Captain America: The First Avenger Discussion Thread

[Agent0028]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I think they will give him the round shield in the movie too, for people who aren't as familiar with the comics it may be disconcerting to have Cap with the other shield.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

Don't be so shortsighted.

Summer 2011 with an Avengers-themed summer – a two-picture project which will debut on May 6, 2011 with The First Avenger: Captain America (working title), followed by The Avengers in July 2011.

We are dealing with a month in between.

You honestly don't see this version of Cap:

Taking over his own film and have them in continuity explain and show off this design in an Avengers film?

Not only do you maximize merchandising profits but you also keep in continuity with the obvious one they are going for as well as giving the fans a nice nod and giving Captain America enough explanation and history to carry him into solo projects seamlessly.

 

[Khev]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

Gosh I hope they don't give us the Ultimates versions of his WWII and Silver/Bronze/Copper Age costumes. *Extremely* minor changes like they did with Superman and Spider-Man will be fine (and to tell you the truth, expected) but those Ultimates getups are just too far of a departure IMO. Give us the Marvel PF costumes in 1:1 scale please!

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I think it would work, I just don't know if they will do it. Plus when Cap throws his shield it ricochets around the room knocking out multiple villains. I'm not sure if that makes as much sense with the non-round shield. But then maybe he won't throw the shield in the movie.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

In the 1942 explanation it was more used as a shield against gunfire than anything else, he rarely threw it. When he got his rounded shield he incorporated it into a weapon.

As for the Ultimates look, its obvious that they are going for Ultimates story and continuity but wanting a look that is more traditional or else we would have gotten an Iron Man that looked like this:

The designers of the suit were all told to take the modern Extremis armor and make it more logical and more doable in real life to which they did. The only look I see being a real dramatic departure from the traditional is Thor. But I wouldn't be surprised if they made Captain America more like the Ultimates and less like the spandex versions we all know.....they are definitely trying to keep it all as realistic as possible.

 

[Sick Boy 82]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

If we got a Cap that looked more like the one below, I don't think I could complain to much. I think he has just enouh WWII touches to make it work. The leather and pouches and chainmail looks right. But I was also not a huge Cap follower, so.....

 

[Khev]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

As for the Ultimates look, its obvious that they are going for Ultimates story and continuity but wanting a look that is more traditional or else we would have gotten an Iron Man that looked like this:

With regard to Captain America I don't think anything has been made obvious (at least as far as the links posted in this thread are concerned) about whether they'll follow the Ultimates reboot of the character or not. Sam Jackson in Iron Man for two seconds is obviously straight out of the Ultimates but Tony Stark being caucasian and the design of his suit are not.

Captain America is different than Iron Man or Batman in that constant redesigns of his suit are not a part of his character. For that reason I think they should stick with his most iconic look (again, like filmmakers did with Spider-Man and Superman.) I didn't like his rebooted personality in Ultimates either so hopefully they just shy away from that universe pretty much straight across the board for his film.

He's a 60+ year old character that doesn't need to suffer from an inferior redesign that's just a few years old.

 

[Bat Eater]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I never liked that suit, no wings on his head BOOOOOOOO

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I never quite got the point of the wings. They always seemed a little odd to me.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

With regard to Captain America I don't think anything has been made obvious (at least as far as the links posted in this thread are concerned) about whether they'll follow the Ultimates reboot of the character or not. Sam Jackson in Iron Man for two seconds is obviously straight out of the Ultimates but Tony Stark being caucasian and the design of his suit are not.

As I said clearly, the designs of the suits were always meant to follow a more 616 design from the get go. As for the Ultimates universe, you either do not read the Ultimates books or have forgotten many of the obvious tie ins. In the 616 world, Iron Man could put the suit on himself, in fact now its portable while in the Ultimates world he needed a whole team of machines to fasten and tighten his suit, not to mention it was only charged to run on a limited amount of time, a fact that we heard in the film as well. Also in the Ultimates world, Nick Fury contracts Stark not only as Iron Man but to provide the tech to help create the Ultimates, the scene we saw eluded to in the after credits scene. Tony Stark was not cascasian in the Ultimates world, he was Latino but if you've read Card's stuff they've downplayed that a bit and in the Ultimates world he suffers from a brain tumor that isn't operable not a heart condition....again difference do occur but its obvious if you read the first arc of the Ultimates and see just how the team was assembled in modern times not to mention that the Hulk storyline directly borrows from that in having Banner working on a Super Soldier Serum to try and recreate what was done in the past and having to be taken down by Ross as we are seeing in the trailer as well is directly from the Ultimates Team Ups that occurred pre-Ultimates #1....

The connections and links are clear there are more in the various threads but I'm too lazy to name or find them all and they are following that continuity but wanting to keep the 616 origins in order to make them modern as Ultimates has done but still recognizable to hardcore fans.

As for Captain America he'd had his share of redesigns in costuming, the only differences is that he held a type of costume regularly for a good amount of time, but some DC fans would argue the Blue/Grey Neal Adams Batman which held long time cross over continuity and even the Neal Adams or Swan Superman would follow that same line.

A Marvel fan could not argue that many of Kirby's designs are the iconic most recognized looks that were just modified by artists like Romita Sr and that they should have kept that, look at Alex Ross' work which is heavily inspired from the Silver Age but if you are arguing that Superman and Spider-Man kept true to the original recognizable designs then you haven't read the uproar when the first film's Spider-Man costuming was announced or even how many fans disliked the Christopher Reeve look down to the "S" that differs from the standard Comic S and let's not get into Superman Returns.


A redesign of Cap will happen like it or not because the looks themselves of Spandex do not in any way make sense in the modern world. Superman's look was tampered with as much as would be allowed in reality but as the X-Men showed the spandex costume design isn't one that Marvel is hellbent on keeping intact. The good news is with Spider-Man we got a classic look modernized as we did with Iron Man so I fully expect that the film Captain America will be fully 616 inspired but will in no way be what we got from Sideshow in PF form.

Lastly, look at the first real arc of the Ultimates, it was about forming the team and rediscovering Captain America who was thought lost forever after 1942. It reintroduces him to society who has forgotten him (his meeting with Bucky was great) and it uses the comedy of him having to assimulate into modern society but still having 1940s morals and attitudes. I do not see the writers moving away from what Millar has done so beautifully. His comics play out perfectly on screen as well they should since he said he attacked them like a screenplay and not a comic.

 

[Sick Boy 82]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I never quite got the point of the wings. They always seemed a little odd to me.

Yeah, right. I mean, they do fit in my mind after seeing them on him for so long, but what the hell are they there for. He can't fly. And if they were to represent swiftness, they would be on his ankles like the Greek messanger whose name escapes me at this time.

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

Hermes. Love greek mythology.

Mike, your post makes me want to get out my Ultimates TPB and re-read it.

 

[Bat Eater]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

Ultimates:emperor

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I liked the first story arc in the Ultimates, I didn't care as much for the others.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

For me the Ultimates was a mini-series that only ran one arc. Picked up Ultimates 2 and never got into it and haven't even given Loeb's version a chance.....

 

[Khev]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

As I said clearly, the designs of the suits were always meant to follow a more 616 design from the get go. As for the Ultimates universe, you either do not read the Ultimates books or have forgotten many of the obvious tie ins.

I've only browsed the two Ultimates mini-series. I'm pretty much a straight "616" guy and I think the whole Ultimates universe will in due time amount to nothing more than a passing and abandoned fad. Of course time will tell if I'm correct or not. It does sound like there were more Ultimates references in the Iron Man (and apparently Hulk) film than I was aware of. I'm glad they didn't deviate too much from classic designs or concepts for Hulk and Iron Man, hopefully Cap's iconic look will survive his film as well. Its not like it would be a deal breaker for me if they modified it (in fact I already stated that I *expect* them to do some tweaks to make it work in live-action) if overall his original concept remains intact and its a good movie.

 

[Khev]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I think it would work, I just don't know if they will do it. Plus when Cap throws his shield it ricochets around the room knocking out multiple villains. I'm not sure if that makes as much sense with the non-round shield.

Yep, which is what Cap himself determined shortly after taking his diamond shield into combat in WWII. He *quickly* upgraded to the round shield even during his Golden Age run. Hopefully the filmmakers "get" how much more cinematic it will be for him doing the ricochet attacks and don't wait a whole movie before giving him his iconic shield. I still hope he starts out with the diamond, I just don't want them to overdo it. Imagine if Tony Stark wore nothing but his clunky gray armor for the entire movie!

 

[The Mike]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

Apples and Oranges. Stark in the Mark 01 for a whole film would be slow especially considering that they'd need a Mark 02 and then 03. Captain America doesn't have much build up as you said, its mainly the same character just brought from that timeperiod to this one. The Ultimates version has the team brought together once he is found and the first arc was about thawing and bringing Cap to the 21st century. Even if they don't follow the Ultimates storyline that is probably the way they'll go. So, I can see him being in full 1942 get up for the first film. Now, he could in theory use the circular shield and then have Tony build him a "better" one but they could easily do just the Silver Age shield the whole way through the first film.

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

I pretty much got in to the Ultimate Universe because there was less backstory and easier to get in to. The only 616 stuff I read the big crossover things like House of M and Civil War. I also read New Avengers (since I don't care Ultimates all that much), Captain America Iron Man, and Ms. Marvel because they are some of my favorites and don't have ultimate lines to themselves.

 

[Khev]

Re: The First Avenger: Captain America Discussion Thread

Now, he could in theory use the circular shield and then have Tony build him a "better" one but they could easily do just the Silver Age shield the whole way through the first film.

Mike I think you may be a bit confused about the evolution of the Captain America character. I'm not saying that to be snarky, I've recently learned my fair share about Cap in the 21st century and Ultimates.

Captain America's round shield did NOT debut in the "Silver Age" (maybe that was a simple typo on your part?) He acquired it in Captain America Comics #2 (released in 1941 under Timely Comics and already posted in this thread.) At the time his uniform only had stripes on the front of his torso and there was a blue ring around the outside of his shield. The 40's and 50's are considered to be the "Golden Age" of comics. Then, in the 60's (beginning of the Silver Age), Marvel Comics reintroduced him into the Marvel U and tweaked his suit and shield in a very slight retcon (added stripes to his back, changed blue ring on shield to red.) That 60's retcon became the iconic Captain America for over 45 years. No tweaks to the costume came until the 21st Century Modern Age where they retconned his suit one more time (even his WWII suit) to have an army belt and lace up boots.

During the 45+ years of Captain America's iconic suit, that is, this one,

*Steve Rogers* wore a couple of different outfits (Nomad Costume, Black "US Agent" suit) but the suit of "Captain America" stayed the same (ie, when he stepped down as Cap and wore the black suit John Walker took over the role and still wore the classic costume.) There was one brief stint where he wore silly looking body armor in the 90's and then of course "Heroes Reborn" where Rob Liefeld changed his "A" to an eagle. Very brief costume tweaks that resulted in quick changes back to the original design.

The point is that his diamond shield was used *very* briefly, for a much shorter time than say Iron Man's Mark I armor. Apparently in The Ultimates, (a pocket universe and not at ALL true continuity of the classic character) he used the diamond shield exclusively in WWII. But that's just the Ultimates, and a disclaimer should always be mentioned when referencing it. Maybe the movie will go that route and maybe they will stick to the decades old iconic telling of his tale. We'll have to see.