Most annoying Star Wars character

[ajp4mgs]

And if they hate the idea of him hiding out on an island then they have to hate his masters obi wan and yoda too. Which means they hate the ot too cause their so called ?cowardly antics? are central to the plot of those films

Yoda and Kenobi were presented differently when we first met them in the OT. Yoda was portrayed as a guru of the ways of the Force, and not necessarily a Jedi fighter. Plus, he seemed physically incapable of being an effective warrior since he was 900 years old and limping around on a cane. As for Obi-Wan, he explicitly told Luke that he was too old to be of any use fighting the Empire into submission. They waited for the "new hope" because they seemingly had no other choice.

When Yoda was introduced in ESB, we didn't know that he had been jumping around like a coked-up ninja turtle with a lightsaber a mere 20 years earlier. The PT reframed what kind of Jedi Yoda was, and what he was capable of at his age. It was only then that the idea of cowardice even became a question for me. If Yoda went into hiding in hopes of secretly training the "new hope," he and Kenobi sure picked a strange (and dumb) way to go about it. Why not train Luke as a youngling, instead of later complaining that he was too old?

Yoda and Kenobi were perfectly fine when only considered with just OT context. Back then, I had no problem with either of them because they seemingly had little or no choice. The PT changed their context, though, and it's why I'd prefer not to have to think about them in that newer context. I'd also prefer not to think of Luke as someone who ran away from the fight, doing whatever he'd be doing, while his sister and the galaxy was in increasing peril. But that's how Luke was presented by JJ in TFA. I know you see it differently, but I'm just giving you *my* point of view.

No matter what, Luke didn't lose a fight to a Palpatine who legally took charge of the galaxy. He was living under the New Republic, and not facing some kind of sanctioned slaughter of all Jedi (Order 66). Luke needing to contend with Snoke and Kylo (essentially terrorists with no recognized authority) was not on the level of dealing with Palpatine, Vader, and the Empire that controlled the entire galaxy.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Obi wan was not too old after revenge of the sith neither was yoda, we are getting an obi wan tv show for christ sakes about his exploits if all he could do was sit around that will be a boring show. Luke was old too btw but no matter what i say you have mind made up lol. Those are not good justifications at all. The facts are both of them went into exile after failing in order to regroup and wait on the new hope to find them, which is the same exact thing luke was doing in tfa but rian ruined it

 

[ajp4mgs]

Obi wan was not too old after revenge of the sith neither was yoda, we are getting an obi wan tv show for christ sakes about his exploits if all he could do was sit around that will be a boring show. Luke was old too btw but no matter what i say you have mind made up lol

I know Obi-Wan wasn't too old after ROTS, dude. That's why I was referring to calling himself too old in ANH. I was referring to OT Kenobi.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Luke is about the same age in tfa as obi wan was in new hope so what is your point? And what about yoda then, in empire he was stil able to lift an xwing thats pretty powerful force stuff right. How bout the emperor who is older than all but yoda

And you proved my point if obi wan wasnt to old after rots why did he just stay in exile while innocent people were being massacred by the empire, regardless he waited a long time to do something an only acted after the new hope found him, which was Jj original plan for luke as well

 

[ajp4mgs]

Luke is about the same age in tfa as obi wan was in new hope so what is your point? And what about yoda then, in empire he was stil able to lift an xwing thats pretty powerful force stuff right

My point is what I said in the post: Kenobi called himself too old in ANH, so it didn't bother me that he was exiled and hiding from Vader and the Empire. And Kenobi had nothing but a scattered Rebellion to have his back. Luke wasn't under Imperial rule when Kylo turned on him; plus Leia's Resistance was actively looking for him.

When Kenobi went into exile, no one was counting on him to save the galaxy since he'd have to topple an entire Empire that was sending massive resources to exterminate the Jedi. Luke had a sister who needed/relied on his help. Totally different in my book. Luke wasn't facing the same insurmountable odds as Obi-Wan.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Luke was old too dude i dont get your comparison at all why one is ok but the other isnt. Obi wan and yoda both had friends too but they let them be hunted down and killed while they hid in exile. What do you mean nobody was counting on obi wan the message is clear help us obi wan kenobi your are, our only hope

 

[ajp4mgs]

Luke was old too dude i dont get your comparison at all why one is ok but the other isnt.

Again (and for the last time), before the PT, there was no reason to believe that Yoda and Kenobi could contend with Vader and Palpatine. Then Yoda was an 880-year-old whirling dervish with a lightsaber in AOTC, which was the same movie that showed an older Dooku taking out TWO Jedi in their prime.

Plus, I don't see 2015/2017 Mark Hamill the way I did 1977 Alec Guinness.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Help us obi wan kenobi you are our only hope. I get it you hate the ot too cause obi wan was a coward. Luke woulnt have beaten kylo or snoke either kylo hated him and btw rey only succeeded because kylo has a thing for her. He wouldnt kill his nephew which is inline with his character just like obiwan couldnt finish off anakin when he had the chance

 

[ajp4mgs]

Help us obi wan kenobi you are our only hope. I get it you hate the ot too cause obi wan was a coward

Yeah, you figured me out; I hate the OT. That's why I've gone as far as saying that SW was life-changing for me as a kid. I'm okay with us just having a different point of view and opinions. I hope you can be okay with that too.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Please read what i write before responding you glance over **** and just hit stupid talking point that have no bearing on the discusiion were having. You cant have your cake and eat it too if lukes portrayel in tfa a whole few seconds of screen time pisses you off then what yoda and obi wan did should too since its the same ****ing thing they did

 

[a-dev]

If we're going to follow the example of Obi-wan and Yoda then I don't know what people are complaining about with Luke in TLJ. He ends up being about as useful as Obi-wan in ANH. His force projection distraction being the stand-in for Obi-wan's duel with Darth Vader.

He doesn't give Rey much in the way of jedi training as Yoda gave him in ESB but clearly Rey doesn't even need it. Ghost Yoda says as much.

But what people were disappointed by in TLJ was that he wasn't shown dominating everyone in lightsaber combat, toppling AT-ATs and ripping Star Destroyers out of the sky using the force. Hey, I get that. But it wouldn't have been consistent with Obi-wan and Yoda. It would have begged the question even further - why the **** was he in hiding on that island in the first place? (again, JJ put him there) What the **** would he even need Rey for when seemingly, yes Dack, he could take on the entire Empire by himself.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

If we're going to follow the example of Obi-wan and Yoda then I don't know what people are complaining about with Luke in TLJ. He ends up being about as useful as Obi-wan in ANH. His force projection distraction being the stand-in for Obi-wan's duel with Darth Vader.

He doesn't give Rey much in the way of jedi training as Yoda gave him in ESB but clearly Rey doesn't even need it. Ghost Yoda says as much.

But what people were disappointed by in TLJ was that he wasn't shown dominating everyone in lightsaber combat, toppling AT-ATs and ripping Star Destroyers out of the sky using the force. Hey, I get that. But it wouldn't have been consistent with Obi-wan and Yoda. It would have begged the question ever further - why the **** was he in hiding on that island in the first place? What the **** did he need Rey for?

Obi wan never rejected the force, he also gladly took luke in to train him in it. He wanted him to be a jedi and defeat vader. Luke in tlj was just a jadded wierdo that was so out of line with his established character its wasnt even believable. I can see him hiding out waiting for the resistence a new jedi hope to find him but he was nothing like obi wan when that new hope finally did find him. Like yoda and obi wan he knew he couldnt defeat the snoke and kylo, mainly because he couldnt kill his nephew and that family attachent of being a son wasnt there. They had already demonstrated that kylo was willing to kill his father, luke sensed this in vader he could sense good in him in kylo there was nothing but darkness. Big difference between forcing a father to kill his only son and getting his nephew to see the light and not wanting to kill his uncle who he blamed for all of this. Rey was supposed to be the light that ignites luke back to action just like luke did for obi wan, but instead we got this crazy jadded luke that had nothing to do with what JJ had planned for his arc

 

[a-dev]

Obi wan never rejected the force, he also gladly took luke in to train him in it. He wanted him to be a jedi and defeat vader. Luke in tlj was just a jadded wierdo that was so out of line with his established character its wasnt even believable. I can see him hiding out waiting for the resistence a new jedi hope to find him but he was nothing like obi wan when that new hope finally did find him. Like yoda and obi wan he knew he couldnt defeat the snoke and kylo, mainly because he couldnt kill his nephew and that family attachent of being a son wasnt there. They had already demonstrated that kylo was willing to kill his father, luke sensed this in vader he could sense good in him in kylo there was nothing but darkness. Big difference between forcing a father to kill his only son and getting his nephew to see the light and not wanting to kill his uncle who he blamed for all of this. Rey was supposed to be the light that ignites luke back to action just like luke did for obi wan, but instead we got this crazy jadded luke that had nothing to do with what JJ had planned for his arc

You've highlighted one of the things I just don't like about TFA - Han and Leia's only child turning evil. Luke sensing nothing but darkness. How the did that happen? Just one kid, not one from 3 like in the old EU books - You'd think they'd be extra cautious about this sort of thing given the whole Darth Vader experience. But anyway happen it did - offscreen, books 'n stuff. *Han solo sarcastic smirk* oh, great.

As for Luke shutting himself off from the force - that was the only way to even come close to explaining how Luke Skywalker does not IMMEDIATELY, or indeed pre-emptively, jump to action regardless of some new hope coming along. Surely you can see that. So much of the talk has been about the betrayal of Luke's character, 'Luke wouldn't do this' 'Luke would do that' - well Luke would not have let Han Solo die if he could have helped it. Luke would not have allowed the FO to wipe out 5 planets if he could help it. If he knew this stuff was going to happen through visions of the future he would have immediately left that planet, Rey or no Rey. Perhaps the force doesn't give him advanced warning and, as with Obi-wan in ANH, he only senses it as a huge disturbance in the force as it actually happens. Perhaps this could have been why he looked so depressed when Rey found him at the end of TFA. Perhaps a very sad Luke could have immediately said 'what have I done...alright lets go get these bastards' - but my god that would have been depressing to see. Talk about too little too late.

I differ from ajp's line of argument in some areas - what Luke shutting himself off from the force doesn't adequately explain for me is A) how he could abandon his sister and friends in the first place. It's not like the First Order only came about later. He already knew about them (didn't he?) but he allowed them to run amok and left it for Leia to deal with on her own. But again - that's a problem originating in TFA.

and B) OK, lets say we accept that he shut himself off from the force which explains why he wasn't up to date on current events - but once he learns of Han's death and the obiteration of the Republic planetary system you'd think at that point he might realize that his strategy of taking himself out of the equation was not a good one and absolute calamity has transpired in his absence. That could certainly be seen as a Rian Johnson oversight.

All I'm saying is, the entire premise of this trilogy is whack. And JJ started it.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

But thats just it like obi wan couldnt kill anakin (he was hoping luke would kill him which is why lied to luke much like luke couldnt kill his nephew. What did you want luke to do storm the ship kill his nephew who he knew couldnt be saved or redeemed like his father. People would have freaked out its not his character. Completely different circumstances, first vader didnt think his kids Even existed he was told he killed his wife in rage. 2nd luke was actually saving leia more pain by hiding out, had he killed her son it would have been worse. No win situation, but in rey he had a chance to fix all of this but still chose to turn his back stay jaded on everyone thats all tlj . Tfa did nothing to break his character he was hiding out like his masters and there was a reason for that he couldnt kill his neohew he needed someone else to do it. They all hid like cowards but luke had a biger reason for doing so, he couldnt kill his his sisters son much like when obi wan told yoda send me to face the emperor i cannot kill anakin (and he didn't kill anakin nor luke his nephew no mater how many lives it may have saved)

 

[YoNoSe]

In broad strokes Luke can be seen as a Kenobi/Yoda role but they were in hiding out of necessity/protection. Luke had a naughty thought and ran away. That’s totally f’d. The fact that Rian Johnson invented the lamest force power in order to have an M. Night moment was insult to injury.

JJ did start it but according to Daisy Ridley, Simon Pegg, Colin Trevorrow there was a plan. RJ came in with his “I want to do the most interesting thing at every moment” method and completely disregarded what came before and added literally nothing for what would come after. The fact that Trevorrow quit & JJ returned (despite an unpleasant experience with KK the first time) makes it pretty easy to read between the lines.

 

[a-dev]

But thats just it like obi wan couldnt kill anakin (he was hoping luke would kill him which is why lied to luke much like luke couldnt kill his nephew. What did you want luke to do storm the ship kill his nephew who he knew couldnt be saved or redeemed like his father. People would have freaked out its not his character. Completely different circumstances, first vader didnt think his kids Even existed he was told he killed his wife in rage. 2nd luke was actually saving leia more pain by hiding out, had he killed her son it would have been worse. No win situation, but in rey he had a chance to fix all of this but still chose to turn his back stay jaded on everyone thats all tlj . Tfa did nothing to break his character he was hiding out like his masters and there was a reason for that he couldnt kill his neohew he needed someone else to do it. They all hid like cowards but luke had a biger reason for doing so, he couldnt kill his his sisters son much like when obi wan told yoda send me to face the emperor i cannot kill anakin (and he didn't kill anakin nor luke his nephew no mater how many lives it may have saved)

Who's to say he couldn't save Han AND avoid killing Kylo. A whole bunch of things could play out differently for all he knew. My point is that the Luke we think we know would have tried to prevent his friend's death had he known about it in advance but because this obviously didn't happen Rian Johnson had to come up with an explanation.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

He couldnt save kylo he killed his ****ing father and kylo hated him, blamed him for all of it rey was his only chance cause she had a bond with kylo. Bit rian still had him turn his back on everything ****. She even told luke she could turn him back. Nope ill just sit here and drink green titty milk and **** with local aliens. Then when he finaly decides to act its not even him some crazy force power that doesn't exist in lore

He couldnt prevent hans death kylo was truely lost much like anakin he would have had to kill him which would have brought han and leia even more pain

Again bi g differece in vaders arc then kylo. Vader was denied love kylo was not kylo choose to reject it he chose hate he wasnt decieved into it like vader was. He wasnt told he killed his family or in this case padme and his unborn kids

Vader turned to the darkside to save padme but ironically ended up killing her well or she just gave up and died whatever, kylo chose the darkness willingly and not out of love or to save anyone, he rejected love and loathed his parents

 

[ajp4mgs]

I differ from ajp's line of argument in some areas - what Luke shutting himself off from the force doesn't adequately explain for me is A) how he could abandon his sister and friends in the first place. It's not like the First Order only came about later. He already knew about them (didn't he?) but he allowed them to run amok and left it for Leia to deal with on her own. But again - that's a problem originating in TFA.

and B) OK, lets say we accept that he shut himself off from the force which explains why he wasn't up to date on current events - but once he learns of Han's death and the obiteration of the Republic planetary system you'd think at that point he might realize that his strategy of taking himself out of the equation was not a good one and absolute calamity has transpired in his absence. That could certainly be seen as a Rian Johnson oversight.

My explanations here can't adequately address your objections (I actually agree with your Point A, pretty much entirely), but here's my best shot at trying to at least play devil's advocate:

Your Point A: It could be that Luke felt as though continuing to participate in the fight as a Jedi would just continue the problem that he sought to stop by ending the whole Order. By leaving Leia to fight without him, it would be like an exaggerated version of when he said "I'm endangering the mission" in ROTJ. And he also left the group on Endor to fend for themselves against the Imperial troops (taking down the shield generator was already a dangerous enough mission without the help of a Jedi that it had been contextualized as "crazy" earlier in ROTJ). Maybe older Luke could've felt that if he participated as a Jedi, he'd only be making things worse in the big picture.

For Luke, exiling himself and cutting off from the Force was his answer (though a short-sighted one that Yoda corrected him about). If he first went to deal with the FO, and help Leia, it would amount to nothing more than Jedi intervention again. The same thing that kept failing to solve the problem of corruptive power from the dark side of the Force (powerful light, powerful darkness). This problem, as Luke mistakenly saw it, was Jedi using the Force as if it was their own personal aid for fighting wars, but ultimately they were being balanced out by dark-side equivalents. The only way to end that cycle was for him (the Last Jedi) to end it himself by exterminating the Jedi half of the equation.

Your Point B: Almost the same reasoning as above. If Luke goes in to be a Force-wielding Jedi after learning of Han's death, that would make him look like a bigger fool for changing his mind about the Jedi needing to end. If Luke didn't understand the danger Han (and others) would be facing when he decided to leave, he'd be a moron. Changing his mind because Han died would've just confirmed his lack of foresight. That moronic lack of fundamental foresight would not be a good look for Luke's character either.

I know that these rationalizations are going to be unconvincing, but that's the problem with the TFA setup for me: I think *any and all* explanations would fail to justify Luke's exile. He should've never taken himself out of the picture; it just doesn't add up. Where you and I differ most is that I thought TLJ came close enough to making it at least a plausible pro-active and selfless strategy from a pro-active and selfless character who wouldn't otherwise abandon everyone when times are about to get much worse in a hurry. But I'm in the distinct minority here, and I understand that.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Tfa didnt do anything but show luke for 2 minutes of screen time he didnt even ****ing speak but somehow tfa ruined him. He was hiding like all the jedi before him that failed you need a bit more than that to blame tfa for everything rian did lol... and its not a problem with tfa setup its a problem with TLJ and rian and his characterization of luke and how he handled everything jj set up for him. It was a big **** you.

Luke didnt abandon anyone in tfa lol there was a map to his location r2 was even programmed to wake up when he arrived or they were close to finding him, if he sidnt want to be found there would be no map that was rian retcon again he did all this he turned luke into that crazy jadded ****er not jj. He had luke throw his original lightsaber over his his head like it was a big ****ing joke, he had luke say the jedi must end, he had luke act like a ****ing wierdo that turned his back on everyone. Was there a map to yoda or obi wan in the OT no right why cause they truely didnt want to be found by anyone but luke or the next jedi. Luke did care about hos sister in tfa which is why they hard part of the map. All of lukes jedi in the academy were dead or turned into the knights of ren, like ben he was alone im not going to get into why he didnt just go kill kylo and snoke by himself and save the galaxy again cause i already explained that. He was waiting for the next hope to find him which is why he left part of the map with the resistence, Tlj luke would not have left a map he was a crazy **** that cared about noone but himself. You can argue all you want he didnt leave he map well if thats the case then there would be no map he wouldnt leave a ****ing trail like ben didnt

 

[YoNoSe]

Force powers Rian Johnson introduced:

Turn off the Force.

Talk to someone far away until you’re dead.