Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier (SPOILERS)

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Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

RR could've been Cap back in the day.

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Inspired casting having Redford in TWS. I would get a figure of Pierce if they ever made him. Been watching All The President's Men a lot lately.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Yeah, putting that aside though, I like some of Millar's stuff, particularly the Authority, but I don't think he likes his Cap, and really, I think he has an anti-U.S. thing that seeps into those comics that I don't care for when you're talking Avengers, and not some newly created team (even though the Authority was a pretty thinly veiled version of the Justice League). That was part of the Authority, which seemed to be a bit of a riff on the logical extension of U.S. global policing efforts. Toward this end, he makes Cap a bit of an *******, saying things that are not Cap-like because I think Millar saw the U.S. as a kind of unrefined bully, and that's not Cap to me.

The Brubaker run is very good, but it's not nearly my favorite Cap stuff. I would personally suggest going back to the Dematteis run from the late '70s-early '80s, as that is my favorite Cap run I've read. He portrayed Cap as a bit conflicted at times, dealing with a post-Watergate and Vietnam type world while still representing the fundamental U.S. values that he symbolizes. But overall they're just classic, straightforward, well told comic stories, that don't feel the need to be dark and gritty for the sake of being dark and gritty, which we see a lot of nowadays. When they were that way, it was for the purpose of making a point about poverty, drug use, exploitation, etc. Plus, a lot of those comics have art from Mike Zeck--one of the most iconic comic artists there ever was.

And then, there are lots of Avengers stories with Cap that are quite good, starting with Avengers 4 of the original Lee/Kirby run, and going through the second incarnation of the team with Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, and Quicksilver. It becomes hit-and-miss, but much of that is good reading. Funny seeing Cap acting nutty about Rick Jones as a substitute for Bucky back in the day. But reading that may help folks to better understand how important Buck was to him.

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LOL

I also enjoyed the Busiek/Perez Avengers run from the late '90s or early 2000s, which had Cap leading the team.
 
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Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

But those are terrible, not worth it :monkey4

I gotta diagree. The first 2 runs of the Ultimates were amazing. The series did fall off after that, but those 2 early runs had everything. The intro to cap was perfect. I will always prefer Ultimate Cap to 616. I thought the twist of no one being sure if Thor is actually a God or just a crazy guy in power armor was excellent. And they played with it just long enough to make you doubt it yourself. Hulk gets a raw deal in Ultimates 1, but he gets full redemption in Ulitmates 2. The Ultimate Universe did a lot of great things. My favorite story is just a one off in Ultimate X-Men where a kid gets his mutant powers, and hes basically just walking nuclear fallout. He kills his whole town, simply by waking up, and walking around. And he as no clue. He runs away, and lives in a desert cave. Wolverine is sent by Xavier and SHIELD to kill the kid, because of how much bad press this could be for mutants if it got out that one was responsible. Xavier even points out that there really is no way to control his power, and he would kill anyone who came in contact with him. Logan goes and just talks to the kid, and explains everything. No big adventure, no world level threat. Just a kid who drew the short straw on mutation. The Ultimate Universe had some amazing stories and some not so amazing ones, just like 616.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I gotta diagree. The first 2 runs of the Ultimates were amazing. The series did fall off after that, but those 2 early runs had everything. The intro to cap was perfect. I will always prefer Ultimate Cap to 616. I thought the twist of no one being sure if Thor is actually a God or just a crazy guy in power armor was excellent. And they played with it just long enough to make you doubt it yourself. Hulk gets a raw deal in Ultimates 1, but he gets full redemption in Ulitmates 2. The Ultimate Universe did a lot of great things. My favorite story is just a one off in Ultimate X-Men where a kid gets his mutant powers, and hes basically just walking nuclear fallout. He kills his whole town, simply by waking up, and walking around. And he as no clue. He runs away, and lives in a desert cave. Wolverine is sent by Xavier and SHIELD to kill the kid, because of how much bad press this could be for mutants if it got out that one was responsible. Xavier even points out that there really is no way to control his power, and he would kill anyone who came in contact with him. Logan goes and just talks to the kid, and explains everything. No big adventure, no world level threat. Just a kid who drew the short straw on mutation. The Ultimate Universe had some amazing stories and some not so amazing ones, just like 616.

i agree. Ultimates 1 & 2 are probably single-handedly responsible for the period of re-interest in comics i had in my 20s.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

The John Byrne/Roger Stern run on Cap in the early 80's was very good.
It had Cap being asked to run for Prez, a good fight with Baron Von Strucker and Cap going back to England and teaming up with a new Union Jack to stop a Vampire.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Millar's Cap was a bully who reminded me of the jerk that Peggy punches out in TFA. Definitely not Cap.

How was he a bully? He beats up Hank, who deserves it. The scene of him kicking Banner showed that he has some emotions. Yeah Banner is helpless, but Hulk had just mopped the floor with all of New York. Cap was frustrated, and at that point he has no emotional ties to Banner. Hulk is simply a monster to him, and Banner is the guy who let him out. Millar's version is more soldier than superhero. Which fits in the first story, because that's all he is.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

How was he a bully? He beats up Hank, who deserves it. The scene of him kicking Banner showed that he has some emotions. Yeah Banner is helpless, but Hulk had just mopped the floor with all of New York. Cap was frustrated, and at that point he has no emotional ties to Banner. Hulk is simply a monster to him, and Banner is the guy who let him out. Millar's version is more soldier than superhero. Which fits in the first story, because that's all he is.

Exactly! Couldn't have put it better myself.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

That hardly fits with the kind of guy other Marvel characters are supposed to look up to and admire as a symbolic representation of what they hoped to be, though--which is what 616-verse Cap was. When you start cheering for the guy who is brutally beating on some "bad guy" well after the fight is over--as I believe Millar hoped readers would--then I think he's providing artistic commentary. I think that's the symbolic meaning of some of Cap's actions. But at the same time, Millar may have been representing a "real" steroid-riddled character, who was emotionally unstable and had no impulse control. Whatever the case, I don't think Millar looked on that character favorably, any moreso than he did Jenny Sparks and crew, who acted in a similarly judgmental, violent fashion toward those they didn't agree with morally. Makes for an interesting story, even makes for interesting, albeit flawed characters you can root for. But for Captain freaking America? No thanks. We've got Punisher for that.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I wonder if Millar's Cap didn't intentionally take on some characteristics of crazy 1950s Cap or U.S. Agent, now that I'm thinking about it. I recall a comic from my childhood where Walker as Cap beat the **** out of two guys, then left them to die in an explosion.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

People Cap punches in Ultimates 1: Nazis(I assume we all agree this is okay), Hank Pym(as retaliation for Hank beating up his wife an putting her in the hospital) His reaction is that of any normal human being after seeing the results. He makes Hank go Giant, and then he beats him down. I had/have no problem with this. Bruce Banner was a cheap shot. But remember Hulk had just killed millions of people rampaging through New York. Spider-Man was almost killed. Tony was almost eaten. Cap took the brunt of it so the others wouldn't get hurt. He's easily portrayed as a leader, and someone that these characters should follow. He makes Tony a better man. Pulls him out(somewhat) of his hedonistic ways. Cap in the Ultimates 1 is not the Superhero. He's a soldier out of time, and without a war. Peggy and Bucky are married and old. But you see the leader there several times. During the big final battle Tony is terrified, and wants to run, but Cap points out that if they don't stay, if it's not their responsibility to fight, then whose is it. Ultimate Cap is very different from 616. But these are also his earlier adventures. Remember he just woke up. 616 Cap has been awake for years. UCap still hangs around his war buddies who are still alive. He spends all his downtime with them. 616 Cap has long since moved on. You can't judge them the same. Currently Ultimate Cap is very much the superhero leader. He's mentoring the new Spider-Man, partially out of guilt for what happened to Peter. But he admits his mistakes and tries to be better. Hell, he may have just sacrificed himself to save the Ultimate Earth from 616 Galactus. Millar plays up the soldier aspect very early on. The Superhero stuff comes at the end of Ultimates 2. Just my take though.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I wonder if Millar's Cap didn't intentionally take on some characteristics of crazy 1950s Cap or U.S. Agent, now that I'm thinking about it. I recall a comic from my childhood where Walker as Cap beat the **** out of two guys, then left them to die in an explosion.

From your childhood? Man, you've got to revisit it in the Captain America/The Captain trade then! Such a great story, still today (and my often mentioned #1 requested storyline for Cap 3.) But yeah, Gruenwald's Walker did seem to be a bit of a template for Millar's Cap, right down to the crew cut and bad attitude. Except Gruenwald presented him as the *bad* guy who was not cut out to be Cap (even if some of his shortcomings were sympathetic, like going full homicidal when his parents are gunned down in front of him.)

Cap has always been an inspiring character as Kara said, even if he made mistakes or questioned his own decisions from time to time. He never "lost it."

And that was one of the things that warmed my heart about TWS movie. Cap going over the PA system and basically announcing, "Hey, I know you may be working next to your best friend, but he/she might be a HYDRA agent, so I'm asking you to stand with me," and people listened! That was awesome! I read recently that whenever there's a rift or conflict in the comics that whichever side Captain America is on is basically the "good" side, and I agree, or I agree at least that that's how it should be.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

From your childhood? Man, you've got to revisit it in the Captain America/The Captain trade then! Such a great story, still today (and my often mentioned #1 requested storyline for Cap 3.) But yeah, Gruenwald's Walker did seem to be a bit of a template for Millar's Cap, right down to the crew cut and bad attitude. Except Gruenwald presented him as the *bad* guy who was not cut out to be Cap (even if some of his shortcomings were sympathetic, like going full homicidal when his parents are gunned down in front of him.)

Cap has always been an inspiring character as Kara said, even if he made mistakes or questioned his own decisions from time to time. He never "lost it."

And that was one of the things that warmed my heart about TWS movie. Cap going over the PA system and basically announcing, "Hey, I know you may be working next to your best friend, but he/she might be a HYDRA agent, so I'm asking you to stand with me," and people listened! That was awesome! I read recently that whenever there's a rift or conflict in the comics that whichever side Captain America is on is basically the "good" side, and I agree, or I agree at least that that's how it should be.

Yeah, that was powerful. We're siding with Captain America because of who he is and what he represents. Definitely a leap of faith, but it helped balance the whole "hunting Cap" order, which you just know could not be blindly believed by all.
 
Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Can someone clear this up?
how did Bucky saved Captain America in the end if his arm was broken so how he carry and swim at the same time.
 
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