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Fan-made as it may be, but this pretty much spells out an event that you seem to have missed:

Yeah, but see, when I discuss this series, I don't pull up Wiki for references? :dunno It has been a long time since I played Peace Walker, and honestly, it's a game that I don't care for very much. So, I'm not sure how much of that information was actually in the game, or if whether the authors just tried to fill in the blanks with their own assumptions.
 
Yeah, but see, when I discuss this series, I don't pull up Wiki for references? :dunno It has been a long time since I played Peace Walker, and honestly, it's a game that I don't care for very much. So, I'm not sure how much of that information was actually in the game, or if whether the authors just tried to fill in the blanks with their own assumptions.

wikia pages are very detailed & most of the time 99% accurate, much more accurate than wiki, because it's written by hardcore fans, not casual fans like you who's not 100% sure about what you are talking about because "it's been a while since i last played it". in fact most of the pages can be submitted as a thesis should one day literature programs accepts games & cartoons as research subjects. they pretty much knows every single codec & has tons of reference books on them, compared to your vagued memory on them.
 
Yeah, but see, when I discuss this series, I don't pull up Wiki for references? :dunno It has been a long time since I played Peace Walker, and honestly, it's a game that I don't care for very much. So, I'm not sure how much of that information was actually in the game, or if whether the authors just tried to fill in the blanks with their own assumptions.

Why are you so quick to refute Wiki references when some of them are very basic outlines of in-game events? Events that you can't even seem to recall on your own? Do I seriously need to look up the audio briefing file from Peace Walker on Youtube when I'm already pointing out established canon to streamline the discussion?

You were basing your argument on the established canon of MGS3 and PW together, not independently. If we're arguing only about MGS3 then yeah, I'd have given you leeway on the ambiguity of The Boss's motives, but PW pretty much spells it out in multiple Briefing Files. Shoddy as PW may have been in some of its execution, it made very clear-cut ideas about The Boss's life and the implications of her final wish towards Big Boss. It's the whole point of the friggin' AI singing "Sing A Song" at the end as it showed The Boss's self-sacrificing conviction and belief for a peaceful life.
 
wikia pages are very detailed & most of the time 99% accurate, much more accurate than wiki, because it's written by hardcore fans, not casual fans like you who's not 100% sure about what you are talking about because "it's been a while since i last played it". in fact most of the pages can be submitted as a thesis should one day literature programs accepts games & cartoons as research subjects. they pretty much knows every single codec & has tons of reference books on them, compared to your vagued memory on them.

You're one to talk. Maybe if you were a little more skilled at actually quoting information and not making a complete jackass out of yourself all the time, people would take you a little more seriously.
 
You're one to talk. Maybe if you were a little more skilled at actually quoting information and not making a complete jackass out of yourself all the time, people would take you a little more seriously.

coming from someone who quotes based off his memory and discrediting all the wiki & wikia pages dedicated to the series...

anyway we know how film both of you & snake stand on your beliefs. people who disagree with you even the slightest are always considered as trolls. and since both of you guys are old timers & holds lots of respect by the rest of the members your words carry more weight.
 
Why are you so quick to refute Wiki references when some of them are very basic outlines of in-game events? Events that you can't even seem to recall on your own? Do I seriously need to look up the audio briefing file from Peace Walker on Youtube when I'm already pointing out established canon to streamline the discussion?

You were basing your argument on the established canon of MGS3 and PW together, not independently. If we're arguing only about MGS3 then yeah, I'd have given you leeway on the ambiguity of The Boss's motives, but PW pretty much spells it out in multiple Briefing Files. Shoddy as PW may have been in some of its execution, it made very clear-cut ideas about The Boss's life and the implications of her final wish towards Big Boss. It's the whole point of the friggin' AI singing "Sing A Song" at the end as it showed The Boss's self-sacrificing conviction and belief for a peaceful life.

"See no PW, Hear no PW, Speak no PW."
 
Why are you so quick to refute Wiki references when some of them are very basic outlines of in-game events? Events that you can't even seem to recall on your own? Do I seriously need to look up the audio briefing file from Peace Walker on Youtube when I'm already pointing out established canon as a convenient streamlining the discussion?

You were basing your argument on the established canon of MGS3 and PW together, not independently. If we're arguing only about MGS3 then yeah, I'd have given you leeway on the ambiguity of The Boss's motives, but PW pretty much spells it out in multiple Briefing Files. Shoddy as PW may have been in some of its execution, it made very clear-cut ideas about The Boss's life and the implications of her final wish towards Big Boss. It's the whole point of the friggin' AI singing "Sing A Song" at the end as it showed The Boss's self-sacrificing conviction and belief for a peaceful life.

The only thing that I ever got from PW, was that Big Boss didn't want to follow in the Boss' footsteps. He didn't want to remain loyal to a country that would eventually sacrifice him for the greater good, so he chose to go on his own way, and to life on his own terms with Outer Heaven. Which is completely contrary to MGS 4's explanation, that Big Boss misunderstood The Boss's philosophy about to "unify the world", and he attempted to do it through armed conflict.

I'll give you this, maybe there was more to the briefing files than I remember. I'll probably look them up later (not on Wiki). But, PW certainly did add some unnecessary character retcons into the timeline.
 
coming from someone who quotes based off his memory and discrediting all the wiki & wikia pages dedicated to the series...

anyway we know how film both of you & snake stand on your beliefs. people who disagree with you even the slightest are always considered as trolls. and since both of you guys are old timers & holds lots of respect by the rest of the members your words carry more weight.

But, you are a troll...
 
@Solidus: Actually I agree with you on those, the only thing I'm refuting is The Boss's stance in imparting her sense of loyalty to Big Boss which I felt was very much mistaken. If The Boss had simply wanted Big Boss to live the life of a loyal soldier, she wouldn't have imparted that truth to him. She wanted to expose that truth to prevent him from living a similar life to hers as a loyal soldier under the exploit of a corrupt governing body, except he took it as literally waging war on the rest of America while making child soldiers out of war-torn nations.

12:05 to 19:30 details the events of The Boss's regret over a "failed" mission and how The Boss wanted America to be set back on its various projects to prevent further conflict:


I don't mind the idea of personal interpretations, but you specifically called out mine when I based my own assessment on established canon from both MGS3 and PW. I don't mind picking and choosing which stuff to ignore and better our experiences with the series, but the fact remains that you were refuting one of my claims as false without accounting for the details I derived from PW, which is still considered as a major part of Big Boss's story canon.

No offense but it just feels a little underhanded to call me out on my interpretation and then outright tell me that you couldn't remember the stuff I'm mentioning in PW since you weren't so keen on its retcons. :(
 
@Solidus: Actually I agree with you on those, the only thing I'm refuting is The Boss's stance in imparting her sense of loyalty to Big Boss which proved to be gravely false. If The Boss had simply wanted Big Boss to live the life of a loyal soldier, she wouldn't have imparted that truth to him. She wanted to expose that truth to prevent him from living a similar life to hers as a loyal soldier under the exploit of a corrupt governing body, except he took it as literally waging war on the rest of the America while making child soldiers out of war-torn nations.

12:05 to 19:30 details the events of The Boss's regret over a "failed" mission and how The Boss wanted America to be set back on its various projects to prevent further conflict:


The Boss said all that so you as the player/viewer knows more about the storyline... Also from a storyline point of view she would want the only living person she cares about knows the truth. She wanted Big Boss to end her life because she wants someone she trust & love do so, the same way Jesus wanted Judas to (apologize in advance as i know some people will call it blasphemy)
 
The only thing that I ever got from PW, was that Big Boss didn't want to follow in the Boss' footsteps. He didn't want to remain loyal to a country that would eventually sacrifice him for the greater good, so he chose to go on his own way, and to life on his own terms with Outer Heaven. Which is completely contrary to MGS 4's explanation, that Big Boss misunderstood The Boss's philosophy about to "unify the world", and he attempted to do it through armed conflict.

I'll give you this, maybe there was more to the briefing files than I remember. I'll probably look them up later (not on Wiki). But, PW certainly did add some unnecessary character retcons into the timeline.

People's point of view do change over time, we're talking about a 30-40years gap between MGS3/PW & MGS4... people get over stuffs and view things differently as time goes by as they gained more experience & insights.
 
I feel I should at least point out and perhaps this might clear up my stance on this: Big Boss believed that The Boss gave up on her life up until she died (her "life" being her personal feelings as an individual and not as an obedient soldier), in doing so she's a loyal soldier and a true patriot. She lied to her most beloved disciple, and herself, for the best of her country that betrayed her so many times before. Giving up on her life indirectly meant that she gave up on everything that she was imparting on Big Boss as her disciple. Big Boss holds the belief that The Boss betrayed him by putting down her gun and her entire personal life for the greater good (something he maintains that a soldier should never do in his willingness to maintain his individuality as a warrior).

He couldn't accept that and instead makes the decision that he will live his life the opposite way to her, in that he would rather stay loyal as a soldier, not to a country but to himself, and thus will never put down his gun. "Loyal to the end" doesn't mean being a hapless loyal soldier, it means being loyal to oneself and one's respective beliefs: be it as a soldier that fights on the whims of her country (The Boss) or as a person that fights for their own beliefs and individuality (Solid Snake). Big Boss didn't want to compromise his individuality, but he still wanted to act as a soldier of war and in doing so, we get the Big Boss that created Outer Heaven and decided that soldiers should be free from governments due to the kind of life that The Boss had suffered.
 
@Solidus: Actually I agree with you on those, the only thing I'm refuting is The Boss's stance in imparting her sense of loyalty to Big Boss which proved to be gravely false. If The Boss had simply wanted Big Boss to live the life of a loyal soldier, she wouldn't have imparted that truth to him. She wanted to expose that truth to prevent him from living a similar life to hers as a loyal soldier under the exploit of a corrupt governing body, except he took it as literally waging war on the rest of America while making child soldiers out of war-torn nations.

12:05 to 19:30 details the events of The Boss's regret over a "failed" mission and how The Boss wanted America to be set back on its various projects to prevent further conflict:


I don't mind the idea of personal interpretations, but you specifically called out mine when I based my own assessment on established canon from both MGS3 and PW. I don't mind picking and choosing which stuff to ignore and better our experiences with the series, but the fact remains that you were refuting one of my claims as false without accounting for the details I derived from PW, which is still considered as a major part of Big Boss's story canon.

No offense but it just feels a little underhanded to call me out on my interpretation and then outright tell me that you couldn't remember the stuff I'm mentioning in PW since you weren't so keen on its retcons. :(


Isn't that just your own assumption, though? Again, The Boss trained Big Boss in CQC. She was his mentor, and he had spent most his career as combat solider under her direction (prior to MGS 3). If she was in such deep, existential regret, then why would she even have a pupil in the first place? If you remember her quote from MGS 3, "One must die and one must live. No victory, no defeat. "The survivor will carry on the fight. It is our destiny, and the one who survives will inherit the title of Boss. And the one who inherits the title of Boss will face an existence of endless battle." So, from that alone, she expected Big Boss to carry on her legacy in the battlefield.

That was an interesting briefing file, though. It did sound like she was pretty remorseful about what transpired after her mission (I'll give you that one :lol). But, she even says in that very recording, "above all, I must remain loyal to the end". So, it's wrong to generalize that snippet of recording, to assume that she just completely fell out of love with America, and wanted Big Boss to turn his back on his country. Regardless of how much she was screwed-over, she valued loyalty above all else, but Big Boss chose a different path for his life.

You do bring up a good point about the established canon, though. Peace Walker has plot holes that contradict the revelations from MGS 4. In Eva's debriefing to Solid Snake, she mentioned that Big Boss formed Outer Heaven as a means to accomplish The Boss' will. While in Peace Walker, it's essentially said, that Big Boss formed Outer Heaven by rejecting the Boss' sense of sacrifice by "putting down her gun". So, I guess if we have to discuss MGS, it would be good to distinguish the canon from MGS 4 from that of Peace Walker's. For all intents and purposes, it does feel like this series has gone off in an alternate timeline for the last several years :lol.
 
You do bring up a good point about the established canon, though. Peace Walker has plot holes that contradict the revelations from MGS 4. In Eva's debriefing to Solid Snake, she mentioned that Big Boss formed Outer Heaven as a means to accomplish The Boss' will. While in Peace Walker, it's essentially said, that Big Boss formed Outer Heaven by rejecting the Boss' sense of sacrifice by "putting down her gun". So, I guess if we have to discuss MGS, it would be good to separate the canon from MGS 4 from that of Peace Walker's. For all intents and purposes, it does feel like this series has gone off in an alternate timeline for the last several years :lol.

I should mention that Big Boss outright says that he misinterpreted The Boss's will though. The misinterpretation being that she wanted him to maintain his own beliefs and individuality. Big Boss felt she betrayed herself because she wasn't true to her feelings, despite the fact that she kept insisting this on Big Boss. In this regard, Big Boss DID attempt to embody her will for people to be free from exploitation, but the problem is he embodied it in a radical way that also ignores her peace-loving side (you simply cannot argue this part considering the very opposite stance of Big Boss and The Boss even in MGS3 and MGS4). It's not that PW contradicts MGS4, it just added more depth to the reasoning behind The Boss's will and self-sacrifice.

You say that PW contradicts MGS4 but on what grounds? PW establishes Big Boss's very obvious misinterpretation of The Boss's will. He rejects her as a soldier who died for her country, but not the ideals that she taught him as a soldier with a retained sense of individuality and direction in his life. There's no erroneous contradiction there in regards to what was shown in MGS4, and you seem to be refuting my claims out of dissatisfaction over PW's execution of its story.

Big Boss declares a realization of The Boss's true intentions and final wish. He wouldn't be saying that "the world would be better off without snakes" if his understanding of The Boss's wishes revolved around succeeding her as a soldier bound by endless conflict. You can't tell me that The Boss WISHED for Big Boss to carry that same legacy when he blatantly admits that she desired peace more than anything else. :lol
 
I should mention that Big Boss outright says that he misinterpreted The Boss's will though. The misinterpretation being that she wanted him to maintain his own beliefs and individuality. Big Boss felt she betrayed herself because she wasn't true to her feelings, despite the fact that she kept insisting this on Big Boss. In this regard, Big Boss DID attempt to embody her will for people to be free from exploitation, but the problem is he embodied it in a radical way that also ignores her peace-loving side (you simply cannot argue this part considering the very opposite stance of Big Boss and The Boss even in MGS3 and MGS4). It's not that PW contradicts MGS4, it just added more depth to the reasoning behind The Boss's will and self-sacrifice.

You say that PW contradicts MGS4 but on what grounds?
PW establishes Big Boss's very obvious misinterpretation of The Boss's will. He rejects her as a soldier who died for her country, but not the ideals that she taught him as a soldier with a retained sense of individuality and direction in his life. There's no erroneous contradiction there in regards to what was shown in MGS4, and you seem to be refuting my claims out of dissatisfaction over PW's execution of its story.

I'll just quote what I already said:

In Eva's debriefing to Solid Snake, she mentioned that Big Boss formed Outer Heaven as a means to accomplish The Boss' will. While in Peace Walker, it's essentially said, that Big Boss formed Outer Heaven by rejecting the Boss' sense of sacrifice by "putting down her gun".

In MGS 4, Big Boss' entire purpose of creating Outer Heaven was to fulfill the Boss' will of unifying the world. Big Boss believed that the world had to be unified by force, whereas, she believed in leaving the world as it was, and eventually nations would revolve their own problems. He never rejected The Boss in MGS 4, and in fact, his entire purpose for existing was for The Boss (even though he did misinterpret her will). Therein lies the apparent contradiction with Peace Walker.
 
In MGS 4, Big Boss' entire purpose of creating Outer Heaven was to fulfill the Boss' will of unifying the world. Big Boss believed that the world had to be unified by force, whereas, she believed in leaving the world as it was, and and eventually nations would revolve their own problems. He never rejected her in MGS 4, as he did in Peace Walker - and therein lies the apparent contradiction.

Wait what???? Okay sorry but that's where you completely lost me? Unifying the world? You literally idealized Big Boss's creation of Outer Heaven as part of The Boss's will for peace in the most wrong way possible. Big Boss created Outer Heaven for the sake of giving soldiers the freedom that they have been deprived of by corrupt governments. He used it in an attempt to take down Zero's plot of a controlled world through proxies and manipulation, a world that was made with the intention of unifying nations through purposeful deprivation of free will. I don't get where you're getting the idea that Big Boss somehow wanted to unify the world through Outer Heaven when the very point of Outer Heaven was to give back soldiers their individuality, far from the notion of unifying the world.

The whole point of Big Boss's blunder was his respective conflict with Zero by literally building Outer Heaven. Big Boss wanted to embody the part of her will that focused on her ideals as a soldier with a code. Big Boss assumed The Boss wanted a world where soldiers were freed from controlling governments, not to "unify the world". PW doesn't contradict this by illustrating that Big Boss simply rejects The Boss's personal resolve as a self-sacrificing soldier that died for the greater good (a part of her will that he never even understood until MGS4 mind you), rather what he took as the central part of her will was the notion of preserving a soldier's freedom, integrity and sense of self.

PW literally shows the first step in how Big Boss misinterpreted The Boss's will by rejecting her self-sacrificing nature (and in turn her desire for peace in a unified world). MGS4 makes a big point about his ignorance of this aspect in The Boss's will (something that you can't deny with the direction that Big Boss took with the very formation of Outer Heaven), and PW simply spelled it out in full by showing how he rejected the life that befell upon her as a loyal soldier in favor of a life that freed and benefited soldiers instead.

EDIT - Fixed some parts for clarity.
 
Wait what???? Okay sorry but that's where you completely lost me? Unifying the world? You literally idealized Big Boss's creation of Outer Heaven as part of The Boss's will for peace in the most wrong way possible. Big Boss created Outer Heaven for the sake of giving soldiers the freedom that they have been deprived of by corrupt governments. He used it in an attempt to take down Zero's plot of a controlled world through proxies and manipulation, a world that was made with the intention of unifying nations through purposeful deprivation of free will. I don't get where you're getting the idea that Big Boss somehow wanted to unify the world through Outer Heaven when the very point of Outer Heaven was to give back soldiers their individuality, far from the notion of unifying the world.

The whole point of Big Boss's blunder was his respective conflict with Zero by literally building Outer Heaven. Big Boss wanted to embody the part of her will that focused on her ideals as a soldier with a code. Big Boss assumed The Boss wanted a world where soldiers were freed from controlling governments, not to "unify the world". PW doesn't contradict this by illustrating that Big Boss simply rejects The Boss's personal resolve for peace through self-sacrifice (a part of her will that he never even understood until MGS4 mind you), rather what he took as the central part of her will was to preserve a soldier's integrity and sense of self.

Regardless of Big Boss' war against Zero, wasn't his ultimate goal to unify the world in war, by disestablishing governments and making everyone green collared :dunno. I gathered that they both essentially had a disagreement on how to carry out the Boss' will and that eventually lead to their split.
 
They all look close enough for Hot Toys to pass their standard requirements:

1435143-thesnakes.jpg

No they don't. It's like saying we could use a Terminator Arnold headsculpt to pass off as a Conan. Snake never looked the same in any game, you just posted photographic evidence of that.
 
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Regardless of Big Boss' war against Zero, wasn't his ultimate goal to unify the world in war, by disestablishing governments and making everyone green collared :dunno. I gathered that they both essentially had a disagreement on how to carry out the Boss' will and that eventually lead to their split.
Not quite, he wanted to fulfill The Boss's will of freedom of control (soldiers specifically) by fighting the good fight for the soldiers that were being exploited by corrupt governments. His desire of removing governments falls squarely against Zero and nothing else. To illustrate:

The Boss's Will: Desire for peace/unity + Desire for soldiers' free will = Give BB himself freedom from being a loyal soldier + Unifying the world through purposeful reformation and not through conflict

Big Boss's interpretation: Desire for soldiers' free will - Desire for peace/unity -> "Give BB himself freedom from being a loyal soldier" -> Give soldiers freedom from loyalty to a nation (Outer Heaven)

Zero's interpretation: Desire for peace/unity - Desire for soldiers' free will -> "Unifying the world through purposeful reformation and not through conflict" -> Unify the world through micro-managing proxies (The A.I. Patriots)

Again, PW doesn't contradict any of the above, and that's literally how MGS4 framed Big Boss's interpretation of The Boss's will especially considering how much MGS4 showed that Outer Heaven purposefully played on a world that is free from the system with little sense of actual peace and unity around the world (how else are the soldiers supposed to thrive when they're purposely forced to find more reasons to fight?) In the end, Big Boss's Outer Heaven went south when he literally forced child soldiers into a system of endless conflict under what is essentially a tyrannical rule of his own (the very kind of oppression he was trying to avoid). Zero's A.I. Patriots despite carrying on Zero's intentions, ended up creating a system of endless conflict as means of producing a stronger economy to ensure their global control over various nations (the very kind of conflict he was trying to avoid).
 
Sometimes fan wikis can be accurate, sometimes they are not. The God of War wiki claims Kratos is smiling on the cover of God of War: Saga, which I brought up on the wiki and no one has refuted...because they're wrong, and they know it :lol Some others can be accurate though, like the MGS wiki at times.
img_0814.jpg


these guys would like to have a word with you
This is exactly why we believe you're a troll :slap there is no resemblance between any of those head sculpts. You seriously think Jill and Sheva use the same head sculpt as Leon and Chris, the former of whom was made in 2008?
coming from someone who quotes based off his memory and discrediting all the wiki & wikia pages dedicated to the series...

anyway we know how film both of you & snake stand on your beliefs. people who disagree with you even the slightest are always considered as trolls. and since both of you guys are old timers & holds lots of respect by the rest of the members your words carry more weight.
Except not really. Only if they disagree and are being an *******, like you. I've disagreed with them at times, and we're still friends.
No they don't. It's like saying we could use a Terminator Arnold headsculpt to pass of as a Conan. Snake never looks the same in any game, you just posted photographic evidence of that.
Exactly yeah. Especially with Liquid, who has no facial hair unlike the others. The only two that could pass are Old Big Boss, and Solidus Snake - but it's not enough.

I'm gonna just say this, at this point, it's hard to make any sense of The Boss's will and Big Boss's interpretation of it. There are numerous contradictions, and plot holes with it. The Boss's will has also been bastardized horribly by Peace Walker, and Big Boss's interpretation too. Nothing against you Ronri, but I do agree with Solidus. However, you still bring up some good points.
 
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