WATCHMEN Movie Discussion (SPOILERS allowed)!

[Bannister]

Well, thank God I had the pair of you here.

 

[IrishJedi]

I just hate it that the BO is so much like a horse race anymore...if it doesn't grab a big wad right out of the gate, it's dismissed as a failure and discarded to make room for the next forgettable piece of crap.

That's true. But what makes it even more annoying is that so many fans apparently feel the need to use the box office as a barometer to validate their own taste.

 

[EVILFACE]

Box Office returns is just a fun thing to watch. It's funny watching some trash movie make money while other "oscar this and that" flick crash and burn. Or see two similar movies go in oposite directions.

 

[DinoLast]

Three films that did not get great Box Office results.
Blade Runner,The Shawshank Redemption and It's a wonderful life.

 

[IrishJedi]

Box Office returns is just a fun thing to watch. It's funny watching some trash movie make money while other "oscar this and that" flick crash and burn. Or see two similar movies go in oposite directions.

I don't disagree with that at all. It's just when people point at box office as validation for the movies they like... or vice versa for the ones they don't. That tact is beyond laughable, imho.

 

[Entropy]

Three films that did not get great Box Office results.
Blade Runner,The Shawshank Redemption and It's a wonderful life.

Don't forget "Stop or My Mom Will Shoot".

 

[DinoLast]

Don't forget "Stop or My Mom Will Shoot".

My bad. How could I forget such a great classic

 

[Dusty]

Tell me if I'm wrong but didn't Doctor Manhattan change his mind about human life?
To quote Doctor M 'Exposing this plot, we destroy any chance of peace'. Then he destroys Rorschach to prevent him from revealing Vendit's plan. Doctor Manhattan also says that he strongly doubts Rorschach will reach civilisation, I'm sure he's referring to the journal.
So IMO I think he did help save the world but then leaves it in humanites hand for the future, knowing Ozy's utopia will not last forever

He says that in the book because I think he didn't want to outright tell the others that he killed Rorschach. Remember, he's the only one who sees Roschach die in the book... there wasn't the overly dramatic "NoooOOoooOooooo" scene from Nite Owl that was in the movie (he was busy getting it on and cuddling with Laurie in the book). "I strongly doubt Roschach will reach civilization" is Dr. M's way of saying that Rorschach is dead/will die. Also, it's classic irony because at the end, Roschach DOES reach civilization, in the form of his journal.

At least, that's how I always interpreted it...

Also, Dr. M is for sure a man... maybe a 'super' man who has figured out how to manipulate atomic and sub-atomic particles with is mind, but a man none-the-less.

 

[tylerdurden]

Three films that did not get great Box Office results.
Blade Runner,The Shawshank Redemption and It's a wonderful life.

not forgetting fight club, the thing and the mist.

 

[plasmid303]

At least, that's how I always interpreted it...

Also, Dr. M is for sure a man... maybe a 'super' man who has figured out how to manipulate atomic and sub-atomic particles with is mind, but a man none-the-less.

I've been wondering for a while: Can Doc Manhattan rearrange himself on a quantum level to resemble anything relative to his atomic mass and mass density? If he can and chooses to adopt a form resembling a human male, is it because what's left of Osterman wishes to or because it would keep public shock and abhorrence to a relative low and by extension would be the most logical choice for Manhattan (not Osterman)?

If the former is true, then Dusty's interpretation makes the most sense (to me), and Manhattan is certainly a man. If the latter is true, then Manhattan would otherwise have no problem with altering himself to look like a dog, an alien, whatever..

It's been a while since I've read the graphic novel, so pardon me if I've forgotten any passages in the book that explains this.

 

[DinoLast]

I've been wondering for a while: Can Doc Manhattan rearrange himself on a quantum level to resemble anything relative to his atomic mass and mass density? If he can and chooses to adopt a form resembling a human male, is it because what's left of Osterman wishes to or because it would keep public shock and abhorrence to a relative low and by extension would be the most logical choice for Manhattan (not Osterman)?

If the former is true, then Dusty's interpretation makes the most sense (to me), and Manhattan is certainly a man. If the latter is true, then Manhattan would otherwise have no problem with altering himself to look like a dog, an alien, whatever..

It's been a while since I've read the graphic novel, so pardon me if I've forgotten any passages in the book that explains this.

Well he still keeps his form when he is alone on Mars.
Also he does display human emotions, like attraction to the opposite sex, and anger when he was having the TV interview.
I see him as a godlike man who was slowly losing touch with his own humanity.

 

[IrishJedi]

Also, Dr. M is for sure a man... maybe a 'super' man who has figured out how to manipulate atomic and sub-atomic particles with is mind, but a man none-the-less.

Okay. But even if I grant you that... how can he be the "world's smartest man" for mentioning something (human nature) that Edward Blake had figured out years earlier? Blake's the one who showed that to all of them (including Manhattan and Ozymandias) in the first place. In fact, that's the whole point of The Comedian persona: to become a parody (irony... a joke) of human nature and society.

I think you just have a crush on the Doc.

 

[DinoLast]

Doctor Manhattan himself, calls Ozymandias 'The worlds smartest man'.

I think the term man, is representative of HomoSapians.
Doctor Manhattan has evolved into something beyond that description.
That's one of the things about Watchman that I love, it can start debates that can last for years.

 

[Dusty]

Okay. But even if I grant you that... how can he be the "world's smartest man" for mentioning something (human nature) that Edward Blake had figured out years earlier? Blake's the one who showed that to all of them (including Manhattan and Ozymandias) in the first place. In fact, that's the whole point of The Comedian persona: to become a parody (irony... a joke) of human nature and society.

I think you just have a crush on the Doc.

maybe... I do like Billy Crudup a lot

He's the smartest, not for REALIZING it (most of us realize it at some level), but for deciding to leave well-enough alone and try to find his own happiness without getting all up in everyone's business Fortunately for him, he has a convenient way to escape. The Comedian could have escaped too, but he chose not to because he's a classic narcisist- which ultimately caused him to live a life full of regrets (not being able to get to know his daughter is a big one) and died for it, as he knew he would. That's not very smart.

Veidt is also not very smart for thinking he can make any sort of difference on a grand scale. Sure and it took some great brains to think up and pull off that scheme, and he may have helped avoid a nuclear war for now, but at what cost and for how long? And will the war after Rorschach's journal be WORSE? Maybe it would be better to have had that first war?

"It would be a stronger world, a stronger loving world, to die in."

 

[Dusty]

That's one of the things about Watchman that I love, it can start debates that can last for years.

Yep, the book is great for that. However, I think some of the changes they made to the ending of the movie cancels much of that discussion out, which is my main beef with it. For example, just the instances we've been talking about - if you had ONLY seen the movie, we'd not be debating that stuff

 

[EVILFACE]

I've been wondering for a while: Can Doc Manhattan rearrange himself on a quantum level to resemble anything relative to his atomic mass and mass density? If he can and chooses to adopt a form resembling a human male, is it because what's left of Osterman wishes to or because it would keep public shock and abhorrence to a relative low and by extension would be the most logical choice for Manhattan (not Osterman)?

If the former is true, then Dusty's interpretation makes the most sense (to me), and Manhattan is certainly a man. If the latter is true, then Manhattan would otherwise have no problem with altering himself to look like a dog, an alien, whatever..

It's been a while since I've read the graphic novel, so pardon me if I've forgotten any passages in the book that explains this.

It's is prolly how he remembers himself. Kinda like Moore's take on Swamp Thing, where it turns out Alec Holland didn't turn into a plant monster, but a plant that thought it was Alec Holland.

 

[Darthrazz]

I think Dr. Manahattan was still a man, but slowly losing interest in being a man or part of mankind. Pretty much like a child will eventually outgrow his need for a pacifier or play with toys, Dr. Manhattan had evolved past his need for human involvement. I think that he had reached the "next level or plain" of his existence. To use a line from Ground Hog Day-" He became a God, but not the God." Irish is right, The Comedian , for all his flaws, realized far in advance of Dr. Manhattan or Ozymandius, that humanity was lost.

 

[The Mike]

Doctor Manhattan himself, calls Ozymandias 'The worlds smartest man'.

Dr. Manhattan sees himself as more than. He was also using the term in that show down as a condesending term "Even you the World's Smartest Man pose no more threat to me than the World's Smartest Termite". It is a way to show that he poses absolutely no physical threat to him.

He's the smartest, not for REALIZING it (most of us realize it at some level), but for deciding to leave well-enough alone and try to find his own happiness.

Dr. Manhattan didn't leave to find his happiness he leaves because he finds the complications and dramatic aspects of the humanity to be taxing. While Laurie shows him a renewed interest in humanity, dealing with Veidt and hearing the plan kind of snaps him into the idea that even in peace there must be lies and death. As he spends the entire comic line talking about seeing things that occur in miliseconds and walking on the sun's surface, he has transended basic humanity. I took his leaving as an unfortunate realization that once he began to care about humanity again, this occurs and shows him why he "checked out" to begin with.

Another thing about Dr. Manhattan is that he can see into the future and past of not only himself but those around him with direct contact. He saw the destruction of New York even with the interference. He knew that Dan and Laurie would have gone out in the Owl Ship and he'd have to take her to Mars. He would have instantly known that Rorschach and Dan would have taken a detour to the New Frontiersmen on their way to Veidt, by touching Laurie he'd have known about not only her past but her future with Dan, I don't believe that his vision stopped when he left when he could see things that occurred to her before he even knew her. Time is different to him, so you really think that Dan and Laurie never discussed Rorschach or the Journal?

He knew, he also knew that a man who writes anything can be questioned, disproven while a dead man's work is martyred and held in a higher regard most of the time. I believe he killed Rorschach because he knew the journal would go forward and if the vigilante known as Rorschach and Walter Kovacs both went missing, that whatever he left behind would be taken with a little more seriousness because one of the last lines is his thoughts on what Veidt is doing and that he might die because of the confrontation. He did it in a poetic kind of way because he also knew that Rorschach would never compromise himself to go along with the plan as the others had and left because it was the final nail in the coffin towards humanity. Veidt's plan would come undone or have the ability to but it'd come from the words of a man who may or may not be believed which goes with quote that Rorschach made about "Sounds unbelievable, must be true". The test of humanity to believe it or disguard because of the source, let's be honest Veidt's word at face value will be worth more than Walter Kovacs just with the general jaded thought of society.

Or at least that is how I read it.

 

[Dusty]

Dr. Manhattan didn't leave to find his happiness he leaves because he finds the complications and dramatic aspects of the humanity to be taxing. While Laurie shows him a renewed interest in humanity, dealing with Veidt and hearing the plan kind of snaps him into the idea that even in peace there must be lies and death. As he spends the entire comic line talking about seeing things that occur in miliseconds and walking on the sun's surface, he has transended basic humanity. I took his leaving as an unfortunate realization that once he began to care about humanity again, this occurs and shows him why he "checked out" to begin with.

Another thing about Dr. Manhattan is that he can see into the future and past of not only himself but those around him with direct contact. He saw the destruction of New York even with the interference. He knew that Dan and Laurie would have gone out in the Owl Ship and he'd have to take her to Mars. He would have instantly known that Rorschach and Dan would have taken a detour to the New Frontiersmen on their way to Veidt, by touching Laurie he'd have known about not only her past but her future with Dan, I don't believe that his vision stopped when he left when he could see things that occurred to her before he even knew her. Time is different to him, so you really think that Dan and Laurie never discussed Rorschach or the Journal?

He knew, he also knew that a man who writes anything can be questioned, disproven while a dead man's work is martyred and held in a higher regard most of the time. I believe he killed Rorschach because he knew the journal would go forward and if the vigilante known as Rorschach and Walter Kovacs both went missing, that whatever he left behind would be taken with a little more seriousness because one of the last lines is his thoughts on what Veidt is doing and that he might die because of the confrontation. He did it in a poetic kind of way because he also knew that Rorschach would never compromise himself to go along with the plan as the others had and left because it was the final nail in the coffin towards humanity. Veidt's plan would come undone or have the ability to but it'd come from the words of a man who may or may not be believed which goes with quote that Rorschach made about "Sounds unbelievable, must be true". The test of humanity to believe it or disguard because of the source, let's be honest Veidt's word at face value will be worth more than Walter Kovacs just with the general jaded thought of society.

Or at least that is how I read it.

I don't particularly disagree with any of that, as everything is open to interpretation. And sorry, I didn't mean 'happiness' really, but it is *kinda* like he left for his peace-of-mind, which could mean happiness in a way. He realized he couldn't do anything and he left. Smart man (or whatever he is )

My MAIN point is that NONE of that is shown in the movie. In the movie, Dr. M's choice just doesn't have the same resonance as in the book, as the movie makes it seem like he's leaving and killing Rorschach to SAVE HUMANITY - and himself. Since they changed it and made the deaths Dr. M's fault, it's just not as powerful of a choice or message.

Plus, I know this has been beaten to death (forgive me, I haven't had time to read all the posts!), but why would something that Dr. M did (killed millions of people all over the world) be overlooked and forgiven if he's supposed to be an American? I just really can't understand why the screenwriters thought that was a good decision. If that really happened, Russia wouldn't even give us a chance to explain ourselves - they'd see the nuclear destruction of Moscow, rightly blame us (Veidt is an American after all), and continue with the plan that had already already set in motion - all before we could even make a defensive statement. The 'attack from outer space' ending makes SO MUCH more sense. Does anyone know the real reason why it was changed? "The audiences wouldn't go for it" line is total BS. The audience didn't go for the changed ending either! (most people I've talked to who hadn't read the book asked the same exact question I just did - about Dr. M being an American, why would that cause peace, etc) And the story and characters are already so 'out there' that what's a little sci-fi thrown in gonna harm? Besides, it would've looked really cool

Fine, I'm giving up again. I still like the book, there are just some things about the film that I can't reconcile, try as I might!

 

[The Mike]

The real reason it was changed is because Synder felt it would take up too much time to properly introduce the squid and all of that backstory. As it was the whole Watchmen story which could easily be 12-14 hours proper was severely cut down in the 2 hrs and 45 minutes.

As for the Dr. M idea, The Russians saw the destruction of Moscow and then New York minutes after. So the idea is that Dr. M is the larger threat and is even attacking his home country so they have to band together to try and handle it. If something from the US actually went Rogue it'd be perceived as a larger threat it'd be handled as such, think about terrorist groups that are based in the Middle East. We aren't destroying Pakistan to get Bin Laden even though the general thought is that he is there and we are even working with them to try and find him. Same kind of idea....they would work with us to try and stop the greater threat.

None of this deeper level things will ever be shown in the film because there isn't enough "time" to do it. After watching Under the Hood and the Black Freighter I could see in spades how much it would have helped the general population to have those interwoven into the actual film. I really wish Synder had actually filmed everything, released an abbridged version for the theaters and given us Watchmen proper on a set of DVDs or something similar.