Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Rorywan]

It could easily have made sense.. all of it.
If TLJ had been coherently written. It wasn't and everything including the baby got washed down the plug.

I have some faith in JJ to try and pull it back together. After all, he is probably thrilled that Rian ignored and didn't use all the cool mystery box elements and characters that JJ sent up in TFA. I bet that's why he came back - so HE could use the knights of ren, maybe even snoke from the rumours.

 

[Otomofan]

Give any Star Wars fan a few hours to brainstorm and we could have come up with a dozen better ideas than TLJ.

I don't think Abrams had any idea. He's lazy. He's simply a set up guy. He sets things up and then he goes golfing or whatever. It's the next guy's problem.

Rey and Snoke never had a backstory. Luke never had a reason to be on that island. All Abrams did was provide pretty pictures and taglines and it's up to the next guy to fill in the blanks. Those flashback snippets in Rey's vision? It's the cinematic equivalent of one of my childhood favorites, "The Mysteries of Harris Burdick" by Chris Van Allsburg.



Maybe Luke's power was growing out of control and he was afraid of hurting the people he loved. Maybe he knew he wasn't strong enough to defeat Kylo and he needed Jedi secrets to help him unlock more power.

ANYTHING would have been better than what we got. "He was depressed and gave up and hid like a coward and let everyone he ever cared about die."

Anyone that has ever loved SW could have taken the blueprints that Abrams left in TFA, which I do think were lazy and clumsy, and still crafted a satisfying story out of them. Johnson could have too if he actually gave a **** about it. But he either really did have that vindictive streak in him or was given orders from above to make it all about Rey and neuter Luke, cause I can't see why any rational fan of SW would have chosen to do what he did.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Give any Star Wars fan a few hours to brainstorm and we could have come up with a dozen better ideas than TLJ.

I don't think Abrams had any idea. He's lazy. He's simply a set up guy. He sets things up and then he goes golfing or whatever. It's the next guy's problem.

Rey and Snoke never had a backstory. Luke never had a reason to be on that island. All Abrams did was provide pretty pictures and taglines and it's up to the next guy to fill in the blanks. Those flashback snippets in Rey's vision? It's the cinematic equivalent of one of my childhood favorites, "The Mysteries of Harris Burdick" by Chris Van Allsburg.

View attachment 414778

Maybe Luke's power was growing out of control and he was afraid of hurting the people he loved. Maybe he knew he wasn't strong enough to defeat Kylo and he needed Jedi secrets to help him unlock more power.

ANYTHING would have been better than what we got. "He was depressed and gave up and hid like a coward and let everyone he ever cared about die."

Anyone that has ever loved SW could have taken the blueprints that Abrams left in TFA, which I do think were lazy and clumsy, and still crafted a satisfying story out of them. Johnson could have too if he actually gave a **** about it. But he either really did have that vindictive streak in him or was given orders from above to make it all about Rey and neuter Luke, cause I can't see why any rational fan of SW would have chosen to do what he did.

I just posted this a few posts ago, but again, in TFA - the one written by JJ Abrams, not Rian Johnson - when Rey asks Han why Luke disappeared, this is his response: "One boy (an apprentice) turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible; he just walked away from everything."

There's no need to guess or speculate about why Luke left. It's right there in the movie! Abrams wrote that line for Han/Ford to deliver. Rian Johnson didn't pull "Luke felt responsible; he walked away from everything" out of his rear end. He took that established premise from reading the script to Force Awakens.

There'd be no point to coming up with alterior explanations like "Maybe Luke's power was growing out of control and he was afraid of hurting the people he loved." That would contradict what Abrams had Han explain as Luke's reason for leaving. Again: not Rian Johnson. Han knew why Luke left; the only mystery was where Luke went. That's where Han referenced the rumors amongst those who knew Luke best that he might have gone to the site of the first Jedi temple.

Occam's Razor can be our friend: When other explanations require too many assumptions, the simplest explanation is the best one. In this case, the simplest explanation is the one directly stated in The Force Awakens: Luke walked away . . . because he felt responsible for what happened with Kylo. Simple. If you don't like that explanation, your objection should be solely with Abrams/TFA.

 

[YoNoSe]

In TFA, Han looks at BB8's map and says that it's not complete; it's essentially useless. Even when Poe completes the acolyte's mission to return the partial map to Leia, it still does them no good without Artoo (figuratively and literally) putting the pieces together. It seems like a stretch that Luke would have deliberately planted a remaining fragment in Artoo knowing the lengths it would take to bring it all together. Very inefficient, and too likely to fail for such an important ambition of being found with potential galaxy-saving answers or wisdom. How many times was BB8 (and the map) on the verge of being taken?

And when Rey asks Han why Luke left, this is his response: "One boy (an apprentice) turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible; he just walked away from everything."

There's more than just an implication there that Luke's disappearance was a deliberate full-scale abandonment. I'm not saying that your interpretation of a proactive Luke leaving breadcrumbs would be completely unjustified; just that the explicit dialogue and plot of TFA seems to point, instead, to the interpretation that Johnson got from it. Luke "just walked away from everything" is the most explicit explanation that TFA provided.



But if he had a way back, then you'd have to explain why he wasn't using it. He'd presumably been missing for years. His absence during the escalation of the First Order's tyranny would have to be reconciled with his proactive desire to help prevent or stop it. When is it too long to be gone and still have it make sense for a proactive version of Luke? I think it's reasonable to see that the exposition in TFA suggested a Luke who wasn't planning to come back.



Going there to die alone makes total sense if you apply the context provided by TLJ: Luke wanted to prevent the Jedi (and Jedi hubris) from being the genesis for more Sith corruption. If you wanted to stop a religion IRL, and you were the last of that religion, dying and destroying its scriptures could constitute an end to it.



I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I guess I took Han's "he walked away" statement as a red herring. I wrongly assumed they were setting us up for the triumphant return of Luke.

TLJ is the first SW movie that I felt partially stung by my own expectations.

 

[dan350zr]

At least with the movies George Lucas did we all knew who the villain was, the pre-quells it was Palpatine and in the originals it was Vader, but with TFA and TLJ there really is no villain in this movie, I thought Snoke would be it but he barely lasted 5 mins.... Kylo can't decide if he wants to be good or bad, he's just EMO... I'm surprised that didn't have a scene where he sat in the corner of his room cutting himself with this lightsaber.

JJ Abrams is hit or miss with the stuff he does, I thought he did a great job with the Star Trek reboot but then he jacked it up with the 2nd Star Trek with the lame Kahn story. Even though he only produced the third one the story ending was horrible, they win by blasting old rock and roll?!??! Abrams has some good ideas but he has a tendency to create lots of plot holes... His biggest blunder being LOST, that plot was made out of swiss cheese...

I don't have much faith Abrams can make Star Wars IX any good... And with Rey basically becoming a Jedi Knight with no training through the first 2 movies, she's got to be a force god by now with the power of 100 Yodas

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I guess I took Han's "he walked away" statement as a red herring. I wrongly assumed they were setting us up for the triumphant return of Luke.

TLJ is the first SW movie that I felt partially stung by my own expectations.

The same thing happened to me on opening day. As soon as Luke tossed the lightsaber, I sank in my seat. In fact, the whole first half of the movie was a major letdown for me. But I let go of my expectations interfering when I realized that there were some truly compelling things going on that I wasn't enjoying as much as I should because I was too focused on how I wasn't getting what I wanted. So, the second half was an awesome experience. And I've enjoyed it more on repeat viewings.

I totally understand the sting of unrealized expectations. It's really hard not to let that happen with Star Wars.

 

[Otomofan]

TLJ is the first SW movie that I felt partially stung by my own expectations.

Imagine how Snikt felt!!

 

[Python]

I totally understand the sting of unrealized expectations. It's really hard not to let that happen with Star Wars.

This is certainly a factor. But TLJ is the only movie I've experienced this with to such a degree. The prequels weren't what we expected at all, but I still enjoyed them ultimately. TLJ on the other hand continues to disappoint in every regard. It's just a sad movie for me, and one that will probably be mostly forgotten once a few more hopefully come out and patch over the damage.

If I were Disney, I'd make the current trilogy a four movie series. Just kind of ignore TLJ, make another ("middle movie") that sets things up better for the grande finale. Have Rey actually suffer some kind of defeat in the next one for starters. The current trilogy is missing that aspect.

 

[xipotec]

I just posted this a few posts ago, but again, in TFA - the one written by JJ Abrams, not Rian Johnson - when Rey asks Han why Luke disappeared, this is his response: "One boy (an apprentice) turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible; he just walked away from everything."

There's no need to guess or speculate about why Luke left. It's right there in the movie! Abrams wrote that line for Han/Ford to deliver. Rian Johnson didn't pull "Luke felt responsible; he walked away from everything" out of his rear end. He took that established premise from reading the script to Force Awakens.

There'd be no point to coming up with alterior explanations like "Maybe Luke's power was growing out of control and he was afraid of hurting the people he loved." That would contradict what Abrams had Han explain as Luke's reason for leaving. Again: not Rian Johnson. Han knew why Luke left; the only mystery was where Luke went. That's where Han referenced the rumors amongst those who knew Luke best that he might have gone to the site of the first Jedi temple.

Occam's Razor can be our friend: When other explanations require too many assumptions, the simplest explanation is the best one. In this case, the simplest explanation is the one directly stated in The Force Awakens: Luke walked away . . . because he felt responsible for what happened with Kylo. Simple. If you don't like that explanation, your objection should be solely with Abrams/TFA.

Thanks for this . I understand people dislike this film, but more and more often, I see a constant retread of complaints about the story that have direct answers in the films them selves. It almost seems like an echo chamber of pile on complaints that have answers if you just paid attention to the film.

It was stated plainly the map was to the Jedi temple....NOT to Luke....the all assume Luke was there because it was what he was last know doing. His mission was to destroy it. And we see him in the film struggling with his decision to end the Jedi.

Its the same as with the “bomber” complaints. Even thou, as pointed out over and over, we see Tie Bombers in ESB bombing asteroids....and they dont have gravity like a planet not matter what space worm lives in them....


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[YoNoSe]

Imagine how Snikt felt!!

Ah, the silver lining...

 

[Python]

Its the same as with the “bomber” complaints. Even thou, as pointed out over and over, we see Tie Bombers in ESB bombing asteroids....and they dont have gravity like a planet not matter what space worm lives in them....

Well everything is affected by Gravity in the same way. A big enough asteroid will have gravity to some degree. Same can be said of a large vessel, but the Dreadnought wasn't that big. Regarding the comparison between the bombers in TLJ, and Tie bombers. Tie bombers use some kind of Plasma looking projectile, and said projectile leaves the ship vertically at an instantly high speed. This makes it easy to assume that it has been fired downwards. In TLJ, the whole scene was set up to look more like a WW2 bomber, it's more Like Memphis Belle than ESB. If the bombs were also fired downwards, which has to be the obvious assumption (after a production oversight anyway) Then said bombs were engineered to act more like they were being pulled down by gravity.

 

[loki2371]

Well everything is affected by Gravity in the same way. A big enough asteroid will have gravity to some degree. Same can be said of a large vessel, but the Dreadnought wasn't that big. Regarding the comparison between the bombers in TLJ, and Tie bombers. Tie bombers use some kind of Plasma looking projectile, and said projectile leaves the ship vertically at an instantly high speed. This makes it easy to assume that it has been fired downwards. In TLJ, the whole scene was set up to look more like a WW2 bomber, it's more Like Memphis Belle than ESB. If the bombs were also fired downwards, which has to be the obvious assumption (after a production oversight anyway) Then said bombs were engineered to act more like they were being pulled down by gravity.

Good post. The Bomber thing is discussed to death.

But to reiterate, you are correct about the Tie Bombers. They don't drop bombs. They use either concussion missiles or proton torpedoes. They are self propelled and "launched/fired" at their target. Not dropped on their target like traditional bombers. Anyone who bothers to take 2 minutes and do a google search can see this. The same goes for every other bomber we've come to know in Star Wars (not the ST) including the Rebels' Y-Wing.

I don't think Disney expected backlash over minute details as the scenes were just supposed to be eye candy. The dumb fans were simply expected to be giddy with oooing and aaahhing. Just like Lucas' only remark after seeing TLJ... "It was beautifully made". So much of this move has needed to be retconned and explained through the Novel, comics and guides that it is laughable. All are after thoughts with people trying to come up with explanations and the need to justify what happened on screen.

But whatever... It is what it is. But fans, both those that like and dislike, can't step away. Nor can Johnson in defending his bad choices that backfired and created even more backlash than he was prepared for. That's the legacy and effect SW has had on people.

 

[xipotec]

See here we are again....actually have been alive and seeing tir bomber for the first time in the theater....

NO ONE CARED how the bombers worked....and we certainty had ZERO info about how the worked then. All we saw was a light dropping....the explanations came much later .....when books were published explaining it.

Which is exactly what happened with the bombers in TLJ. (Explained as magnetic)

And thats the difference in what people expect from a SW movie now versus then. They want detailed explanations for everything. It has to be spelled out for audiences now.

The nit picking for TLJ was the worst I have ever seen in modern cinema.

If you didnt like that they did with the story or character fine...but getting into that level of nitpicking became a silly way to say you didnt like the story.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[loki2371]

See here we are again....actually have been alive and seeing tir bomber for the first time in the theater....

NO ONE CARED how the bombers worked....and we certainty had ZERO info about how the worked then. All we saw was a light dropping....the explanations came much later .....when books were published explaining it.

Which is exactly what happened with the bombers in TLJ. (Explained as magnetic)

And thats the difference in what people expect from a SW movie now versus then. They want detailed explanations for everything. It has to be spelled out for audiences now.

The nit picking for TLJ was the worst I have ever seen in modern cinema.

If you didnt like that they did with the story or character fine...but getting into that level of nitpicking became a silly way to say you didnt like the story.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

You brought it up my friend. And while no, at 5 (ANH) and 8 (ESB) seeing the OT on the big screen I wasn't concerned with details, at least the "bombs" dropped by the Tie Bomber were glowing blue indicating some sort of energy.

But also you do have to remember, it's not 1977 or the early 80's anymore. Star Wars was something no one had ever seen before. So people were amazed by the visuals and spectacle on screen. Of course everyone, old and young, were more forgiving. It set the tone for all action/scifi movies moving forward. In 2018 that's not the case anymore. We see movies with believable CGI characters, creatures, and resurrected species (Dinosaurs anyone) that are all very believable on screen. People today want to believe. They are not necessarily smarter, but less easily fooled and wowed by pretty scenes and explosions. Part of the problem with the PT was Lucas began to feel the need to explain things like "The Force", and hence we got midichlorians. Johnson thought he could go back and just have pretty things on the big screen. That doesn't work anymore.

I'm happy for those that can somehow enjoy TLJ and overlook all it's problems. Unfortunately, that is not me....

 

[ajp4mgs]

Thanks for this . I understand people dislike this film, but more and more often, I see a constant retread of complaints about the story that have direct answers in the films them selves. It almost seems like an echo chamber of pile on complaints that have answers if you just paid attention to the film.

It was stated plainly the map was to the Jedi temple....NOT to Luke....the all assume Luke was there because it was what he was last know doing. His mission was to destroy it. And we see him in the film struggling with his decision to end the Jedi.

Its the same as with the “bomber” complaints. Even thou, as pointed out over and over, we see Tie Bombers in ESB bombing asteroids....and they dont have gravity like a planet not matter what space worm lives in them....


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Yeah, it's the piling on of complaints (and nitpicking, as you pointed out later) that get more and more frustrating for me. Some of them are silly enough to just laugh at. But some of the ones that get repeated the most eventually get too irritating to be amusing. It's almost as if when someone makes a criticism of the ST (especially TLJ), a whole bunch of people jump to echo it without actually taking the time to think it through or recognize SW context.

As you alluded to, take the objections to faulty science:

No one is bothered by the fact that the OT established that there's sound in space (when there shouldn't be), because we understand that fantasy movies like/need to play around with science occasionally (the concept of hyperspace, anyone?) in order to entertain. But when TLJ uses questionable science to propel parts of the story, you'd think from the complaints about it that this was the most intellectually-offensive thing ever put on screen! Yeah, because I'm sure George Lucas spent a lot of time analyzing the amount of energy it would take to propel a vessel to the speed of light. And even today with superhero movies that seem to be loved by everyone . . . if those movies were to get picked apart for flawed application of science, it'd be endless. But no one cares; nor should they.

So, space wizards with lightsabers slicing things (even though one served as a blunt instrument on the skiff in ROTJ where no one got sliced by it . . . somehow)? No problem. Bombs dropping in space, though? WHAT THE ****!!??? WHAT A PIECE OF ****!!

It goes on and on, too. Same types of complaints, same types of criticisms. The same avoidance of context, the same lack of objectivity. There are plenty of things wrong with TLJ, but it's not like it's the first Star Wars film to have flaws. I consider ANH and ESB to be as flawless as I'd ever need a space-based fantasy movie to be. But after that? The prequels, especially? Come on!!

 

[JAWS]

See here we are again....actually have been alive and seeing tir bomber for the first time in the theater....

NO ONE CARED how the bombers worked....and we certainty had ZERO info about how the worked then. All we saw was a light dropping....the explanations came much later .....when books were published explaining it.

Which is exactly what happened with the bombers in TLJ. (Explained as magnetic)

And thats the difference in what people expect from a SW movie now versus then. They want detailed explanations for everything. It has to be spelled out for audiences now.

The nit picking for TLJ was the worst I have ever seen in modern cinema.

If you didnt like that they did with the story or character fine...but getting into that level of nitpicking became a silly way to say you didnt like the story.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

I don't care for TLJ but when watching a SW film you have to accept SW science.

 

[spindrift]

You guys crack me up--SW "science" These is no science and zero logic in that universe. Go back to ANH- X wings banking and curving (opening the wings in space to attack position- what can that possibly do in a VACUUM?) in SPACE like there is an atmosphere- and sound . They can do ANYTHING and you just have to go along with it, stop thinking it has to apply to real science an any way

 

[TonTon]

You guys crack me up--SW "science" These is no science and zero logic in that universe. Go back to ANH- X wings banking and curving (opening the wings in space to attack position- what can that possibly do in a VACUUM?) in SPACE like there is an atmosphere- and sound . They can do ANYTHING and you just have to go along with it, stop thinking it has to apply to real science an any way

I think that’s exactly what Jaws meant by SW Science.

 

[Prime Clone]

First peek inside the sacred Jedi texts (courtesy of Marvel's Poe Dameron series):

 

[e30ernest]

Good post. The Bomber thing is discussed to death.

I always assumed that the bombs were pushed downwards by their launchers, rather than just simply falling away.

That said, SW ships do have artificial gravity, maybe the bombs are initially accelerated by that artificial gravity within the ship, or attracted by the artificial gravity of the target ship.

Anyway... I found that trying to find scientific reason on a SW film is a futile exercise. If something doesn't obey our laws of physics, some fan will go out and rant, if you try to find a scientific connection, another fan would come and say "leave science out of my Star Wars! It's a fantasy movie, not a sci-fi film!".