really just treading water. That's fine and all, but not worthy of the legacy this franchise had (only imo, of course).

TLJ made me think. It challenged my understanding of the foundations of SW lore. It felt different, but while maintaining the basic elements of classic SW. And even the familiar elements (Luke, the Force, the Jedi) gained more nuance.

Older Luke was more than just OT Luke with gray hair (like TFA Han). Luke moved beyond yearning for adventure and a role in changing the galaxy. He had spent years learning more about the Force, trying to be the type of Jedi from the days of his father, and then wanting to become like his mentors (Obi-Wan and Yoda) by training a new generation of Jedi. What he ended up realizing is that he became far too similar to his mentors. I find that intriguing; that he avoided the pitfalls of his father, but couldn't avoid the ones of his mentors. We see Luke dealing with that realization, and recognizing the futility of trying to do the same things while expecting a different result.

TLJ expanded on the Force; it's presented as more than just a vague/nebulous concept used as a plot device for giving Jedi their powers. And the notion of Jedi themselves emphasized how they're more than simply superheroes with fancy powers. The Jedi aren't just warriors who go around using their lightsabers all the time to take out bad guys; they're also monastic, scholastic, and stewards of several generations' collective knowledge of the Force - and they existed to preserve a peace using as minimal an amount of violence as possible.

I think the real message of TLJ has been obscured and confused; it's not about killing the past (that's what the *villain* wanted), it's about *evolving from* the past and pushing forward. And I, for one, appreciate when a SW movie can still honor and expand the past without simply copying it.





Well put, my fellow troll.

Uuuuh, so glad I have you to write all these meaningful words when I’m not able to myself. I’m with you on every sentence here!
[emoji122]

 

[Reefer Shark]

Just want to let you know that I do regret how much I annoy those here who hate TLJ; I don't enjoy being "that guy." But getting rid of me from this thread is really simple: just stop bringing it back from the dead. As long as this thread keeps going, I just can't resist it.

TLJ represents something particularly important to me, as someone who cares about SW far more than I should. When the ST was announced, I didn't get excited for it because I doubted that Star Wars was ever going to be allowed to feel new and bold ever again. And after watching TFA, it was depressing to know that the Star Wars franchise was going to forever be nothing more than re-hashing old plots, or filling in the blanks of what we already knew, or just serving up heaping helpings of fan service. I don't want SW to become that. And that's why I'm so damned grateful for TLJ.

To me, what specifically made the original SW movies so iconic was how new and fresh it all felt. It was a kick in the ass for movies. The OT felt bold and innovative; giving audiences a new way to enjoy familiar themes. Today, I've seen kids watch ANH for the first time - and while they enjoy it, the film no longer "wows" them. So, I want the SW franchise to capture people's imagination again; I want it to be bold and innovative . . . or at least to *try.* As far as I'm concerned, TLJ was the only one that tried to move the franchise forward. The rest have been nothing but imitators of what was, or mere extensions of it - and really just treading water. That's fine and all, but not worthy of the legacy this franchise had (only imo, of course).

TLJ made me think. It challenged my understanding of the foundations of SW lore. It felt different, but while maintaining the basic elements of classic SW. And even the familiar elements (Luke, the Force, the Jedi) gained more nuance.

Older Luke was more than just OT Luke with gray hair (like TFA Han). Luke moved beyond yearning for adventure and a role in changing the galaxy. He had spent years learning more about the Force, trying to be the type of Jedi from the days of his father, and then wanting to become like his mentors (Obi-Wan and Yoda) by training a new generation of Jedi. What he ended up realizing is that he became far too similar to his mentors. I find that intriguing; that he avoided the pitfalls of his father, but couldn't avoid the ones of his mentors. We see Luke dealing with that realization, and recognizing the futility of trying to do the same things while expecting a different result.

TLJ expanded on the Force; it's presented as more than just a vague/nebulous concept used as a plot device for giving Jedi their powers. And the notion of Jedi themselves emphasized how they're more than simply superheroes with fancy powers. The Jedi aren't just warriors who go around using their lightsabers all the time to take out bad guys; they're also monastic, scholastic, and stewards of several generations' collective knowledge of the Force - and they existed to preserve a peace using as minimal an amount of violence as possible.

I think the real message of TLJ has been obscured and confused; it's not about killing the past (that's what the *villain* wanted), it's about *evolving from* the past and pushing forward. And I, for one, appreciate when a SW movie can still honor and expand the past without simply copying it.





Well put, my fellow troll.

well said as usual man! I'm in your camp regarding TLJ, and this is coming from a lifelong 48 year old Star Wars fan who's been in it from the very beginning.

 

[hellgrammite00]

I think the real message of TLJ has been obscured and confused; it's not about killing the past (that's what the *villain* wanted), it's about *evolving from* the past and pushing forward. And I, for one, appreciate when a SW movie can still honor and expand the past without simply copying it.

In a way, you are correct. But this isn't necessarily a star wars movie. Its a deconstruction of star wars at a fundamental level. The characters are commenting on the franchise itself. That is unique, an evolution. In a way its not an end to a story, but an end to a franchise. It breaks the fourth wall.

The Last Jedi is a deconstructed parody of Star Wars, here are my thoughts:

Luke represents the old trilogy of an old fanboy. He is sick of it, sick of star wars. Sick of conflict, of light sabers, of all this nostalgia. He keeps in reverence some of the older written books, but they sit on a dusty shelf now as a reminder of his own fandom. But he is older, has sought new hobbies, and will let the memories be for better or worse.

Ren represents a child like love of the trilogy. Love of anything star wars. She swings a lightsaber like the 50 year old men around here wish they could. She can pilot the Falcon better than Solo. She can use the force stronger and immediately more than any Jedi. She will defend the star wars lore until the end. She will defend star wars, even from evolution or growth.

Kylo represents an evolution from Rey to Luke. He has been teased for being a poor ripoff of star wars. He sees the reality of the new trilogy. His knockoff death star and knock off darth vader made money, but ultimately left him in an identity crisis. But he discovers Ray. Youthful, optimistic, and also looking for change. He starts thinking with her, they can start a new franchise that leads in another direction.

Luke does not like Kylo and Rey talking. He thinkings Kylo is just another Sith, and will force Rey to be just another Jedi, create the cycle of destruction over and over again. What he does not realize is that Rey is really the greatest threat to Star Wars.

On the flagship, Kylo and Rey defeat the Emperor 2.0 and his troops. Kylo offers Rey a chance to lead this franchise in a new direction. To continue evolving. Rey however will not go. She is addicted to the nostalgia of the oldways. She learned nothing from Luke, disregarded every lesson he taught. She even jumps into the void of mindless repetitiveness, the true darkside to the franchise. She becomes a corporate Disney Sith, wanting a mirror direction of empty sequels forever. This is when the movie abandons its evolution, to strive for an imitation of the franchise.

Kylo breaks down, and deevolves to standard dumb badguy #45. A perfect fit for Rey. He then goes to an alien planet, and ends the movie similar to how ESB begins. AT-ATs and mindless nostagia.

Yoda shows up to help luke by destroying the old star wars (and blows up all his collectables.) The franchise for the pure is dead, let it burn. Enjoy your stuffed animal Yoda. Let the young have their mindless star wars. Yoda let's Luke know the end is here, and it is time for his star star wars to finally die.

Luke shows up, a literal ghost of his former self. The evolution of star-wars has died, and along with it luke. The only evolved character must die, the movie deciding mindless repetitiveness is needed over evolution. Only a ghost of himself is available to parade around to give the fans another battle, to only be hollow and fake. Luke then dies, hopeless, with the franchise he created also killing him for preaching evolution. A new hero now with the powers of every character she has met, and forgoing the lessons of Luke.

In the end, Rey is the greatest villain to the franchise evolving. She betrays the wishes of Luke. She betrays the bond offered by Kylo. To her there is only conflict. Never ending....franchise repetitive conflict. A room full of mirrors, reflecting herself, which is empty corporatism.

 

[a-dev]

Damn.......your move ajp...

 

[slikkerias]

In a way, you are correct. But this isn't necessarily a star wars movie. Its a deconstruction of star wars at a fundamental level. The characters are commenting on the franchise itself. That is unique, an evolution. In a way its not an end to a story, but an end to a franchise. It breaks the fourth wall.

The Last Jedi is a deconstructed parody of Star Wars, here are my thoughts:

Luke represents the old trilogy of an old fanboy. He is sick of it, sick of star wars. Sick of conflict, of light sabers, of all this nostalgia. He keeps in reverence some of the older written books, but they sit on a dusty shelf now as a reminder of his own fandom. But he is older, has sought new hobbies, and will let the memories be for better or worse.

Ren represents a child like love of the trilogy. Love of anything star wars. She swings a lightsaber like the 50 year old men around here wish they could. She can pilot the Falcon better than Solo. She can use the force stronger and immediately more than any Jedi. She will defend the star wars lore until the end. She will defend star wars, even from evolution or growth.

Kylo represents an evolution from Rey to Luke. He has been teased for being a poor ripoff of star wars. He sees the reality of the new trilogy. His knockoff death star and knock off darth vader made money, but ultimately left him in an identity crisis. But he discovers Ray. Youthful, optimistic, and also looking for change. He starts thinking with her, they can start a new franchise that leads in another direction.

Luke does not like Kylo and Rey talking. He thinkings Kylo is just another Sith, and will force Rey to be just another Jedi, create the cycle of destruction over and over again. What he does not realize is that Rey is really the greatest threat to Star Wars.

On the flagship, Kylo and Rey defeat the Emperor 2.0 and his troops. Kylo offers Rey a chance to lead this franchise in a new direction. To continue evolving. Rey however will not go. She is addicted to the nostalgia of the oldways. She learned nothing from Luke, disregarded every lesson he taught. She even jumps into the void of mindless repetitiveness, the true darkside to the franchise. She becomes a corporate Disney Sith, wanting a mirror direction of empty sequels forever. This is when the movie abandons its evolution, to strive for an imitation of the franchise.

Kylo breaks down, and deevolves to standard dumb badguy #45. A perfect fit for Rey. He then goes to an alien planet, and ends the movie similar to how ESB begins. AT-ATs and mindless nostagia.

Yoda shows up to help luke by destroying the old star wars (and blows up all his collectables.) The franchise for the pure is dead, let it burn. Enjoy your stuffed animal Yoda. Let the young have their mindless star wars. Yoda let's Luke know the end is here, and it is time for his star star wars to finally die.

Luke shows up, a literal ghost of his former self. The evolution of star-wars has died, and along with it luke. The only evolved character must die, the movie deciding mindless repetitiveness is needed over evolution. Only a ghost of himself is available to parade around to give the fans another battle, to only be hollow and fake. Luke then dies, hopeless, with the franchise he created also killing him for preaching evolution. A new hero now with the powers of every character she has met, and forgoing the lessons of Luke.

In the end, Rey is the greatest villain to the franchise evolving. She betrays the wishes of Luke. She betrays the bond offered by Kylo. To her there is only conflict. Never ending....franchise repetitive conflict. A room full of mirrors, reflecting herself, which is empty corporatism.

If this is true then RJ must be a true genius. A meta movie at its finest. He sees the future of the franchise as just an endless repeating circle of exploding Death Stars and makes the only truly original movie in the new trilogy: A movie where the cliches are used only to comment on the franchise as a whole. A meta movie. And all this under Disney’s radar.
Back in high school we would probably call this excessive perspectivation (and a little paranoid) and it’s not how I see the movie (yet), but you really give him a lot of credit as a filmmaker.

 

[Khev]

I think little bit of self-awareness is a good thing "so how do we blow it up, there's always a way" but I agree that TLJ took it too far.

 

[hellgrammite00]

If this is true then RJ must be a true genius. A meta movie at its finest. He sees the future of the franchise as just an endless repeating circle of exploding Death Stars and makes the only truly original movie in the new trilogy: A movie where the cliches are used only to comment on the franchise as a whole. A meta movie. And all this under Disney’s radar.
Back in high school we would probably call this excessive perspectivation (and a little paranoid) and it’s not how I see the movie (yet), but you really give him a lot of credit as a filmmaker.

Yes, considering he was both not just he director, but the writer, this is not as far-fetched as it might seem.

He made an anti-starwars franchise movie, a deconstruction, disguised as an actual star-wars movie.

Just a theory. Some of his interviews, and his need to play with audience expectations and have some self awareness about the franchise, might lead credence to this.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yes, considering he was both not just he director, but the writer, this is not as far-fetched as it might seem.

He made an anti-starwars franchise movie, a deconstruction, disguised as an actual star-wars movie.

Just a theory. Some of his interviews, and his need to play with audience expectations and have some self awareness about the franchise, might lead credence to this.

I obviously disagree with your take on the meta commentary of TLJ, especially if you're suggesting that Rian Johnson was intentionally crafting the film to destroy what Star Wars was. Frankly, I think believing such a thing requires creating a very cynical context surrounding a guy who actually lived and breathed Star Wars when he was growing up. Instead of interpreting his intentions for the franchise from interviews that he did which had *nothing* to do with his SW film, I think it's more informative to evaluate his words about the franchise itself. This is a photo I took of a page from the art book for TLJ, for example.



Does that seem like someone who would have any interest in deconstructing the franchise in order to tear down what it had built? I'd also point out that Johnson chose to go to film school at USC because George Lucas was his hero! One of the most admirable things about Lucas is that (at his best) he aspires to be bold and innovative; he's not a status-quo kind of guy. Much like his hero, I think Rian Johnson understands the need to push things forward - to take risks and shake things up in order to make it seem fresh.

In the famous sit-down interview Lucas did with CBS after TFA came out, he said that he didn't like that they made a movie that goes backward (a retread of sorts). Lucas wanted to push the saga *forward* to its conclusion, and show how it's all about family and generational changes/improvements (not just about the Jedi/Sith conflict in the eternal struggle between good and evil).

From my perspective, Johnson inherited a story from TFA that almost forced a complete retread for the rest of the trilogy. But he managed to use that to turn everything on its head. The result is a film that opened the door for a multitude of possible storylines to conclude the saga on. No longer was it "Vader 2.0" (Kylo) being manipulated by "Emperor 2.0" (Snoke) only to be redeemed in the end by "Luke 2.0" (Rey). Johnson changed the trajectory far more than I would've thought possible. The Kylo/Rey dynamic now has its own unique place in SW context. And Kylo ends the film no longer at the mercy of a puppet master; he's in charge of his ultimate destiny.

We'll see where J.J. takes the ball and runs with it now; but if his Vanity Fair interview is any indication, I have reason to hope that being bold and creative is more of a priority for him now with this final installment than it was when he made TFA. For me, that's the best way to preserve relevancy for this franchise for the long term.

When those of us who were kids when the OT came out are all dead and gone, I'd like every succeeding generation to have their own version of that SW experience growing up. That won't happen with nothing but retreads, nostalgia-driven entries, and soft reboots. You don't kill the past, but you also don't merely repeat/copy it; you use the strengths of it to spring forward and keep evolving. I think that was more of the aim Johnson had in mind for TLJ.

 

[slikkerias]

I obviously disagree with your take on the meta commentary of TLJ, especially if you're suggesting that Rian Johnson was intentionally crafting the film to destroy what Star Wars was. Frankly, I think believing such a thing requires creating a very cynical context surrounding a guy who actually lived and breathed Star Wars when he was growing up. Instead of interpreting his intentions for the franchise from interviews that he did which had *nothing* to do with his SW film, I think it's more informative to evaluate his words about the franchise itself. This is a photo I took of a page from the art book for TLJ, for example.

View attachment 461864

Does that seem like someone who would have any interest in deconstructing the franchise in order to tear down what it had built? I'd also point out that Johnson chose to go to film school at USC because George Lucas was his hero! One of the most admirable things about Lucas is that (at his best) he aspires to be bold and innovative; he's not a status-quo kind of guy. Much like his hero, I think Rian Johnson understands the need to push things forward - to take risks and shake things up in order to make it seem fresh.

In the famous sit-down interview Lucas did with CBS after TFA came out, he said that he didn't like that they made a movie that goes backward (a retread of sorts). Lucas wanted to push the saga *forward* to its conclusion, and show how it's all about family and generational changes/improvements (not just about the Jedi/Sith conflict in the eternal struggle between good and evil).

From my perspective, Johnson inherited a story from TFA that almost forced a complete retread for the rest of the trilogy. But he managed to use that to turn everything on its head. The result is a film that opened the door for a multitude of possible storylines to conclude the saga on. No longer was it "Vader 2.0" (Kylo) being manipulated by "Emperor 2.0" (Snoke) only to be redeemed in the end by "Luke 2.0" (Rey). Johnson changed the trajectory far more than I would've thought possible. The Kylo/Rey dynamic now has its own unique place in SW context. And Kylo ends the film no longer at the mercy of a puppet master; he's in charge of his ultimate destiny.

We'll see where J.J. takes the ball and runs with it now; but if his Vanity Fair interview is any indication, I have reason to hope that being bold and creative is more of a priority for him now with this final installment than it was when he made TFA. For me, that's the best way to preserve relevancy for this franchise for the long term.

When those of us who were kids when the OT came out are all dead and gone, I'd like every succeeding generation to have their own version of that SW experience growing up. That won't happen with nothing but retreads, nostalgia-driven entries, and soft reboots. You don't kill the past, but you also don't merely repeat/copy it; you use the strengths of it to spring forward and keep evolving. I think that was more of the aim Johnson had in mind for TLJ.

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

 

[ShadowX81]

Does that seem like someone who would have any interest in deconstructing the franchise in order to tear down what it had built? I'd also point out that Johnson chose to go to film school at USC because George Lucas was his hero! One of the most admirable things about Lucas is that (at his best) he aspires to be bold and innovative; he's not a status-quo kind of guy. Much like his hero, I think Rian Johnson understands the need to push things forward - to take risks and shake things up in order to make it seem fresh.

But the very definition of taking a risk means that it isn't always going to work out for you. He did something different and took a risk. It didn't work. Im sure he had noble intentions, but there are some risks that just don't pay off. And doing something different for its own sake is always a gamble.

From my perspective, Johnson inherited a story from TFA that almost forced a complete retread for the rest of the trilogy. But he managed to use that to turn everything on its head. The result is a film that opened the door for a multitude of possible storylines to conclude the saga on. No longer was it "Vader 2.0" (Kylo) being manipulated by "Emperor 2.0" (Snoke) only to be redeemed in the end by "Luke 2.0" (Rey). Johnson changed the trajectory far more than I would've thought possible. The Kylo/Rey dynamic now has its own unique place in SW context. And Kylo ends the film no longer at the mercy of a puppet master; he's in charge of his ultimate destiny.

For most of us, the Kylo/Rey stuff was the only decent part of the movie. It was everything else that was god awful.

 

[ironwez20]

Lol are we still debating whether or not this movie was good? In a world where people care more about the mcu or sonic’s redesign than the next movie in the saga? Yea debate closed lol

 

[Prime Clone]

I've said it before, but since we're here again:

TFA = SW reconstructed

TLJ = SW deconstructed

TROS = best of both worlds?


JJ says TLJ inspired him to take more risks with the final episode. But he still needs to pay homage to the OT and PT in wrapping up the saga. The result will be interesting to say the least.

I also remember JJ defending TFA by saying "we had to go back in order to go forward". Then RJ comes in and upends everything!

 

[slikkerias]

Lol are we still debating whether or not this movie was good? In a world where people care more about the mcu or sonic’s redesign than the next movie in the saga? Yea debate closed lol

[emoji2357]

 

[ironwez20]

[emoji2357]

Can’t see it buddy. Lol

 

[xipotec]

Can’t see it buddy. Lol

I think the point is everyone on the internet has opinion on everything....

Even a stupid movie about a video game character which has no possible way of being close to a good film...

You know what they say about opinions.





Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Python]

Not sure if this was posted, I haven't been fully keeping up with the thread. But here's RLM's traditional prediction video for Rise of Skywalker.