Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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1. Why couldn't the rebels in ROTJ have simply sent the Endor shield team down to deactivate it like they do, but instead of endangering everyone in the rebel fleet, send say five of the largest (ie size of raddus or bigger) EMPTY spacecraft they could steal/find, piloted by a droid or auto pilot, into hyperspace and don't stop as the rebel fleet does in ROTJ, and plow right into/through the DSII?

I think the canon explanation was cost. The rebels had a much smaller fleet so losing ships (especially capital ships) would be a big blow to the movement. The empire had vastly superior numbers and resources so while the loss of a Death Star would be expensive, they'd still have a much larger fleet to retaliate with against the rebels who'd have lost a bigger chunk of their firepower with that suicide run.

2. Why didn't anyone use force projection in the OT, even for a short "non-fatal" trip (say a minute or so,) for example Ben force-projecting to Alderaan for a minute to tell the rebels about leia's capture and the DSI plans, or Yoda in ESB force-projecting to Bespin to aid the about-to-die Luke (even just enough for Luke to escape ), or Vader using force projection at many points in the OT?

The same way other dead Jedi didn't come back as force ghosts in the OT? Force projection could be an evolution of the methods used to resurrect one's self as a Force Ghost. Or it could simply be a way to use the Force that no other Jedi thought of before (in the same way Qui Gon was the first to return from the dead as a Force Ghost).
 
I think the canon explanation was cost. The rebels had a much smaller fleet so losing ships (especially capital ships) would be a big blow to the movement. The empire had vastly superior numbers and resources so while the loss of a Death Star would be expensive, they'd still have a much larger fleet to retaliate with against the rebels who'd have lost a bigger chunk of their firepower with that suicide run.



The same way other dead Jedi didn't come back as force ghosts in the OT? Force projection could be an evolution of the methods used to resurrect one's self as a Force Ghost. Or it could simply be a way to use the Force that no other Jedi thought of before (in the same way Qui Gon was the first to return from the dead as a Force Ghost).

These just feel a little weak though - like Jyn giving her speech and the rebels responding with "eh, we've blown the budget already" and "we don't do spaceship theft," and then for the force projection "the powers of the thousands of years old Jedi order evolved radically... in 30 years. You know, Dark Zuckerberg, Spacebook and the Sithernet arrived and it was a game changer for powers.":lol

ajp will bring it home.:yess: Just want something that's pretty clear and makes sense.
 
Palps will call out to Kylo too. And Kylo will ultimately throw him down into some deep abyss... just as the genius that is Palpatine has planned all along. We won't know what his true master plan is until the next trilogy.
 
With regard to Force Projection in the OT my assumption from TLJ was simply that Yoda and Ben hadn't learned the skill.

That seems like a sort of super-duper glaring omission though. Like it never came up - for Vader, and Ben, AND Yoda?


"Your powers are weak, old man - you haven't even heard of this kick-*** power you coulda been using RIGHT NOW and I'm not gonna tell you what it is.":lol

"It is the future you see, always in motion is future. Decide you must how to serve them best, for if you leave now, help them you-- what? Force projection? No, not heard of that one I have. Hmm" :lol

Isn't Ghost Ben and Ghost Yoda basically a half-assed Force Projection from the Dead Zone?

I always thought being dead was a condition of entry however.:lol
 
I always got the impression from the OT that there was a lot more to the Force and what a Jedi could than what we saw on screen. Once Yoda said that size matters not and that Luke failed because he didn't believe then the sky was really the limit at that point.

I took it that the Jedi could do almost anything that any situation called for if they had the right connection to the Force and the belief that they could do it which goes way beyond a finite list of skills that they're all taught by any given teacher.

I know that largely changed with the PT but my thought with the OT was that masters would teach apprentices how to connect with the Force, how to control it, then would just sit back and see what the student ended up doing with that knowledge (kind of like Neo doing his thing with the agents at the end of the first Matrix.) That's just how I took Yoda's teachings, obviously the dialogue was mostly "high level" so it allows a lot of leeway in how to interpret it.
 
That seems like a sort of super-duper glaring omission though. Like it never came up - for Vader, and Ben, AND Yoda?


"Your powers are weak, old man - you haven't even heard of this kick-*** power you coulda been using RIGHT NOW and I'm not gonna tell you what it is.":lol

"It is the future you see, always in motion is future. Decide you must how to serve them best, for if you leave now, help them you-- what? Force projection? No, not heard of that one I have. Hmm" :lol



I always thought being dead was a condition of entry however.:lol

That's kind how Force Ghosts where in the PT though? No one, even Yoda knew how a Jedi in tune with the Force can come back from the dead. Not until Qui Gon did.

SW has been pretty loose on what the Force can do throughout the movies past til present.
 
So if you were to answer simply the key concerns from TLJ, what would you say to:

1. Why couldn't the rebels in ROTJ have simply sent the Endor shield team down to deactivate it like they do, but instead of endangering everyone in the rebel fleet, send say five of the largest (ie size of raddus or bigger) EMPTY spacecraft they could steal/find, piloted by a droid or auto pilot, into hyperspace and don't stop as the rebel fleet does in ROTJ, and plow right into/through the DSII?

As you've accounted for, having to covertly take the shields down on Endor first would be the key part of any plan. Once the shield generator had been taken out, sending smaller fighters into a WIP Death Star (thereby providing easy access) was a solid strategy with a good risk/reward ratio. Having smaller fighter ships navigating through the internal DSII structure and taking aim at the core directly allows for far more precision and reliability than using a hyperspace kamikaze tactic. The plan in the movie would've been preferable from a logistical point of view. The Emperor being prepared for their arrival (which the Alliance couldn't have known) is the only reason that the operation got messy in ROTJ.

Holdo destroying the Supremacy wasn't an offensive strategic tactic to take out an enemy asset, it was a defensive tactic to preserve the remainder of the fleeing Resistance fighters. It was desperation. As a tactical option for attack, the risk/reward ratio (given the number of factors that need to be accounted for) would make it virtually a non-option in any other scenario. Some of those factors (pre-calculated hyperspace jump coordinates Poe had set, Holdo manually overriding safety protocols, the Raddus using experimental shields, etc.) that have been explicitly outlined in canon to contextualize how unlikely a similar tactic would be in succeeding under other circumstances has been well established. It worked (against heavy odds), but there was no other option on the table. In ROTJ, the Rebellion had come up with a tactical plan that I see as entirely superior to sacrificing key resources on a high-odds gamble.

We can't underestimate the massive size of the DSII. Even with an enormous ship like the Raddus, the structure of Snoke's Supremacy (which had a much smaller profile than a Death Star) was still merely split/severed. I don't see how the Rebellion leadership would've deemed a similar hyperspace kamikaze maneuver as being a better (or even worthwhile) option. And I agree with e30ernest about how the Rebellion would be hesitant to waste their best resources. They were the galaxy's only chance at toppling the Empire; preserving their fleet (especially their costliest assets) would've been a priority. Destroying the first Death Star didn't cripple the Empire; far from it - they just immediately started building a second one. The DSII needed to be destroyed, but doing so with a Holdo tactic would've only been an option as a an act of desperation if the main plan failed.

2. Why didn't anyone use force projection in the OT, even for a short "non-fatal" trip (say a minute or so,) for example Ben force-projecting to Alderaan for a minute to tell the rebels about leia's capture and the DSI plans, or Yoda in ESB force-projecting to Bespin to aid the about-to-die Luke (even just enough for Luke to escape ), or Vader using force projection at many points in the OT?

Since you've made it clear that on-screen OT is the only reference source that you consider the biblical-type authority in establishing the rules of SW, I'll use on-screen OT context exclusively in my answer for this one. :) And that context has a lot to do with how the idea of "Force ghosts" gets portrayed in the OT.

To me, it was ANH (not the PT) that established Force ghosts as an actual Force ability (rather than as our universally-understood concept of "conventional" ghosts/spirits). When Kenobi gave himself up at the end of the duel with Vader, the earlier line of "I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" is more telling than it seems on the surface. Remember, Obi-Wan is talking to a fellow Force user with a "devotion to that ancient religion." Why wouldn't Vader (a fellow master of the Force) be able to "possibly imagine" the potential of a Force ghost? It was because Obi-Wan clearly felt that he knew something that his former pupil didn't/couldn't understand.

When Kenobi projected his voice to encourage Luke to "run Luke, run," he was immediately demonstrating why he had a knowing smile before his body vanished. By surmising that he'd become something unimaginably powerful, Obi-Wan was establishing that what he was about to achieve had not been seen/known by even the likes of a master of the Force (surely, Vader/Anakin would've been aware of Force ghosts if all Jedi had transitioned that way in the past). Kenobi was breaking new ground; he was mastering a previously-unseen Force ability. And yes, in the PT we discover that he had specifically learned it from Qui-Gon. A Jedi Master had discovered and passed on a new ability.

In TLJ, Kylo is the only one on screen (outside of Luke) to demonstrate any awareness of true Force projection and its lethal consequences. Since Kylo/Ben had been trained by Luke, we have yet another case of a master training his apprentice about a new/unused Force ability. Even more fitting/poetic is the fact that Luke has become the Obi-Wan of the ST.

The way I interpret the projection in TLJ, Luke surrendered himself to the Force in order to accomplish the feat. In essence, Luke had to surrender his corporeal existence (much like Obi-Wan did in ANH) in order to project himself at all in another form (again, like Obi-Wan). When Luke dissolved the projection, I view those last moments of his on Ahch-To as him clinging on as long as possible in order to properly say goodbye to not only Leia and Rey, but to his physical life. For all intents and purposes, corporeal Luke was effectively gone as soon as he transitioned into projection form. His full physical departure in front of the binary suns was a delayed closure for Luke (and for the audience).

Kenobi, Yoda, and Vader never used Force projection because 1.) Luke and Kylo are the only two who we can be sure even knew about it, and 2.) it would mean having to surrender yourself to the Force; aka dying in the physical world being the inevitable consequence.
 
Just read over all of your posts. As I always say - approach LFL to see if you could have role there via social media. You're much better than those people. You make it engaging too:lecture

So if you were to answer simply the key concerns from TLJ, what would you say to:

1. Why couldn't the rebels in ROTJ have simply sent the Endor shield team down to deactivate it like they do, but instead of endangering everyone in the rebel fleet, send say five of the largest (ie size of raddus or bigger) EMPTY spacecraft they could steal/find, piloted by a droid or auto pilot, into hyperspace and don't stop as the rebel fleet does in ROTJ, and plow right into/through the DSII?

2. Why didn't anyone use force projection in the OT, even for a short "non-fatal" trip (say a minute or so,) for example Ben force-projecting to Alderaan for a minute to tell the rebels about leia's capture and the DSI plans, or Yoda in ESB force-projecting to Bespin to aid the about-to-die Luke (even just enough for Luke to escape ), or Vader using force projection at many points in the OT?

They had not thought of it man!!! I keep saying this ......history os littered with examples of tactics that seem obvious now, but never were thought of till one crazy bastard did it.




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
First time ever on a forum to discuss the Last Jedi. I generally avoid the internet in discussing things like this (keep my love/hate talk about movies to friends and family.)

I enjoy some of the theories and opinions people have about events and impacts the last Jedi had. How things might have worked.

But overally, people's explanations and thoughts are simply much more impressive than the movie. The movie is just terrible. A lot of things don't make sense, character's change whenever the story shifts, and the movie dabbles in and out of the star wars universe whenever it wants.

Very big star wars friends of mine read a lot of the books out there. They enjoy reading events or details that shed light and growth of characters between movies. Sure, some things are not explained in the movies, and time passes, but it allows us to fill in the blanks and create a creative community.

The Last Jedi flies in the face of it. It doesn't following logic of the previous movies. It changes characters on a dime to fit a particular scene, not a movie. The movie is called star wars, yet aside from a few notable artifacts or people, is otherwise a bland movie (even if it is technically brilliant, and has a massive budget.)

For me, I like star wars. The Force Awakens was uninspired, more a copy paste of other movies with a disney lens. But I gave it a pass because it was setting up a new trilogy, and gave us new characters to grow with.

The Last Jedi starts immediately after the previous movie. It doesn't know what it wants to be (who is evil, how many surprises can we fit in a scene, can porgs sell toys, moments simply are and are never earned.)

Bit of a rant. I would say some of the comments on here are creative, insightful and doing their best to provide insights into something that does not deserve their creative thoughts.

To me, the Last Jedi may be deep in the sense its a parody of a star wars movie. I could produce more insight into this, but I have already spent enough time on a bad movie.

What kills it for me is I did not see Solo. I am not seeing Reboot of the Skywalkers, or whatever they are calling the next movie to manipulate our nostalgia to sell tickets and figures. I am done. It is sad.

Thanks for listening. Always up for constructive feedback. Just sat on my thoughts on this movie for over a 1.5 years, and finally decided to talk to the community now that hopefully the community may be more calm and collected discussing it.
 
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Welcome brother. Couldn't agree more.
 
Any time someone comes in here after it has been quiet for a couple of days and posts something about TLJ that criticises the movie it reminds me of that scene in the fellowship of the ring in Moria when Pippin knocks the skeleton down the well and you hear it banging all the way down. Can you hear the drums yet? I can hear the drums ... AJP is on his way!!

For the record I do agree and feel your pain. I've made my peace with it by just erasing the ST from the Bravomite Star Wars canon temple archives
 
First time ever on a forum to discuss the Last Jedi. I generally avoid the internet in discussing things like this (keep my love/hate talk about movies to friends and family.)

I enjoy some of the theories and opinions people have about events and impacts the last Jedi had. How things might have worked.

But overally, people's explanations and thoughts are simply much more impressive than the movie. The movie is just terrible. A lot of things don't make sense, character's change whenever the story shifts, and the movie dabbles in and out of the star wars universe whenever it wants.

Very big star wars friends of mine read a lot of the books out there. They enjoy reading events or details that shed light and growth of characters between movies. Sure, some things are not explained in the movies, and time passes, but it allows us to fill in the blanks and create a creative community.

The Last Jedi flies in the face of it. It doesn't following logic of the previous movies. It changes characters on a dime to fit a particular scene, not a movie. The movie is called star wars, yet aside from a few notable artifacts or people, is otherwise a bland movie (even if it is technically brilliant, and has a massive budget.)

For me, I like star wars. The Force Awakens was uninspired, more a copy paste of other movies with a disney lens. But I gave it a pass because it was setting up a new trilogy, and gave us new characters to grow with.

The Last Jedi starts immediately after the previous movie. It doesn't know what it wants to be (who is evil, how many surprises can we fit in a scene, can porgs sell toys, moments simply are and are never earned.)

Bit of a rant. I would say some of the comments on here are creative, insightful and doing their best to provide insights into something that does not deserve their creative thoughts.

To me, the Last Jedi may be deep in the sense its a parody of a star wars movie. I could produce more insight into this, but I have already spent enough time on a bad movie.

What kills it for me is I did not see Solo. I am not seeing Reboot of the Skywalkers, or whatever they are calling the next movie to manipulate our nostalgia to sell tickets and figures. I am done. It is sad.

Thanks for listening. Always up for constructive feedback. Just sat on my thoughts on this movie for over a 1.5 years, and finally decided to talk to the community now that hopefully the community may be more calm and collected discussing it.

Welcome, you’ll fit right into the in crowd here. You should know that I am one of the only remaining opponents you have here, so keep an eye out for my comments - you wouldn’t miss a chance to load off! [emoji6]
 
Any time someone comes in here after it has been quiet for a couple of days and posts something about TLJ that criticises the movie it reminds me of that scene in the fellowship of the ring in Moria when Pippin knocks the skeleton down the well and you hear it banging all the way down. Can you hear the drums yet? I can hear the drums ... AJP is on his way!!

For the record I do agree and feel your pain. I've made my peace with it by just erasing the ST from the Bravomite Star Wars canon temple archives

Haha, seriously? In this case it’s like the fellowship is an army armed to the teeth and what comes after you is a couple of already exhausted mountain trolls with sticks. [emoji28]
...the remaining troll army won’t bother with you - just sitting in their cave eating popcorn and enjoying TLJ. [emoji4]
 
Welcome, you’ll fit right into the in crowd here. You should know that I am one of the only remaining opponents you have here, so keep an eye out for my comments - you wouldn’t miss a chance to load off! [emoji6]

All it takes is one.:lecture

hN4ITKD.gif
 
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