Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier (SPOILERS)

[Star Puffs]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

i did not really enjoy your review. The point of it was too convoluted for the movie involved. If attempting to justify a comic book movie with actual logic is not a 'you don't get it' moment, then what is?

It is "convoluted" to think Iron Man or Thor would respond to the world-altering threat at issue in the film? Ironically the immediate threat was larger in scale than the one in The Avengers film.

If it were a comicbook, Marvel would have had made this sort of plot a massive crossover event.

 

[pturtle]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

It is "convoluted" to think Iron Man or Thor would respond to the world-altering threat at issue in the film? The threat was larger in scale than the one in The Avengers film.

If it were a comicbook, Marvel would have had made this sort of plot a massive crossover event.

This is actually a valid point, I don’t think it ruins the film in anyway, when I watch these solo films, “other” heroes never pop up in my head, I couldn’t care less what they are up to.

 

[morphosis]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

It is "convoluted" to think Iron Man or Thor would respond to the world-altering threat at issue in the film? Ironically the immediate threat was larger in scale than the one in The Avengers film.

If it were a comicbook, Marvel would have had made this sort of plot a massive crossover event.

Your definitely right, which is my whole issue with Agents of Shield. I may not be in the same boat as you regarding WS since I thought it was amazing, but definitely understand. That's the tough thing trying to link all the films and everything together. Different directors, writers, new actors and characters etc etc.

I mean how does GOTG really fit in this movie Marvel world?

 

[pturtle]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Your definitely right, which is my whole issue with Agents of Shield. I may not be in the same boat as you regarding WS since I thought it was amazing, but definitely understand. That's the tough thing trying to link all the films and everything together. Different directors, writers, new actors and characters etc etc.

I mean how does GOTG really fit in this movie Marvel world?

Only connection right now is Thanos.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

The plot was too over-the-top for the characters involved. If attempting to kill millions of people is not an "Avengers Assemble" moment, then what is?

Falcon was just the poor man's Iron Man/War Machine and the ridiculous helicopter leap exemplifies my problems with the film.

Apologies if I'm missing something, I didn't see this one 5 or 6 times as some here apparently have

But from what I recall, the plot wasn't fully known until near the end of the film, at which point Cap scarcely had the time to try to get in touch with Thor in Asgard, and as someone pointed out before, he would probably have been skeptical of getting either Iron Man or Hawkeye involved, considering their connection with SHIELD based on Fury's comments not to trust anyone. Hulk was probably roaming the countryside, trying to avoid civilization as best he could, and thus not probably easily accessible. So I don't think he could have really pulled other Avengers into things at that point.

I actually agree about Falcon on some level, and think it's too bad that Marvel Studios defaults to "military soldier" for its characters that it may be too embarrased to treat in the way they were treated in the comics (Hawkeye being another example). That's the easy answer to explain why someone has some kind of fantastic power of course, but in the comics he was a social worker/community organizer, and later a pimp and criminal! That would have been a nice way of distinguishing him from Rhodey. Though of course, there are differences in that Wilson in this film isn't a career officer as Rhodey is, and that's part of why Cap trusts him.

As for how GOTG fits in, no one has seen the film, so no one has any clue as to how they might be related! But in the Marvel comics, we also had stories with small scales (lots of Daredevil stories might fit into this--fighting with oneself, and maybe centering on one or a small handful of individuals), stories with medium scales (threats to groups, small places, maybe even cities), and stories with large scales (threatening countries, planets, the universe). No reason it can't also be done in the films.

 

[guy66657]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I mean how does GOTG really fit in this movie Marvel world?

It's mainly for Avengers 3 since it early has another Infinity Gem in it. Thanos is in it for sure since both his step daughters are there. It's all about planting seeds man. It's beautiful. They're making it just like the comics.

 

[Wake]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Your definitely right, which is my whole issue with Agents of Shield. I may not be in the same boat as you regarding WS since I thought it was amazing, but definitely understand. That's the tough thing trying to link all the films and everything together. Different directors, writers, new actors and characters etc etc.

I mean how does GOTG really fit in this movie Marvel world?

Couldnt you ask the question of ALL comic book characters and universes? I mean does the Punisher really belong in the world of Spiderman? What about Batman and Superman? I dont see anything wrong with it. If GoTG can exist in the 616 they can exist in the MCU.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Apologies if I'm missing something, I didn't see this one 5 or 6 times as some here apparently have

But from what I recall, the plot wasn't fully known until near the end of the film, at which point Cap scarcely had the time to try to get in touch with Thor in Asgard, and as someone pointed out before, he would probably have been skeptical of getting either Iron Man or Hawkeye involved, considering their connection with SHIELD based on Fury's comments not to trust anyone. Hulk was probably roaming the countryside, trying to avoid civilization as best he could, and thus not probably easily accessible. So I don't think he could have really pulled other Avengers into things at that point.

I actually agree about Falcon on some level, and think it's too bad that Marvel Studios defaults to "military soldier" for its characters that it may be too embarrased to treat in the way they were treated in the comics (Hawkeye being another example). That's the easy answer to explain why someone has some kind of fantastic power of course, but in the comics he was a social worker/community organizer, and later a pimp and criminal! That would have been a nice way of distinguishing him from Rhodey. Though of course, there are differences in that Wilson in this film isn't a career officer as Rhodey is, and that's part of why Cap trusts him.

As for how GOTG fits in, no one has seen the film, so no one has any clue as to how they might be related! But in the Marvel comics, we also had stories with small scales (lots of Daredevil stories might fit into this--fighting with oneself, and maybe centering on one or a small handful of individuals), stories with medium scales (threats to groups, small places, maybe even cities), and stories with large scales (threatening countries, planets, the universe). No reason it can't also be done in the films.

Marvel/Disney did not default to military guy for any of these characters. Rhodey was in the military in his earliest adventures. Ultimate Falcon is a former soldier, and member of SHIELD. 616 Falcon is still in the military and an agent of SHIELD. Ultimate Hawkeye is a career military man, Black Ops, assassination type stuff. None of these guys were changed for the films.

And to answer the question of where were the other Avengers? Tony is really no longer Iron Man after IM3. Hulk is really never been an Avenger until the Marvel Now run. In the Ultimates he's at best the nuclear option. When all else fails you bring him in to wreck ****. Thor has 9 realms to look after, of which Midgard is 1. Plus they have no real way of contacting him. Hawkeye can be assumed to be on a mission somewhere. Possibly recruiting Black Panther(i just gave you an out Marvel!)

 

[guy66657]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

God I hate the Ultimate universe XD Aside from Spider-Man but still hate the Amazing Spider verse. I do wish they would go into Clint being raised by Carnies and even Falcon having his telepathic link. I dunno, I just love the 616 universe but wouldn't mind if they brought certain aspects from the Ultimate verse.

 

[Veil1]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Man, I'm really getting tired of the critique of "why wasn't Thor there? or Why didn't Stark show up?" For Gods sake, not every character can show up in every movie. Just like the comics... Huge earthquake hits Gotham City, where was Superman or Captain Marvel? Because that would take away from a Batman story. It just isn't realistic. These characters need time to shine on their own, and it just doesn't make sense to have everyone crossover to other movies. It would totally negate having an Avengers movie. It doesn't matter where they were.... they were busy. Just enjoy the movie.

 

[Star Puffs]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

But from what I recall, the plot wasn't fully known until near the end of the film, at which point Cap scarcely had the time to try to get in touch with Thor in Asgard, and as someone pointed out before, he would probably have been skeptical of getting either Iron Man or Hawkeye involved, considering their connection with SHIELD based on Fury's comments not to trust anyone.

I'm gonna say I would trust Stark, the guy who consistently distrusted SHIELD, exposed its duplicity in Avengers, and saved New York from a nuclear warhead fired from a SHIELD plane, over the ex-KGB* assassin or some random dude I met jogging (who just *happenes* to have experience with a high-tech flight suit).

Not trusting Hawkeye completely makes more sense given the Loki incident.

*If Natasha was born in 1984 according to 'the computer', the KGB was disbanded in 1991, that is one precocious little assassin.

Thor can drop in on a dime with the Bifröst when it suits the plot.

Hulk was probably roaming the countryside, trying to avoid civilization as best he could, and thus not probably easily accessible. So I don't think he could have really pulled other Avengers into things at that point.

Ok, that make sense.

...

GotG is clearly related to Thanos for the Phase 3 plot.

 

[bransen2099]

Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

God I hate the Ultimate universe XD Aside from Spider-Man but still hate the Amazing Spider verse. I do wish they would go into Clint being raised by Carnies and even Falcon having his telepathic link. I dunno, I just love the 616 universe but wouldn't mind if they brought certain aspects from the Ultimate verse.

The Triskelion :3 almost geeked out of my chair

 

[The Josh]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

And to answer the question of where were the other Avengers? Tony is really no longer Iron Man after IM3. Hulk is really never been an Avenger until the Marvel Now run. In the Ultimates he's at best the nuclear option. When all else fails you bring him in to wreck ****. Thor has 9 realms to look after, of which Midgard is 1. Plus they have no real way of contacting him. Hawkeye can be assumed to be on a mission somewhere. Possibly recruiting Black Panther(i just gave you an out Marvel!)

Tony is still Iron Man. They've done similar things in the comics and he's always been Iron Man. So have no fear he will be rocking the suit in Avengers 2.

 

[Darth Zangetsu]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Man, I'm really getting tired of the critique of "why wasn't Thor there? or Why didn't Stark show up?" For Gods sake, not every character can show up in every movie. Just like the comics... Huge earthquake hits Gotham City, where was Superman or Captain Marvel? Because that would take away from a Batman story. It just isn't realistic. These characters need time to shine on their own, and it just doesn't make sense to have everyone crossover to other movies. It would totally negate having an Avengers movie. It doesn't matter where they were.... they were busy. Just enjoy the movie.

Superman did show up in Gotham during No Man's Land. Bruce Told him to get the hell out of town. Supes tries to help, and actually makes things worse. Bruce fixes the situation and Clark agrees to leave. This was a classic Cap story. Tony and Thor were not involved in the Brubaker story this is based on either. People need to get over that. Avengers and Justice League will be the films where everyone gets together. The solo films are personal stories.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Marvel/Disney did not default to military guy for any of these characters. Rhodey was in the military in his earliest adventures. Ultimate Falcon is a former soldier, and member of SHIELD. 616 Falcon is still in the military and an agent of SHIELD. Ultimate Hawkeye is a career military man, Black Ops, assassination type stuff. None of these guys were changed for the films.

I wasn't referring to Rhodey, but I know you're right about Hawkeye, and assume the same about Falcon (though I don't recall reading about him in the Ultimates). But that doesn't make it any less boring and lazy to my eyes. Marvel Studios takes 616 sometimes, and Ultimates other times, but the 616 stuff would often make for more colorful and interesting characters. Defaulting to some military dude for all the secondary humans that don't warrant a lot of time or attention seems to be a running gag at this point, even if there is precedent in some of the alternate universe comics stuff. If I were a casual observer not familiar with any comics, I would assume nearly every supporting hero in the Marvel Universe had a military background in the comics at this point. Marvel Studios doesn't have to go that route, but they do out of convenience. Not the biggest deal to me in general, but I like 616 Hawkeye and Falcon, and so I'm a bit annoyed with it.

And since Star Pufts mentions it, it would make sense to trust Tony as a skeptic of SHIELD considering what happened in Avengers. I guess this does happen after IM3, but if Cap thought he could help I suspect he would have gotten him involved (even if not as Iron Man). For the purpose of the story making some sense, I still assume he just didn't have the time to try and get all those guys involved.

 

[Wake]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I wasn't referring to Rhodey, but I know you're right about Hawkeye, and assume the same about Falcon (though I don't recall reading about him in the Ultimates). But that doesn't make it any less boring and lazy to my eyes. Marvel Studios takes 616 sometimes, and Ultimates other times, but the 616 stuff would often make for more colorful and interesting characters. Defaulting to some military dude for all the secondary humans that don't warrant a lot of time or attention seems to be a running gag at this point, even if there is precedent in some of the alternate universe comics stuff. If I were a casual observer not familiar with any comics, I would assume nearly every supporting hero in the Marvel Universe had a military background in the comics at this point. Marvel Studios doesn't have to go that route, but they do out of convenience. Not the biggest deal to me in general, but I like 616 Hawkeye and Falcon, and so I'm a bit annoyed with it.

And since Star Pufts mentions it, it would make sense to trust Tony as a skeptic of SHIELD considering what happened in Avengers. I guess this does happen after IM3, but if Cap thought he could help I suspect he would have gotten him involved (even if not as Iron Man). For the purpose of the story making some sense, I still assume he just didn't have the time to try and get all those guys involved.

By my count it seems like the events in TWS happen over the course of four days or so. The movie opens in washington then on to the mission on the lemurian star (night). The next day (?) or on return Cap questions Fury. Later that night Fury is in Caps apartment. The next morning Cap is escorted by STRIKE back to the triskellion to meet with Pearce. THat night he ends up in camp Leighton, NJ. So far thats 3 days. The next day he and widow arrive at Falcon's home. That night he steals the Golden Age cap uniform. The next day the attack on the triskellion happens.

 

[Anzik]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Cap knew SHIELD's capabilities. Sitwell was scouring every link he had for any trace of Steve Rogers, so Tony would be watched/jammed etc. I'm sure he knew it would be a red flag if he contacted someone.One thing I loved about the film

Spoiler

Was how quick Pierce moved against Cap. Virtually no warning and he was on the run from that point on. The heli carrier battle happened very quickly. I would imagine it didn't even hit the news until it was almost over since it didn't last long either. Stark might have been anywhere and unless Heimdall was looking anywhere else in the universe, Thor wouldn't know whats happening on Earth assuming he was in Asgard. Its a big world with no shortage of missions I don't find it implausible no one else was around.

I also find it far more plausible that Sam Wilson can use the wing suit with military training in para-rescue instead of a limited background in crushed velvet suits. Makes sense to give these guys a background in combat if you expect them to do well in combat.

 

[DFanatic]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

These question of where was such and such character during the events of solo movies will come even harder after Avengers 2 considering that these characters could be living under the same roof (as teased at the end of the first avengers).



Not to mention, they really are part of a team now, as their costumes on Avengers 2 are showing the "A" logo.

 

[Scurvy26]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

I just saw it and found it very enjoyable. I wasn't bothered with the "where is IM, Thor, etc" questions but I didn't like the moment where Cap completely surrenders to WS and nearly gets beaten to death. It just seemed stupid and overly (as well as pointlessly) dramatic. Why couldn't he have been more defensive in his fighting while also engaging in dialogue to trigger the memories? It may be minor but it did detract from the movie for me and it's my only complaint. On the positive side, similar to others, I found the action, tone, and performances to be very good and it does rank as one of the best MCU movies.

 

[bransen2099]

Re: Captain America 2: The Winter Soldier

Just realized...

Spoiler

when Fury first meets with Pierce at the beginning, Pierce says Ironman has to show up at his daughters birthday party... The daughter isnt gonna have a dad at the party :'(