1/6 Hot Toys - MMS 320 - Star Wars Ep.VII - Kylo Ren

[SNIKT1950]

Then I will leave you to your own devices.

You made some good points, man. You just can't convince me that there is no depth to the Star Wars saga. I can't agree with that.

 

[Wor-Gar]

You guys are just jealous

I know I am.

 

[Asta]

As with many stories, Star Wars can be whatever you want it to be.

But it doesn't mean it was created to be that way.

 

[Wor-Gar]

This debate is definitely both: one who sees it only his way, and the truth behind how it was created.

That's why Star Wars works so well: People can project belief systems on it, which in turn give it gravitas it never really had.

 

[SNIKT1950]

This debate is definitely both: one who sees it only his way, and the truth behind how it was created.

Nah, Lucas didn't set out to make a meaningless popcorn movie.

 

[cmiller99]

I don't know, I thought he did? I might be mistaken though.

Maybe not a meaningless popcorn movie, but definitely not some deep work of fine art.

 

[Asta]

This debate is definitely both: one who sees it only his way, and the truth behind how it was created.

That's why Star Wars works so well: People can project belief systems on it, which in turn give it gravitas it never really had.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Nah, Lucas didn't set out to make a meaningless popcorn movie.

Hey, I'm not on ignore. Good man.

But one of Lucas' goals was exactly that -- he said it many times, he made the ultimate popcorn movie. No, he never said meaningless. Because he had honed down the history of storytelling into a classic structure (based on Campbell's work) that would soon become something called The Hero's Journey for Hollywood. He wanted a "modern day fairy tale of heroes and villains" -- that was his true goal, the one he himself said in 1977. He made a movie with heroes for kids in an era where all real heroes seemed to disappoint. He wanted to make a 'modern mythology'. And he did. Based on a compilation of history's mythologies... and he added "high tech" for the space generation. That's all its ever been -- a space opera.

 

[Asta]

Nah, Lucas didn't set out to make a meaningless popcorn movie.

He couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon so he created his own homage to the pulp cliffhanger serials of the 1930s and 1940s (and to an extent into the 1950s with his nods to the Rocket Men).

He repeated the same formula with Indiana Jones, drawing inspiration from the D*ck Tracy serials, Zorro Rides Again, The Tiger Woman, and so on.

 

[SNIKT1950]

Hey, I'm not on ignore. Good man.

But one of Lucas' goals was exactly that -- he said it many times, he made the ultimate popcorn movie. No, he never said meaningless. Because he had honed down the history of storytelling into a classic structure (based on Campbell's work) that would soon become something called The Hero's Journey for Hollywood. He wanted a "modern day fairy tale of heroes and villains" -- that was his true goal, the one he himself said in 1977. He made a movie with heroes for kids in an era where all real heroes seemed to disappoint. He wanted to make a modern mythology. And he did. Based on a compilation of history's mythology.

The problem with citing Lucas saying "I wasn't trying to make a great movie" is that no self-respecting filmmaker will ever really say "I'm currently working on the next Best Picture triple-crown winner." You wouldn't be able to take such pretentiousness seriously. Spielberg does the same with Raiders, claiming he was aiming for B-movie status. These guys are just humble. Coppola's the worst one. I've seen him say in various interviews he thought Apocalypse Now wouldn't work and definitely not resonate.

 

[hokietwo]

He couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon so he created his own homage to the pulp cliffhanger serials of the 1930s and 1940s (and to an extent into the 1950s with his nods to the Rocket Men).

Nail. Head. George owes everything that Star Wars is to Francis F. Coppola, had FFC not have had so much weight to tell, not ask Fox they are making that movie it would never have been made. It was conceived by the studios as a serial rocket man movie and in the end George finally saw the true value in the series for the merch. Once Star Wars hit, GLs focus was on how do I franchise and ultimately trancend this epic into a merchandise machine for generations. Oh I know, dancing ****ing bears.

Fast forward 16 years from Jedi, and we saw that full steam from the PT **** we got spoon fed because the money is and was in the figures. I cannot give George any credit for penning a script that transcends anything more than for what is, a space opera of special effects tipping the cap to his favorite sci fi influences.

 

[Asta]

The Lightning, the forerunner of Darth Vader and Kylo Ren:

The Fighting Devil Dogs, 1938.

 

[Wor-Gar]

no self-respecting filmmaker will ever really say "I'm currently working on the next Best Picture triple-crown winner."

Trump and Kanye West would if they made movies. So would Orson Wells.

But Lucas never said he wasn't trying to make a great movie; he was trying to make a modern myth for kids. He said it, time and time again, in every magazine of the time (1977). Back then, the "popcorn movie" wasn't a derogatory term like it is now. It was fresh; felt fun and enjoyable -- like the old days (meaning the 50's). Lucas made a genuine feel-good movie during a time when kids went to see "Marathon Man" and "All The Presidents Men" for entertainment. Thing was, it wasn't just for kids....everyone embraced it.

Maybe the best way to look at it is this: before the public embraced it, Lucas showed it to many people, including Spielberg and apparently they all felt sorry for him and didn't know what to say because they thought it was a bad Disney movie. Granted not all the effects were there, but still... if it was brilliance, certainly the artists of the time would have recognized it as such back then.

 

[Asta]

Nail. Head.

And to hit the nail even harder, Lucas gave the game away with the title crawl at the beginning of Star Wars:

Though it didn't originally have the subtitle since Fox apparently thought it would be confusing!

 

[SNIKT1950]

Trump and Kanye West would if they made movies. So would Orson Wells.

But Lucas never said he wasn't trying to make a great movie; he was trying to make a modern myth for kids. He said it, time and time again, in every magazine of the time (1977). Back then, the "popcorn movie" wasn't a derogatory term like it is now. It was fresh; felt fun and enjoyable -- like the old days (meaning the 50's). Lucas made a genuine feel-good movie during a time when kids went to see "Marathon Man" and "All The Presidents Men" for entertainment. Thing was, it wasn't just for kids....everyone embraced it.

Maybe the best way to look at it is this: before the public embraced it, Lucas showed it to many people, including Spielberg and apparently they all felt sorry for him and didn't know what to say because they thought it was a bad Disney movie. Granted not all the effects were there, but still... if it was brilliance, certainly the artists of the time would have recognized it as such back then.

Spielberg liked the first cut (that the original editor cut). I think the others didn't - not because it lacked depth, but rather because they weren't ready for that type of film.

There's a story I read about Harrison Ford watching the first cut for Empire with Lucas & Peter Hyams. When it was over, Hyams turned to Ford and Lucas and said he hadn't felt that engaged in a picture since he watched The Longest Day.

Even after the success in '77 people were still not accustomed to a space fantasy being so good.

 

[cmiller99]

He made a movie with heroes for kids in an era where all real heroes seemed to disappoint.

Lucas made a genuine feel-good movie during a time when kids went to see "Marathon Man" and "All The Presidents Men" for entertainment. Thing was, it wasn't just for kids....everyone embraced it.

This is absolutely true. This is an era that had Alex DeLarge, Popeye Doyle, Michael Corleone, Jake Gittes, Randle McMurphy, all the people in Deliverance, Harry Callahan, Carrie, Howard Beale from Network, the guys from Dog Day Afternoon, Harry Caul from The Conversation. How many memorable 1970s lead characters were still good people by the end of their movies, or ended up in a better place from where they started? Practically none. Even movies that end well for the characters, like Rocky, Jaws and The Exorcist have bittersweet endings. Before Luke Skywalker, nobody in the 1970s outright won except Charlie Bucket and the guys in The Sting.

 

[Asta]

The Original Trilogy works so well because it's comic book melodrama told well. A simple tale of powerful emotions played out against an engaging and expansive backdrop.

Star Wars began in medias res. The Clone Wars were a thing of mystery left to the imagination of the audience.

The Prequel Trilogy got itself bogged down with the minutiae of the behind the scenes machinations, and the desire to interconnect and explain the origins of everything.

 

[cmiller99]

The Original Trilogy works so well because it's comic book melodrama told well. A simple tale of powerful emotions played out against an engaging and expansive backdrop.

Star Wars began in medias res. The Clone Wars were a thing of mystery left to the imagination of the audience.

The Prequel Trilogy got itself bogged down with the minutiae of the behind the scenes machinations, and the desire to interconnect and explain the origins of everything.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Spielberg liked the first cut (that the original editor cut). I think the others didn't - not because it lacked depth, but rather because they weren't ready for that type of film.

There's a story I read about Harrison Ford watching the first cut for Empire with Lucas & Peter Hyams. When it was over, Hyams turned to Ford and Lucas and said he hadn't felt that engaged in a picture since he watched The Longest Day.

Even after the success in '77 people were still not accustomed to a space fantasy being so good.

You might be right about Spielberg "getting it", but you can't just write off the others by saying they weren't ready for it. These were professionals that would have recognized great writing or deep emotional value if it was there regardless of unfinished special effects.

And being "engaged" in a movie has nothing to do with depth. Look at E.T. Or Titanic. Is there great depth there? No. Very simple visceral storytelling on a very emotional level.


I know we've all said this, but you do seem to be confusing your absolute love for these movies with some kind of intentional depth that really is not there. You're reading into it. And that's not an insult.

 

[cmiller99]

Coppola's the worst one. I've seen him say in various interviews he thought Apocalypse Now wouldn't work and definitely not resonate.

That was probably plain nihilism. Apocalypse Now was a horrible experience for him, of course he thought that it would bomb. That movie is a miracle considering its production.