DarkArtist81
Super Freak
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Awesome news... And so the speculation officially begins.
Awesome news... And so the speculation officially begins.
The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***
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scubasteve
Super Freak
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
In this third movie, Bale will be fighting the guy who made Gordon TRASH HIS ^^^^ING LIGHT (aka the Bat signal) at the end of TDK.
In this third movie, Bale will be fighting the guy who made Gordon TRASH HIS ^^^^ING LIGHT (aka the Bat signal) at the end of TDK.
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
I think the fairly safe assumptions are:
1) At least 1 'A' list well known villain. Gotta follow Joker and Two Face with someone strong.
2) More than 1 rogue gallery villain. The other 2 flicks intro'd 2 villains (that Zsasz cameo doesn't count) surely the third would follow the same if not include a third villain.
3) Someone to fill the void in the mob.
Based upon the previous acknowledgment that they were thinking about including Black Mask in the mob meeting in TDK, I'd bet on him for the third pic. As for the main villain, I'd guess Riddler with Edward Nygma as an alias and not his real name. He could be a threat to both the Bruce and Batman persona, esp if he learns his secret identity, as well as a threat to all of Gotham. Also his riddles and clues would be a natural plot device and chance to write some more mystery and depth in the story as well as a test of Batman's mettle like Joker and Ras both tested him. Plus Batman could actually detect something. My second guess would be Catwoman and I suppose there's no reason they couldn't do all three in some fashion so long as they maintain focus on 2 of them with the third as a side or background player.
I think the fairly safe assumptions are:
1) At least 1 'A' list well known villain. Gotta follow Joker and Two Face with someone strong.
2) More than 1 rogue gallery villain. The other 2 flicks intro'd 2 villains (that Zsasz cameo doesn't count) surely the third would follow the same if not include a third villain.
3) Someone to fill the void in the mob.
Based upon the previous acknowledgment that they were thinking about including Black Mask in the mob meeting in TDK, I'd bet on him for the third pic. As for the main villain, I'd guess Riddler with Edward Nygma as an alias and not his real name. He could be a threat to both the Bruce and Batman persona, esp if he learns his secret identity, as well as a threat to all of Gotham. Also his riddles and clues would be a natural plot device and chance to write some more mystery and depth in the story as well as a test of Batman's mettle like Joker and Ras both tested him. Plus Batman could actually detect something. My second guess would be Catwoman and I suppose there's no reason they couldn't do all three in some fashion so long as they maintain focus on 2 of them with the third as a side or background player.
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Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Indeed good news, but too early for me to get into speculating. From what I gather, the already broad spectrum of characters I knew of is but a small piece of the comic lore, so the possibilities are almost limitless. I'll have fun speculating when there's confirmation of characters and story at least, then we can talk about who might play them and what the plot might be and have a lot of fun.
Awesome news... And so the speculation officially begins.
Indeed good news, but too early for me to get into speculating. From what I gather, the already broad spectrum of characters I knew of is but a small piece of the comic lore, so the possibilities are almost limitless. I'll have fun speculating when there's confirmation of characters and story at least, then we can talk about who might play them and what the plot might be and have a lot of fun.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
If Nolan is only doing this third installment and then that will be it for him, then the Joker MUST escape Arkham and threaten everything that Batman cares about.
I don't care if Ledger died, the Joker did not.
If Nolan is only doing this third installment and then that will be it for him, then the Joker MUST escape Arkham and threaten everything that Batman cares about.
I don't care if Ledger died, the Joker did not.
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
I think the way Nolan presented Joker makes him too extreme to really have always on the loose and threatening Batman.
Granted, I'm not familiar with Batman comics, but from the old animated series, there were always breaks where other villains would rise up and others would take a back seat, like they were plotting out their next caper. Nolan's Joker is a relentless force, he can't just always be out there for Batman to deal with, if Batman never won and incarcerated him for at least a number of years, Gotham would just be a ^^^^ hole and Batman would be useless, and his personality is not the kind to sit back and plan, he just does thing without pausing.
Joker should be nothing more than a brief mention in the 3rd film. In Nolan's world, the concept should be that there is always someone for Batman to deal with. I think that's how you bring about the redemption of Batman in the public eye, Gotham has to realize it's just a messed up world, Batman or no Batman there will always be these guys rising to power and causing chaos and they need Batman, no longer will they see him as the cause of their suffering but as their salvation from it.
I think the way Nolan presented Joker makes him too extreme to really have always on the loose and threatening Batman.
Granted, I'm not familiar with Batman comics, but from the old animated series, there were always breaks where other villains would rise up and others would take a back seat, like they were plotting out their next caper. Nolan's Joker is a relentless force, he can't just always be out there for Batman to deal with, if Batman never won and incarcerated him for at least a number of years, Gotham would just be a ^^^^ hole and Batman would be useless, and his personality is not the kind to sit back and plan, he just does thing without pausing.
Joker should be nothing more than a brief mention in the 3rd film. In Nolan's world, the concept should be that there is always someone for Batman to deal with. I think that's how you bring about the redemption of Batman in the public eye, Gotham has to realize it's just a messed up world, Batman or no Batman there will always be these guys rising to power and causing chaos and they need Batman, no longer will they see him as the cause of their suffering but as their salvation from it.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
If Nolan is only doing one more then he doesn't need to pull out more villains like the animated series did. they had to fill a series worth of episodes. The Joker was always the main antagonist and i would think that had Ledger not died, he would have already been planned on for the next film. That's no reason the character cannot return to finish what he started in TDK. And, there's plenty of time to find the right actor to fill the role. Extracting too many villains from the comics is what helped kill the first run of batman films. A way too flamboyent two-face, a ridiculus riddler, Arnold as Freeze!! And the way Poison Ivy was played? Puh-Leez!!!
If Nolan is only doing one more then he doesn't need to pull out more villains like the animated series did. they had to fill a series worth of episodes. The Joker was always the main antagonist and i would think that had Ledger not died, he would have already been planned on for the next film. That's no reason the character cannot return to finish what he started in TDK. And, there's plenty of time to find the right actor to fill the role. Extracting too many villains from the comics is what helped kill the first run of batman films. A way too flamboyent two-face, a ridiculus riddler, Arnold as Freeze!! And the way Poison Ivy was played? Puh-Leez!!!
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
He doesn't have to use a new villain, but I'd like him to, especially if it's to be the Nolan Trilogy.
Nolan's style is the best Batman representation we've gotten on film, to me, and I'd like to be able to see other villains captures in his style before it's over. There's nothing wrong with using the plethora of characters from the Batman world as long as they're handled in a proper manner. Schumacher went campy with his villains and it hurt. Every villain he used, if portrayed right, could be something fantastic to behold, just look at Nolan's Two-Face versus Schumachers (and I won't blame TLJ for anything other than taking on the role, how it was written isn't his fault). Even if Ledger were alive, I think it's better to move on from a Joker focus, it'll make for a more interesting trilogy. Nolan's story just doesn't feel fitting for 2/3 of it to be focused on Batman and one villain.
He doesn't have to use a new villain, but I'd like him to, especially if it's to be the Nolan Trilogy.
Nolan's style is the best Batman representation we've gotten on film, to me, and I'd like to be able to see other villains captures in his style before it's over. There's nothing wrong with using the plethora of characters from the Batman world as long as they're handled in a proper manner. Schumacher went campy with his villains and it hurt. Every villain he used, if portrayed right, could be something fantastic to behold, just look at Nolan's Two-Face versus Schumachers (and I won't blame TLJ for anything other than taking on the role, how it was written isn't his fault). Even if Ledger were alive, I think it's better to move on from a Joker focus, it'll make for a more interesting trilogy. Nolan's story just doesn't feel fitting for 2/3 of it to be focused on Batman and one villain.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Nolan has definitely made the most "believeable" batman so far. And, he could easily introduce a new real world villain and still have the joker coming into to screw everything up for him. That is what the Joker excels in. Any way he goes you know its gonna rock!!
Nolan has definitely made the most "believeable" batman so far. And, he could easily introduce a new real world villain and still have the joker coming into to screw everything up for him. That is what the Joker excels in. Any way he goes you know its gonna rock!!
DarkArtist81
Super Freak
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
I kinda agree with you both...
The Joker has always been the main villain for Batman, the ultimate opposite to his belief structure. So I would think he would have a hand in the third film, if not only by spreading madness to others and inspiring other baddies to do what he does. He always was that way in the comics, where even from Arkham he was a force to be reckoned with. Arkham only held the Joker because HE wanted to be held. So it would be nice to see him in the third, if only for a bit. But I feel like he is the catalyst to Gotham being filled with crazy bastards.
But I also want to see more villains with the Nolan touch, and am scared to see another actor tackle the Ledger Joker role.... So I am torn.
I kinda agree with you both...
The Joker has always been the main villain for Batman, the ultimate opposite to his belief structure. So I would think he would have a hand in the third film, if not only by spreading madness to others and inspiring other baddies to do what he does. He always was that way in the comics, where even from Arkham he was a force to be reckoned with. Arkham only held the Joker because HE wanted to be held. So it would be nice to see him in the third, if only for a bit. But I feel like he is the catalyst to Gotham being filled with crazy bastards.
But I also want to see more villains with the Nolan touch, and am scared to see another actor tackle the Ledger Joker role.... So I am torn.
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Absolutely, in Nolan I trust. His stance on the Batman films gives me utter confidence in any movie he makes for it. The fact that he won't move forward with one without feeling very confident in the story is a great comfort, and since I like his stories, I know that this 3rd one will be fitting to his vision and not dissappoint. I imagine partly because of the fight to get someone to play him, they may just allude to the Joker but not have him as a presence, I imagine a lot of actors would be gun shy to take over the role. It's not like Nicholson and Ledger being Joker as they're from two different series and two different takes on the character, but a new actor would be continue the Joker as Ledger set him up, and the public would really scrutinize that guy and it could hurt Nolan's credit with folks and the actors if people aren't happy, they'll shout things like you're no Ledger or yell at Nolan, how could you replace Ledger. Way too much pressure on actor and director to make a portrayal as satisfying to the public as what Heath did. Not to say another actor couldn't do it, but the way the public is, even if another actor equalled or excelled Ledger's performance, if the mob doesn't like it, they'll let it be known. Best route is to leave Joker in Nolan's films as a great performance from a gifted actor and move on, that way fans are happy it was left as Heath's character, and Nolan can feel free to make whatever movie he wants and not have any more pressure than he already feels from TDK's success.
Absolutely, in Nolan I trust. His stance on the Batman films gives me utter confidence in any movie he makes for it. The fact that he won't move forward with one without feeling very confident in the story is a great comfort, and since I like his stories, I know that this 3rd one will be fitting to his vision and not dissappoint. I imagine partly because of the fight to get someone to play him, they may just allude to the Joker but not have him as a presence, I imagine a lot of actors would be gun shy to take over the role. It's not like Nicholson and Ledger being Joker as they're from two different series and two different takes on the character, but a new actor would be continue the Joker as Ledger set him up, and the public would really scrutinize that guy and it could hurt Nolan's credit with folks and the actors if people aren't happy, they'll shout things like you're no Ledger or yell at Nolan, how could you replace Ledger. Way too much pressure on actor and director to make a portrayal as satisfying to the public as what Heath did. Not to say another actor couldn't do it, but the way the public is, even if another actor equalled or excelled Ledger's performance, if the mob doesn't like it, they'll let it be known. Best route is to leave Joker in Nolan's films as a great performance from a gifted actor and move on, that way fans are happy it was left as Heath's character, and Nolan can feel free to make whatever movie he wants and not have any more pressure than he already feels from TDK's success.
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Good points Josh. My only fear is, I can't see this Joker being a back seat guy, so even if he's also instigating, like with Two-Face, he'll also be doing his own ^^^^, and Batman struggled just to face Joker in TDK, if you add other nuts on top of it, it would just seem impossible for Batman alone to combat it and would lose. Again, I'm not familiar with the comics, but from past viewings of Joker, he seems like he's a mix of Ledger's chaotic portrayal and a more calculating person, but Nolan made Joker not a schemer, just a doer (though contradicted by what seemed like elaborate schemes). He's like a super virus just eating away at everything in his path if not contained. I suppose one way to deal with it would be writing that his time incarcerated molds him to really hate Batman and develop a personality to plot and scheme and be more methodical in his actions.
I kinda agree with you both...
The Joker has always been the main villain for Batman, the ultimate opposite to his belief structure. So I would think he would have a hand in the third film, if not only by spreading madness to others and inspiring other baddies to do what he does. He always was that way in the comics, where even from Arkham he was a force to be reckoned with. Arkham only held the Joker because HE wanted to be held. So it would be nice to see him in the third, if only for a bit. But I feel like he is the catalyst to Gotham being filled with crazy bastards.
But I also want to see more villains with the Nolan touch, and am scared to see another actor tackle the Ledger Joker role.... So I am torn.
Good points Josh. My only fear is, I can't see this Joker being a back seat guy, so even if he's also instigating, like with Two-Face, he'll also be doing his own ^^^^, and Batman struggled just to face Joker in TDK, if you add other nuts on top of it, it would just seem impossible for Batman alone to combat it and would lose. Again, I'm not familiar with the comics, but from past viewings of Joker, he seems like he's a mix of Ledger's chaotic portrayal and a more calculating person, but Nolan made Joker not a schemer, just a doer (though contradicted by what seemed like elaborate schemes). He's like a super virus just eating away at everything in his path if not contained. I suppose one way to deal with it would be writing that his time incarcerated molds him to really hate Batman and develop a personality to plot and scheme and be more methodical in his actions.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
To shelf a character as film worthy of Joker because of the actor's stupidity/death would not be right. Yes, another would be measured to Ledger, but it is called "acting" for a reason. To fill that role should be something an actor would relish the thought of.
To shelf a character as film worthy of Joker because of the actor's stupidity/death would not be right. Yes, another would be measured to Ledger, but it is called "acting" for a reason. To fill that role should be something an actor would relish the thought of.
Hulksmashed
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Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
I agree that the Joker character can't be shelfed simply because of the death of an actor that protrayed him. That being said, while his presence may be felt in the third film, I highly doubt that we will SEE Joker in another Nolan film for a few reasons:
1. The spin will be that its out of respect for Ledger's "untouchable" performance and tragic death
2. The main reason being the wild card factor. With the success of the first two movies its dangerous to throw another actor into a role that was so important to the film. The Nolan Joker has been established, and no one else will be the SAME joker as Ledger. Doesnt matter if they are just as good or even better. A change to Joker's character in series of movies leads to an inconsistent feel and could make fans cringe. Just not worth the risk of alienating a fan base.
3. Fear of the Lex Luthor syndrom. Lex is definately Superman's main baddy. He has been portrayed as such in every Superman film to date and people are sick of it. At first it was expected, but soon it became obligatory and easy. While comic books are ongoing and infinate, movies are usually limited to a max of 5 or 6. No need to recycle villians. Especially with Batman, who's rogues gallary is rivaled only by that of Spider-Man in number and intrique!
I agree that the Joker character can't be shelfed simply because of the death of an actor that protrayed him. That being said, while his presence may be felt in the third film, I highly doubt that we will SEE Joker in another Nolan film for a few reasons:
1. The spin will be that its out of respect for Ledger's "untouchable" performance and tragic death
2. The main reason being the wild card factor. With the success of the first two movies its dangerous to throw another actor into a role that was so important to the film. The Nolan Joker has been established, and no one else will be the SAME joker as Ledger. Doesnt matter if they are just as good or even better. A change to Joker's character in series of movies leads to an inconsistent feel and could make fans cringe. Just not worth the risk of alienating a fan base.
3. Fear of the Lex Luthor syndrom. Lex is definately Superman's main baddy. He has been portrayed as such in every Superman film to date and people are sick of it. At first it was expected, but soon it became obligatory and easy. While comic books are ongoing and infinate, movies are usually limited to a max of 5 or 6. No need to recycle villians. Especially with Batman, who's rogues gallary is rivaled only by that of Spider-Man in number and intrique!
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Your reasoning is valid but (in number order):
1- No actor's performance is untouchable and screw Ledger for being so careless and stupid in the first place.
2- As I said, it's called "acting" for that very reason. And the Joker is a guy in makeup. That's easily replicated. All it would take is an actor to act like Ledger doing the Joker. Would there be comparisons? Surely. But there are those with any remake, reimagining or recasting. Its part of Hollywood.
3- Not necessarily a recycle of the Joker, but a continuation of him thru the third film. And with Nolan at the helm I don't think he would get as campy/cheesy as Hackman did as Luthor in the Reeve Superman flicks.
Joker could easily inspire a whole new threat of baddies in his "United Underworld".
Your reasoning is valid but (in number order):
1- No actor's performance is untouchable and screw Ledger for being so careless and stupid in the first place.
2- As I said, it's called "acting" for that very reason. And the Joker is a guy in makeup. That's easily replicated. All it would take is an actor to act like Ledger doing the Joker. Would there be comparisons? Surely. But there are those with any remake, reimagining or recasting. Its part of Hollywood.
3- Not necessarily a recycle of the Joker, but a continuation of him thru the third film. And with Nolan at the helm I don't think he would get as campy/cheesy as Hackman did as Luthor in the Reeve Superman flicks.
Joker could easily inspire a whole new threat of baddies in his "United Underworld".
Deckard
Super Freak
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
I'd like to see Carmine Falcone come back. It'd be easy to do, Dr. Crane was the one who put Falcone is Arkham, now Crane is himself in Arkham, and Crane assaulted Falcone with Fear Toxin while Carmine was in custody.
His lawyes can argue that to get him released and with the lack of Dent to put a stop to it Falcone gets out. Then you work the Catwoman wants revenge on Falcone angle, add the Riddler and Harvey Bullock and it'd be solid.
I'd like to see Carmine Falcone come back. It'd be easy to do, Dr. Crane was the one who put Falcone is Arkham, now Crane is himself in Arkham, and Crane assaulted Falcone with Fear Toxin while Carmine was in custody.
His lawyes can argue that to get him released and with the lack of Dent to put a stop to it Falcone gets out. Then you work the Catwoman wants revenge on Falcone angle, add the Riddler and Harvey Bullock and it'd be solid.
The Mike
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Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
The Joker is Batman's Nemesis but by far not the only villain to pose a threat. I don't want to see Joker 2.0 and that has nothing to do with Ledger. Batman has created his rogue, he being the beacon of hope for the city of Gotham created the polar opposite in the criminals needing a flare for the theatrical. The Joker was the first sign of that but it shouldn't and doesn't stop there. Like taking the lid off of a can of paint, one drop doesn't just get out but it starts slowing moving and rushing out and therefore we should probably see on major villain from the Rogue Gallery and a couple of small villains maybe even as cameos to show the impact that Batman has had. They did a great piece in the Comics about 10 years ago about how Batman was responsible for his villians to be as showy as they are. Having Joker be the only one running around negates that completely.
I wouldn't mind if we saw a Joker cameo, maybe in the cell next to the villain at Arkham rocking back and forth but we only got a back profile and when shouted at we got the Ledger voiceover track laughing or saying "Why So Serious" but I definitely want NEW villains.
The Joker is Batman's Nemesis but by far not the only villain to pose a threat. I don't want to see Joker 2.0 and that has nothing to do with Ledger. Batman has created his rogue, he being the beacon of hope for the city of Gotham created the polar opposite in the criminals needing a flare for the theatrical. The Joker was the first sign of that but it shouldn't and doesn't stop there. Like taking the lid off of a can of paint, one drop doesn't just get out but it starts slowing moving and rushing out and therefore we should probably see on major villain from the Rogue Gallery and a couple of small villains maybe even as cameos to show the impact that Batman has had. They did a great piece in the Comics about 10 years ago about how Batman was responsible for his villians to be as showy as they are. Having Joker be the only one running around negates that completely.
I wouldn't mind if we saw a Joker cameo, maybe in the cell next to the villain at Arkham rocking back and forth but we only got a back profile and when shouted at we got the Ledger voiceover track laughing or saying "Why So Serious" but I definitely want NEW villains.
Ironman1188
SO BE IT
Re: Batman/Dark Knight 3rd Film
Having Joker in a dimly lit cell, with reused ledger voiceovers would be far worse than recastingthe role. The Joker story was left dangling (pardon the pun) in TDK and there was no true closure between the two. Now, also, Batman is thought to be a killer, a villain and on the run, something Joker would definitely get a kick out of.
I was with you up til the Then you work the Catwoman wants revenge on Falcone angle, add the Riddler and Harvey Bullock and it'd be solid. Falcone comes back to run the mob, Joker escapes Arkham to take out Falcone and Batman too of course, all the while we see the lesser of the rogue's gallery starting up, inspired by the joker's actions.
Having Joker in a dimly lit cell, with reused ledger voiceovers would be far worse than recastingthe role. The Joker story was left dangling (pardon the pun) in TDK and there was no true closure between the two. Now, also, Batman is thought to be a killer, a villain and on the run, something Joker would definitely get a kick out of.
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