Captain America: Civil War (May 6, 2016)

[jye4ever]

Apart from the fact that First Avenger is a pretty averagely made movie, yes. MCU has gotten Cap totally right. And since he is really their marquee character (profits from Iron Man films to the side), that is pretty damn important.

Then you must hate the X-Men movies.

 

[jye4ever]

Am I the only one who can't call any of the Marvel films a trilogy lol I personally will never consider Cap or Iron Man a trilogy. They are anthologies though, they tie way to much into the Avengers films to think of their solo films independent from the Avengers films. Tony Stark in Iron Man 3 is a result of the Avengers, Civil War is a result from the two avengers films. I would actually like hear from someone that watched the three Cap movies without watching any other Marvel film. I feel like you would be pretty lost with the conflicts at hand lol

Oh I agree, really doesn't work as a standalone trilogy.

 

[Victοr]

Thanks for taking the time to drop the knowledge, darthkostis.
One of the best posts/rants I've read in awhile here.

What are you taking about , the comic went to a lot of places this movie was not willing to do for the sake of making it family friendly , it does not need to be an exact adaption yet I was looking for the same level of brutally and truth that people make hard choices without having to be manipulated in to making decisions. Playing dirty , back door deals that question a person's morals all that was missing. I was manipulated in to making this.

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What I'm talking about? What I'm talking about?

Look, I just broke down Civil War. I explored every avenue, showed scans, articles and provided links. I wrote down every single plot detail, and the movie is dang faithful to the comic. The only thing missing are the T-Bolts. That's your "dirty fighting". That and the first fight with Ragnarok where Cap activated the the EMP and got the drop on Tony. That's it. That's your whole argument. A missing scene and a bunch of C-List villains appearing for some panels.

Most of the stuff that went down in the comic are in the film. Death of innocents? Check. Super-Human Prison? Check. Big-Ass fight? Check. Personal fight between Cap and Tony? Check. The things that are missing are beyond Marvel's control, wouldn't have added anything to the plot other than convult it, and the thing most people talk about (Cap's Death) had nothing to do with CW. Or are you just gonna pretend that's not the case?

You have nothing to back up your claims, whereas I just provided everything. From the Kree-Skrull War, all the way to Bendis' New Avengers/Illuminati, to Skrull Pym, to Secret Invasion, to Dark Reign, to Captain America: Reborn. All you've is your own word, which disregards what's on the page, and a structure that tires the mind.

Cap died due to Brubaker wanting to tell the story of Bucky-Cap, the same guy who brought back Bucky, and started the whole thing. So if you want Cap to die, that should happen in Cap 4, with Skull, Fuastus, Zola and Sin as the villains. Not to mention that, if you want to be a purist, you need Osborn and Doom as well. But that part of the source material doesn't count, right?

 

[spindrift]

Oh I agree, really doesn't work as a standalone trilogy.

It can't- if you didn't see the Avengers films how do you know who 70% of the characters in CW are????

 

[jye4ever]

It can't- if you didn't see the Avengers films how do you know who 70% of the characters in CW are????

But it's really a moot point, everyone watches MCU movies.

So a trilogy it will be called.

 

[karamazov80]

Then you must hate the X-Men movies.

In that context, the major characters are Magneto and Professor X, and both are pretty spot on. So, same difference IMO.

As has been Jean Grey and Cyclops (though Cyclops wasn't given the same role he had in the comics obviously), as well as Beast. Wolvie has been neutered a bit in the comics over the years, and that's been appropriately reflected in the movies, though hopefully he'll go back to being the vicious little bastard when he gets recast. The other, more peripheral characters are hit and miss. I hope the new versions of Nightcrawler and Storm allow those characters to be better fleshed out, and for Nightcrawler in particular to have more comic-based qualities. He is a swashbuckling hero at heart, and really one of the more caring and decent characters in the history of Marvel comics. But he does have baggage from his history working for a circus and being a freak. His mopy-ness shouldn't be turned up to 11. He should use good humor and optimism to offset his freakishness that is off-putting to others.

 

[SoGS]

What I'm talking about? What I'm talking about?

Look, I just broke down Civil War. I explored every avenue, showed scans, articles and provided links. I wrote down every single plot detail, and the movie is dang faithful to the comic. The only thing missing are the T-Bolts. That's your "dirty fighting". That and the first fight with Ragnarok where Cap activated the the EMP and got the drop on Tony. That's it. That's your whole argument. A missing scene and a bunch of C-List villains appearing for some panels.

Most of the stuff that went down in the comic are in the film. Death of innocents? Check. Super-Human Prison? Check. Big-Ass fight? Check. Personal fight between Cap and Tony? Check. The things that are missing are beyond Marvel's control, wouldn't have added anything to the plot other than convult it, and the thing most people talk about (Cap's Death) had nothing to do with CW. Or are you just gonna pretend that's not the case?

You have nothing to back up your claims, whereas I just provided everything. From the Kree-Skrull War, all the way to Bendis' New Avengers/Illuminati, to Skrull Pym, to Secret Invasion, to Dark Reign, to Captain America: Reborn. All you've is your own word, which disregards what's on the page, and a structure that tires the mind.

Cap died due to Brubaker wanting to tell the story of Bucky-Cap, the same guy who brought back Bucky, and started the whole thing. So if you want Cap to die, that should happen in Cap 4, with Skull, Fuastus, Zola and Sin as the villains. Not to mention that, if you want to be a purist, you need Osborn and Doom as well. But that part of the source material doesn't count, right?

You've wasted enough time on this argument my friend. You've provided everything. There's always going to be the person who goes "yeah, but but but... (proceeds to ignore all your points)."

Let's recruit villains to add some teeth to this movie. Okay how about Loki? Oh wait he's supposed to be dead. Okay how about Iron Monger, Whiplash, or Aldridge Killian? Oh wait they're dead too. Red Skull? Malekith? Ronan? How about Yellow Jacket? What villains could have been used in this movie? How tacky would that actually be to see a team of villains that have never been shown on-screen suddenly appear in this movie. What a mess that would be.

Ant-Man trying to sabotage Iron Man's suit from the inside seems pretty "dirty" to me and serves the same purpose as Cap placing that device on Tony via handshake.

Would anyone really want to see "dirty" fighting involving cloning in this movie?

The comic event pulled from decades of Marvel comics. The movie could only pull from less than a decade of movies. I'm not trying to ride darthkostis tail coat but CW did a darn good job of fitting the source material into the MCU given the resources to pull from.

 

[pturtle]

In that context, the major characters are Magneto and Professor X, and both are pretty spot on. So, same difference IMO.

As has been Jean Grey and Cyclops (though Cyclops wasn't given the same role he had in the comics obviously), as well as Beast. Wolvie has been neutered a bit in the comics over the years, and that's been appropriately reflected in the movies, though hopefully he'll go back to being the vicious little bastard when he gets recast. The other, more peripheral characters are hit and miss. I hope the new versions of Nightcrawler and Storm allow those characters to be better fleshed out, and for Nightcrawler in particular to have more comic-based qualities. He is a swashbuckling hero at heart, and really one of the more caring and decent characters in the history of Marvel comics. But he does have baggage from his history working for a circus and being a freak. His mopy-ness shouldn't be turned up to 11. He should use good humor and optimism to offset his freakishness that is off-putting to others.

I feel like that's exactly how he was portrayed in X2. It's really a shame we might not see Alan Cumming in that role ever again.

 

[karamazov80]

I liked him in X2, but that was not how he came across at all to my eyes. He was like an abused puppy, looking for affection and support from everyone. But they gave him the gentle soul, which was great.

 

[NYallDay]

Watching it again as we speak, love this movie!


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[pturtle]

I liked him in X2, but that was not how he came across at all to my eyes. He was like an abused puppy, looking for affection and support from everyone. But they gave him the gentle soul, which was great.

I think earlier on in the movie he was like that when he was speaking with Storm but to me, the rest of the movie he was the comedy relief and was pretty damn heroic.

 

[daikkenaurora]

Watching it again as we speak, love this movie!


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So you're the a-hole on his phone during the movie. lol

 

[NYallDay]

So you're the a-hole on his phone during the movie. lol

I mean... I didn't say I was in the theater watching it [emoji12]

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Spoiler:

Man, this just shows you did not read the comics you're "quoting". So, as a comic fan:

1) The entirety of the Civil War began from Nitro detonating due to the carelessness of the New Warriors. They were filming a TV-Show, they rushed in and they lost. Nitro detonated and killed about 600 people. I don't see the difference between the catalyst being a school, and the catalyst being an international incident.

2) The villains in question were already established super-villains that Tony had been amassing alongside Zemo over at Thunderbolts. At the time, they had over 100 imprissoned villains, and only used the deadliest. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, Zemo was creating his "own" Thunderbolts Army in order to win against the Grandmaster, an Elder of the Universe.

3) The Prison in the Negative Zone was Project #42 from Richards' 100 Ideas Initiative. They were basically 100 Ideas that Richards, Stark and Pym came up with Post-Stanford, in order to make the world a better place. But with all of them being kinda nuts, and Hank Pym being a Skrull in disguise, they went overboard. After the CW had ended, it was left abandoned, and Blastaar took over, which led to Jack Flag joining the GotG.

4) The casualties you speak of were Black Goliath, Jack O'Lantern and the Jester. The former was killed by Ragnarok, a Thor clone which was created since Thor was dead at the time, fullfilling the prophecy of Ragnarok. He went haywire and killed him. The Jester, Jack O'Lantern and 2 other Z-List villains were killed by the Punisher during his rescue of Spider-Man and inside Cap's hideout. So, yeah, the only "major" death, was equilavent of "the black guy dies first". Yay... Afterwards, Herc smashed his head in.

5) The fight you all love to say "that was a war!" was still not as brutal, because people were still not really rying to kill each other. All the fights took place in mostly evacuated areas, and the last one, which took place in the city, was halted by Cap as soon as he saw that they were simply fighting just for the hell of it. If they were bloodlusted, he'd have just let Cloak and his team drop the other to their deaths. Not to mention that the final scene with Cap looking as he was gonna kill Tony was straight from the page.

Here, Sue Storm is in the opposite side of Reed, but as soon as he gets hurt, she rushes to save her husband. So no, she's not "bloodlusted".

These are all the heroes and villains. Wow, they have Solo, the Shroud, Tigra, Nightawk, etc, etc... I'm sure all of them played a huge part in the comic. Oh, wiat, they didn't! The major characters were Cap, Tony, Vision and the like! Huh, I never would've guessed...

6) Wanna know why Tony was so adamant about the SHRA? Because he and some of his buddies formed a club called "The Illuminati", which was there to "govern all affairs". Black Panther refused to join them, and he was damn right. He stayed out of the conflict and only, in the end, aided Cap.

Here's a nice read-up on Reed, Hank and Tony: https://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/01/04/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-so-why-did-reed-richards-support-the-superhuman-registration-act/

6.5) Still on the Illuminati, these boys went to the Skrull homeworld, wrecked **** up and warned them never to try and invade the Earth again. So, what do the Skrulls do? Abduct Pym, replace him and put him there as a sleeper. His job? Try and divide the Avengers from the inside, hence why "Hank" was so supportive of the SHRA. Thus, CW paved the way for Secret Invasion.

7) And here we come to the biggest "issue", Cap's Death. Newsflash: Cap didn't die in CW. He died in Fallen Son. Cap didn't die because of the events of Civil War, he died because of the Red Skull and Faustus. That info aside, plans for Cap's death were already in stone, as Brubaker wanted to write Bucky-Cap. CW was just the perfect time. And besides, Cap didn't "die", he got stuck in a space-bullet. The whole deal involved Lukin, Red Skull, Faustus and even Burnside.

So yeah, here's your precious source material. To translate Civil War correctly, you need:

1) The New Warriors (Nitro can just be a minor, newly introduced villain)
2) The F4 and Negative Zone
3) The Illuminati and the Skrulls
4) Red Skull, Faustus, Doom and the Osborn administration
5) Zemo, his Moonstones and his amry, plus the Elders of the Universe
6) Ragnarok, the event and the clone
7) More minor, D-List characters

Wait, you mean these things don't exist in the MCU? Well, I never would have guessed. But here's my view:

-Stanford = Lagos
-New Warriors = Wanda
-Nitro = Crossbones
-Prison 42 = Raft
-Red Skull/Faustus/Skrulls/outside force which made the war inevitable = Zemo
-Villains = Spider-Man (person/people brought over to turn the tide)

It's not a perfect adaptation you say? Of course it's bloody noy, cause otherwise you'd need 20 damn years of the MCU an God knows how many damn movies. Now, you'll say "they could keep some stuff", which would then bring us to "they're changing stuff". Honest truth? The movie is damn faithful to the comic.

There. You know how sick and ****ing tired I am of "comic book purists" saying they didn't follow the source material, pretending that just remembering Cap on the stairs counts? Here's your gosh-darn source material. You want that? You want all this convulted storyline with branches everywhere? Be my guest. But do not tell me that there's no "resemblance" to the comic.

Just admit that you wanted Cap to die. Well, tough luck, the protagonists never die, be it comics or movies. Guess we should campaign for Batman to die in JL ala Final Crisis and have him return through time as Batman-Pirate, Batman-Cabeman and Batman-Knight... Either, boom, here are your scans, here's your source material, here's everything!

Spoiler:

I see darthkostis is blowing people away with his comic knowledge

Spoiler:

What I'm talking about? What I'm talking about?

Look, I just broke down Civil War. I explored every avenue, showed scans, articles and provided links. I wrote down every single plot detail, and the movie is dang faithful to the comic. The only thing missing are the T-Bolts. That's your "dirty fighting". That and the first fight with Ragnarok where Cap activated the the EMP and got the drop on Tony. That's it. That's your whole argument. A missing scene and a bunch of C-List villains appearing for some panels.

Most of the stuff that went down in the comic are in the film. Death of innocents? Check. Super-Human Prison? Check. Big-Ass fight? Check. Personal fight between Cap and Tony? Check. The things that are missing are beyond Marvel's control, wouldn't have added anything to the plot other than convult it, and the thing most people talk about (Cap's Death) had nothing to do with CW. Or are you just gonna pretend that's not the case?

You have nothing to back up your claims, whereas I just provided everything. From the Kree-Skrull War, all the way to Bendis' New Avengers/Illuminati, to Skrull Pym, to Secret Invasion, to Dark Reign, to Captain America: Reborn. All you've is your own word, which disregards what's on the page, and a structure that tires the mind.

Cap died due to Brubaker wanting to tell the story of Bucky-Cap, the same guy who brought back Bucky, and started the whole thing. So if you want Cap to die, that should happen in Cap 4, with Skull, Fuastus, Zola and Sin as the villains. Not to mention that, if you want to be a purist, you need Osborn and Doom as well. But that part of the source material doesn't count, right?

Spoiler:

Just another day in the office for darthkostis.

 

[Victοr]

You've wasted enough time on this argument my friend. You've provided everything. There's always going to be the person who goes "yeah, but but but... (proceeds to ignore all your points)."

Let's recruit villains to add some teeth to this movie. Okay how about Loki? Oh wait he's supposed to be dead. Okay how about Iron Monger, Whiplash, or Aldridge Killian? Oh wait they're dead too. Red Skull? Malekith? Ronan? How about Yellow Jacket? What villains could have been used in this movie? How tacky would that actually be to see a team of villains that have never been shown on-screen suddenly appear in this movie. What a mess that would be.

Ant-Man trying to sabotage Iron Man's suit from the inside seems pretty "dirty" to me and serves the same purpose as Cap placing that device on Tony via handshake.

Would anyone really want to see "dirty" fighting involving cloning in this movie?

The comic event pulled from decades of Marvel comics. The movie could only pull from less than a decade of movies. I'm not trying to ride darthkostis tail coat but CW did a darn good job of fitting the source material into the MCU given the resources to pull from.

I know it's fruitless, but it just pisses me off when folks ramble on and on, and when confronted with facts they just ignore it and keep on singing their tune. This isn't subjective like, say, liking a movie or not, this has a straight, clear cut answer, and that was it. Do I need to go and pull my whole Civil War/Dark Reign/Siege/Brubaker Cap files and post them here?!

 

[Victοr]

I see darthkostis is blowing people away with his comic knowledge

Just another day in the office for darthkostis.

What can I say? It's what I do.

 

[karamazov80]

I think earlier on in the movie he was like that when he was speaking with Storm but to me, the rest of the movie he was the comedy relief and was pretty damn heroic.

Well all the good guys are heroic. It's the type of heroism that distinguishes him in the comic world. He was not the carefree, Errol Flynn-type. He cracked a few jokes here or there, but it wasn't the same. When he talks with Mystique, it's still more of the same from his earlier scene with Storm. Mousy and cautious with low self-esteem.

 

[daikkenaurora]

I mean... I didn't say I was in the theater watching it [emoji12]

So you bought a copy of it for your own home use? That most have cost you a fortune. lol

 

[NYallDay]

So you bought a copy of it for your own home use? That most have cost you a fortune. lol

Internet. A beautiful thing [emoji16]. I can give you the link if you would like?

 

[SoGS]

And to comment on the "no one died" argument. Rhodey's fall essentially symbolized Goliath's death. It was the moment that the conflict shifted from a disagreement among friends to a war with real, life-changing consequences.

If the same point can be proved without having to off a character, why kill him?

I've seen people on here call it toothless. I'd say "killing" a character that NO ONE believes is dead is even more toothless. Almost as if to say, "ohh yeah, we took the movie there, deep stuff huh?" but everyone KNOWS you have the emergency chute ready to deploy. Superman's "death" and American Sniper funeral ending was a "oh brother, give me a break" moment for me that was just there so they could say they were faithful to the comic.