Hot Toys TF Exclusive BvS Armored Batman (Battle Damaged Version)

[Alatar]

Nice analysis.

To put it succinctly: he realized that he’s become that same guy (or no different than that guy) that murdered his parents in cold blood in that dark alley all those years ago. Which is why I think it would have added so much weight to that scene is if when it showed the scene of his parents’ murder replaying in his head, when it showed the murderer’s face, it showed Bruce’s face instead as being the face of the murderer.

When he then delivered the line, “I’ll make you a promise, Martha won’t die tonight,” you just knew that the best cinematic Batman fight scene was going to ensue and that he was going to start dropping some bodies.

Yep, definitely! And when he says that line, it also isn't like they're suddenly 'Super Friends' either as some fans snicker. Imo Batman says that in genuine deep gratitude because Superman has just given him a valuable gift of insight into himself.

In my own head canon I choose to interpret that scene such that Superman says "Martha" intentionally, and he does it precisely in order to elicit the reaction that it has in Bruce.

At any point Superman could easily have killed Batman. Even with the Kryptonite gas grenades after Superman had recovered the first time he could have momentarily retreated and reemerged to dispatch Bats six ways to Sunday. Superman grants Batman the opportunity to kill him--and almost does get killed by Batman--in order to get through to him the only way that will actually work: emotionally and psychologically.

Anyway, by risking his own life and nudging Bruce into making that epiphany Superman actually saves his soul, as it were.

How did Superman know about their mothers sharing the same first name? Clark is an investigative reporter! He would have researched Bruce Wayne intensively after what he witnessed of Bruce at Lex's charity ball. And as Superman all he would have to do is listen to Bruce at a distance with his super hearing for about a day. He obviously knows Batman is Bruce because he calls out to him by name before the fight. I don't think that is solely because of what Lex says to Superman on the helipad. I think he's known probably since he showed up to toe tap the Batmobile and warn Bruce off the "the Bat is dead."

I'll bet in the hour of footage in the assembly cut that we haven't seen there is a scene of Clark reading about the Thomas and Martha Wayne murders, which takes place shortly after the charity ball.

 

[SilverStar17]

The “Martha” scene never bothered me because even on first viewing, I knew the deeper intent behind it, and it wasn’t supposed to be that they’re now best friends because their mothers share the same name. However, I did feel that it was a bit forced in because the emphasized buzz word was supposed to be “Martha” based on the scene of Thomas Wayne turning to her and saying “Martha,” so I felt they kind of forced Superman to call his own mother by her first name, which I felt was a bit unnatural.

That’s a good point you raised though, that it’s not unreasonable to speculate that Superman did indeed say that intentionally and was actually referring to Martha Wayne because he did know Bruce’s mother’s name, hoping it would snap Batman out of it, while still indirectly referring to his own mother as well obviously. Perhaps he knew this through of course his enhanced hearing, or from his extensive investigating of Bruce/Batman and at some point likely reading about his parents’ murder (in fact, at one point, didn’t it show a brief scene of him reading some article that had a picture of Wayne Manor if I’m not mistaken?). I’d be inclined to presume it’s through the latter, which is why he knew that “save Martha” would likely resonate with him.

 

[Beckinsale]

Entering the subject, it is curious how the scene "Martha" still brings doubts to some people, I always had the same thought that the friends here put, Clark says "Martha" and not mother, intentionally. In the film shows that Clark is investigating Batman, so after the event of Lex, that he realizes that Bruce is Batman, I believe he investigates Bruce's life as well. That's why at that moment he says very emphatically the name Martha and asked Batman to "save Martha," he uses it as a "trigger warning" in Bruce, and I think by the time Superman hears Batman say, "I'll bet that Your parents taught you that you mean something, that you are here for a reason My parents taught me a different lesson, dying in the gutter for no reason at all ... They taught me that the world only makes sense if you force". He he realizes the trauma that Bruce still carries with his parents' death, and how it still affects him, even after many years, it is at this point that he notices the vulnerable point of Batman / Bruce, and uses the "trigger warning".

 

[SilverStar17]

Yep. I’m pretty certain it was intended to be intentionally said.

 

[Alatar]

I think the film might even intentionally leave it open to interpretation that Superman says "Martha" deliberately, and does so for the reasons we've been detailing. Like have it intentionally be a question. Maybe he says it intentionally, maybe he doesn't. It's meant to be open-ended and the viewer makes the choice. It forces you to participate by deciding.

Audiences struggle with this sort of thing because they want storytelling to be neat, tidy, linear and of course to provide a sense of closure. But in real life, in the real world, the reality of a complex situation often doesn't show itself readily and easily. Usually if we're totally honest it's messy and hard to make sense of. It is at least most often not black-and-white and clear cut. In fact when faced with any challenging situation we're usually forced to infer, surmise, intuit, interpret, make a best guess, and ultimately roll the dice without having all the data available that ideally we wish we had. (To follow our gut and ultimately take a leap of faith as the priest says in MoS.)

So this is the sort of postmodern realism that Snyder brings to superhero mythology in MoS, BvS, and presumably in his own cut of JL (and the original planned five film arc, i.e., with two more JL films to follow). BvS is a collision of postmodernism and traditional superhero mythology. In the real world unfortunately we cannot innocently take at face value what society tells us is 'the best within us', which audiences uncritically accept in earlier film and television versions. Especially the Donner/Reeves version. But ideally, each individual should think independently and freely to sort that out for him or herself. And that's what we see both Superman and Batman doing in BvS, actually. Neither follow the herd, or the collective social hive mind.

Anyway, I don't care if it's just my own head canon but I view the film this way. And when I think of it this way it rivals the best work of Stanley Kubrick. Haters would scoff at that but whatever.

 

[hottoyskyle]

What I didn’t like about BVS wasn’t the Martha scene, it was when Superman after he throws the sewer grate at the two weapons that Batman set up he walks over and is like “ you don’t understand” and Batman goes “I understand” and Superman just pushes him and sends him flying. It’s like dude of course Batman is t going to listen to you now you threw him like a rag doll then you walk over to him again and pick him up through a building and smash him on his signal?? That scene was out of Superman’s character for me

 

[Alatar]

What I didn’t like about BVS wasn’t the Martha scene, it was when Superman after he throws the sewer grate at the two weapons that Batman set up he walks over and is like “ you don’t understand” and Batman goes “I understand” and Superman just pushes him and sends him flying. It’s like dude of course Batman is t going to listen to you now you threw him like a rag doll then you walk over to him again and pick him up through a building and smash him on his signal?? That scene was out of Superman’s character for me

Admittedly, that was gratuitous just so that we could see them throw down. But according to the arc in BvS he is clearly not a mature Superman yet. He's still got lots of faults and shortcomings in BvS. He's still growing into his powers and learning how to use them in the moral and ethical realms in a real world setting.

And I like that! It's just more inherently interesting to me than a fully formed, 'ideal' Superman.

What was fascinating to me is that in the originally planned five film arc, in the next JL film Superman would have been close to what we are used to when we think of the classic character. The next movie would have had the Justice League and Green Lantern Corps take the fight to Darkseid on Apokalips--but they get their asses handed to them. In the final film Superman is mind controlled by Darkseid as we saw in the so-called Knightmare vision in BvS. And Batman ends up giving his to life kill Darkseid, and also probably saves Lois somehow which makes it possible to bring Superman back to his true self. But anyway, that whole arc for both Superman and Batman would have been awesome to me.

 

[SilverStar17]

Superman roughing up Batman a bit didn’t really bother me either, because as mentioned, this was still supposed to be a maturing Superman, and in the UE, the wife of that convict who was slain while in prison because he was marked with the bat brand told Clark that someone who possessed Batman’s current state of mind, wasn’t going to listen to words; the only thing they’d understand at that point, is fists. Which proved to be correct. I think Superman was intentionally taking it easy on him, and was merely roughing him up a little bit just to convey to Batman that he didn’t stand a chance against him. He really didn’t want to kill him, and even went as far as saying this and telling him to basically stop and listen. (“Stay down! If I wanted it, you’d be dead already.”) Batman only really got the upper hand because he used kryptonite, which Superman wasn’t expecting nor possibly even knew was deadly to him at that point.

Since Batman wasn’t letting Superman explain the situation in detail to where he wouldn’t even have to say “Martha,” his only last option to really snap Batman out of it was to play the card of Martha Wayne, and convey to him that because of his current actions, he’s letting “his” mother be killed (which of course, had dual meaning).

But yeah, of course this was all set-up so that way we’d be able to see them fight. Batman wasn’t going to have a change of heart before tussling a little bit first.

 

[Alatar]

The same argument could be made in Frank Miller's TDKR that the fight between the two could have been avoided, right? Because Superman is so much more powerful. He could use super-speed, come up behind Bruce, fly him up into the air with a choke hold on him, and make him listen to whatever he has to say until Batman calms down. (Kryptonite grenades unleashed in that situation get Batman killed.)

But then there's no fight. And honestly, a film like this is predicated on them duking it out. That's the 'fight night' gladiator spectacle we came for.

Superman does pull his punches but he puts some serious hurt on Batman too, sensitive to what he can withstand in the mech suit, I'd imagine.

One thing I'm struck by is that Superman basically allows himself to come a hair's breadth from being killed by a crazed Batman. In my mind all the more reason to suspect that Clark did in fact research Batman/Bruce pretty extensively and probably likes and admires who he has been--and by the same token is so disheartened to see the darker path Batman has gone down during his moral 'fall'.

I played D&D about 15-20 years ago via Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Knights and it reminds me of a paladin (knight) that has forsaken his sacred moral code, and ends up in a state that is called 'fallen'.

I have sometimes wondered if Batman might even have fallen prey to Darkseid's telepathic powers once Barry opened the portal from the future. Maybe that partially explains why Bruce seems to go temporarily mad with the imperative to kill Superman. Like maybe Darkseid could have glimpsed Bruce during the Knightmare vision through Superman's eyes, what with Superman being Darkseid's puppet at that point. But then again it doesn't seem to make sense for Darkseid to want Bruce to kill the person that will become his chief general on earth.

And for that matter since Lex is actually seen communing with Steppenwolf in the scout ship, he too would probably have come under Darkseid's thrall.

 

[SilverStar17]

...all the more reason to suspect that Clark did in fact research Batman/Bruce pretty extensively and probably likes and admires who he has been--and by the same token is so disheartened to see the darker path Batman has gone down during his moral 'fall'.

Not to mention because he was going down the same route as Batman himself, where he was becoming jaded and disillusioned and questioning his own sense of morality, and whether or not he was doing the right thing, and even if he was, if it was enough because no matter what he did, there would still be evil that manifests somewhere else. The difference was that he was able to stop himself and come to terms with his role in society and that he can’t fix nor prevent everything that’s bad from happening, that he can only do what he can and help where he can, whereas Batman let those same feelings win and change who he was for the worse. So to put it succinctly, Superman was able to understand where Batman was at emotionally because he had experienced the same feelings. So he knew that he was actually a good guy who had just lost his way, which was further being fueled by Luthor stoking the flames.

 

[Beckinsale]

Superman roughing up Batman a bit didn’t really bother me either, because as mentioned, this was still supposed to be a maturing Superman, and in the UE, the wife of that convict who was slain while in prison because he was marked with the bat brand told Clark that someone who possessed Batman’s current state of mind, wasn’t going to listen to words; the only thing they’d understand at that point, is fists. Which proved to be correct. I think Superman was intentionally taking it easy on him, and was merely roughing him up a little bit just to convey to Batman that he didn’t stand a chance against him. He really didn’t want to kill him, and even went as far as saying this and telling him to basically stop and listen. (“Stay down! If I wanted it, you’d be dead already.”) Batman only really got the upper hand because he used kryptonite, which Superman wasn’t expecting nor possibly even knew was deadly to him at that point.

Since Batman wasn’t letting Superman explain the situation in detail to where he wouldn’t even have to say “Martha,” his only last option to really snap Batman out of it was to play the card of Martha Wayne, and convey to him that because of his current actions, he’s letting “his” mother be killed (which of course, had dual meaning).

But yeah, of course this was all set-up so that way we’d be able to see them fight. Batman wasn’t going to have a change of heart before tussling a little bit first.

His comment was perfect, I would speak exactly the words of the wife of that convict , so, first Superman wants to show Batman that that fight does not make sense because he could end whenever he wanted, he even says so. But you have already put all those points.

 

[Cocoboloboy]

Beautiful figure.

 

[SilverStar17]

Nice base and pose.

 

[atexp80]

Got mine in from PopCultcha this last week. My very first Hot Toys figure!

 

[Jaymig926]

Shameless plug have armored bats for sale $215 shipped

 

[atexp80]

I took another pics as part of my full collection shoot. Such an imposing figure!

 

[libormatejka]

Hi guys,

what version do you recommend? MMS 417 or MMS 349?

 

[atexp80]

As an owner of both, I like MMS349 better as a figure. They're both great, but the non-battle damaged version is better. It's surprising how much more expressive the mouth plates are for the non-Battle Damaged version. The sculpt on the Battle Damaged one is good and the Kryptonite spear is great, but the mouth totally makes the original look like a shot from the film.

 

[SilverStar17]

Hi guys,

what version do you recommend? MMS 417 or MMS 349?

MMS349. It’s the most accurate of all the armored Batmans, in my opinion.

 

[Auel]

Been contemplating for months, but pulled the trigger on a good deal.

Completed my Batfleck collection with this guy