Black Panther Wakanda Forever - November 11, 2022

[e30ernest]

Sokovia who….

We are in the Multiverse saga those accords are very far in our rear view mirror.

This movie ultimately falls flat at addressing what phase 4 was all about.

Isn't Phase 4 was all about the aftermath of Endgame and laying down the groundwork for the Multiverse Saga? I think this dealt with the aftermath of EG rather well IMO. It also lays the possibility of having

Spoiler:

another T'Challa as a different Black Panther with his son/heir.

 

[Victοr]

I watched a camrip. I'm here to complain about Manletmor. Nothing else grabbed me.

Spoiler:

How close is MCU Namor to the actual Namor, you may ask. Well, apart from sharing the same name and some basic characteristics for branding purposes, they are entirelly different characters on virtually every level.

• Let's start off with the basics such as his name. No, it wasn't a joke. The "Namor" name is literally a shortened version of "el nino sin amor". It's something a dying priest called Kidmor when Manletmor's people were killing some Spanish for being evil to their Indigenous slaves, whom they came across when they went to the surface to bury Manletmor's mother. Why would a dying priest call a random kid that? Well, who knows! First he calls him a demon and then he calls him that. What sense does that make? The demon part I get, weird flying kid flanked by blue guys; sure. But the rest? It's nonsensical. All that matters is that we have a contrived reason to call this guy by the trademarked named. So, to make it clear, we have a grown man going around telling people "my enemies call me Namor" which is a shortened version of a phrase some dying old man called him (before Kidmor caved his skull in), which in turn means "the boy without love". Yes, it's as ridiculous as it sounds. Our big bad's "name" is "loveless". "Aaaaahhhh fear me, I am the Loveless!!!". Jesus... Oh, btw, how the Hell does that work with Namor-a? Also, he even says "Imperius Rex" at some point but in Nahuatl, which makes no sense since Imperius Rex is a Latin phrase, and he reigns over no empire, but they had to get the trademark there! So yeah, here's your totally organic reinvention of Namor bro!
• Since we've discussed the name, let's move onto the backstory. Well, Atlantis is a fictional story passed onto myth, maybe based on some resemblance of historical truth and blablabla. Some theorised that it could've been in the Atlantic Ocean, hence things like the Lost Continent Of Mu and so on. Well, do we get a MesoAmerican/Pre-Mayan styled Atlantis here? Is there a reason for the cultural swap? The answer is... NO! "No Atlantis", you might say, "how does that work?". Well True Believer, sit tight because this one will blow your mind! Get this: Instead of some version of Atlantis, some other myth concerning an underwater lost city at least, we instead get... normal Aztecs. Yeah. Manletmor's people are normal Aztecs from the 1500s who, trying to flee the Conquistadors, went tripping on some flowers based on a Shaman's vision which was sent to him by one of their gods (no, you don't actually see the god ala the Thor movies, just narration). Those flowers turned them blue and "allowed them to draw oxygen from the water" so they went underwater. And that's it. They're not an ancient civilization lost in the annals of time, they're normal humans who went tripping because of invaders and they set up shop under the water. They named the place Talocan after their myths, but it's not some literal sunk city or anything like that. Somehow they managed to whip up advanced tech under the water, because in MCUland as long as you're an isolated society you can bypass the normal pace of progress. Dunno, maybe the Vibranium flower made them smarter than baseline humans. Point is, Namor's entire backstory is gone. No princess who fell in love with a sailor, no hidden ancient mythical civilization, nothing. It's literally an entirely new origin which has 0 to do with Namor's lore. I know someone's gonna bring up the Golden Age panels reposted on Twitter where Namor is "an enemy of men" but then he'd have to talk about Namor the guy who stretched his face and eyes to "fool and infiltrate the Japanese", and nobody wants that. Comic Namor works because he's supposed to be ruling over the majority of sea life since Atlanteans were down there for thousands upon thousands of years. Manletmor's literally been sitting in his underwater city for centuries and seething. It's laughable.
• And then we get to his appearance. He doesn't look like Namor by virtue of not being a tall, muscular and handsome man, but we've known that since forever. But he still has the elfish ears and winged feet. Why? Trademarking of course! Namor has them because of the thematic connection to Hermes/Mercury and the ethereal nature of Elves (and other similar creatures such as Nymphs) as passed down into pop culture through Tolkien. They may look kinda ridiculous at first in the comics too, but at least they work. Here? They're utterly random. Manletmor calls himself a mutant because he has to (get it, the X-Men are coming!!1!!!11). The ankle wings are drawn as a parallel to that "feathered god" Ku'Kul'Kan they call him. But it's a weak analogy; that's a feathered serpent, Manletmor just has some feathers on his ankles. The ears still remain random. Point being, they dumped some "core physical traits" on him to be safe, but they don't mesh with the new origin and are just there to go "gee whiz bloody entitled hateful virgins, MCU Namor literally looks the same, down to the ankle wings". I look at the guy and nothing screams Namor.
• Finally we have the characterization itself which is... eh. He's much more mellow and basically tries to broker a peace between Talocan and Wakanda so that they can go kill evil whiteys together. Why now? Why didn't he think of that before his people were close to being discovered? What the Hell was this 400 YO geezer doing when Thanos was snapping up his people? I guess he needed 400 years to power up his seething over whitey. I liked it better when Killmonger was doing it because MBJ had charisma and looked cool. Either way, Manletmor wasn't even in the wrong on a baseline, really. He wanted to kill some randoms to protect his people but Wakanda was willing to risk a war to protect Ree-Ree. Why? No reason in-universe. So they go to war over some random kid. Great government there! Manletmor tries to convince them until Nakia kills some guards and then he goes full-on war mode. The Talocans body the Wakandans and it all ends as predictably as you'd think. ShuriPanther traps Manletmor in a jet and transports him to a place far from the sea while also frying him a bit. Manletmor impales her after a crappy fight (serious Bollywood effects there, except Bollywood is fun) and while he tries to stumble to the water, she takes out the spear, and instead of offing him, spares him. So Manletmor calls off the attack and they have an uneasy truce. But Manletmor warns them The Eternal Whitey will come again, and then they'll beg him for help. So until the next time, Manletmor's off to the dark waters of the deep. Will he return? I doubt it. This guy isn't allying with anyone like Doom (unless MCU Doom is now an exiled Wakandan creating a safe haven for BIPOCs in Antarctica or something), there's no Invaders history now, and I doubt anyone would be crazy enough to do the FF cuckoldry subplot, so there's nothing that ties him to the surface or any of the upcoming plots. Best case scenario when [World Ending Event #4645] happens, whoever the Panther is will ask him to protect the planet his people live in, and he'll get some CGI battle scenes. But I don't see him getting a suit like comics Namor or any of that sort. For the foreseeable future, this is as much Manletmor as we'll get. Feige said that they might give him a solo if he's a hit though, so who knows.

And that's it. Ridiculous really. I can't help but wonder where all those massive budgets go. The big "war" set-piece was about 30 people atop a ship. The CGI looked rubbery all around. A big part of the Talocan scenes were already shown in the clips, so don't expect a lot of fleshing out. Hell, he keeps narrating about his "people" and "tribe" and all we see are about 4 guys and 2 gals in a forest. Talocans all descent from the same 4 couples? Man, talk about some Biblical incest stuff...

The best thing I can say is that some of the Namor fight scenes looked kinda cool in a videogamey way. I liked how he moved and how ruthless he was in going in for the kill every time. And me clowning on Manletmor aside, in the scene where he tries to talk Shuri into giving him Ree-Ree, with the cape and all, he looked pretty cool. If they gave him that plus the head dress and whatnot, he'd make one nice dolly. But this isn't Namor. This is an OC on every level, wearing the name for PR and trademark reasons. They couldn't do a "white" ethnostate because those are banned (they could've easily done a MENA-based Atlantis but Hollywood doesn't care about MENAs except when they can shoehorn BIPOCs to steal all their roles), so they created an entirely different backstory and character, then slapped the name on top and added some basic cosmetic traits. He's a good enough character with a nice aesthetic and backstory, but he is not Namor in any way, shape, or form. He just isn't.

So, yeah, that's all I have to say. I didn't care for it as a movie. Phase 4 continues being a bomb. I won't even talk about Ree-Ree, who is as stock as it gets. We could've gotten a proper film of T'Challa going against a world-weary, proper Namor played by Keanu in full-on Wick mode, and instead we got this:

Yeah... I can't wait to see how they'll ruin Doom. Namor and Kang have already been ruined for me. Thanos was a let down, and Adam Warlock will be another Gunn caricature. Just bring on the FF and Doom, I want to taste the pain...

As a final recap:

• Namor's name is comic book for "Avenging Son". Manletmor's name isn't his name, but is a shortened version of "the boy without love" so he calls himself the unloved/loveless/virgin.
• Namor is a big, buff, attractive, regal man. Manletmor's about 5'6" with flabs.
• Namor is the prince of a long lost mythical civilization full of weird tech and magic. Manletmor's a long-lived Aztec worshipped as a faux-god.
• Namor goes toe-to-toe with the Hulk. Manletmor went down by T'Challa's nerdy sister who looks as muscled as a twig.
• Namor wages war on the surface because he controls 70% of the planet, is angry at global pollution, is bipolar and an unashamed imperialist. Manletmor's been sitting in his cave and seething about the Spanish/Euros for 400 years.
• Namor has to pacify an entire empire and also struggle with being a child of both land and sea. Manletmor's just an Aztec leading the equivalent of a small nation state whose people don't even seem that peeved anymore.
• Namor is a blunt type who tells it like it is and often is the voice of reason amongst a group of supergeniuses playing god. Manletmor's 400 years old and comes off as wise as a teenager. He commands no authority, he's just trying his best to look like an arrogant prick, which is an aspect of Namor, but without the regallity it falls flat. They replaced that with more compassion in a way, but it doesn't make up for it.

Dunno, maybe there's more. I'm tired though. Aesthetics and actor aside, Manletmor just doesn't have the bite. He doesn't have the regallity. He's another "anti-villain" with none of Namor's power and wonder. When Namor appears you should feel the same as when Thor or Hulk do. This guy feels like a mid-level muscle boss you kill in the first act of a videogame. The whole thing felt like a mediocre videogame, really.

Me, I'm buying a stealth AquaMomoa from Aquaman 2 next year and using him as a stand-in for my Namor. I was debating to wait in case Manletmor appears again with one of the comic costumes, but it's looking unlikely and even then I'd have to try and find an extra HS to fit Namor (so basically Keanu is my only option) then try to swap parts around, so it'd generally be too much of a hassle. Stealth AquaMomoa looks just fine, and I'll put him in the back of my Illuminati display so that his boots and lack of ankle wings won't be visible. Hell, he literally looks more like Namor, albeit an amalgamation of different looks, than Manletmor does. He's got the 90s/modern hair & beard combo on top of a blue/black/silver scale-like outfit, similar to what Namor's been wearing for the last 2 decades or so.

It's good enough for me. Momoa's always had the Namor look, especially due to the eyebrows. If Snyder hadn't grabbed him, he'd have been a sure contender for the role due to Drogo. We'd have gotten a much more warrior-like Namor I imagine. So in a way it works, considering they changed Aquaman into more of a Namor type anyhow. The Stealth look being similar to Namor's usual looks is just a happy cosmic coincidence for me. Maybe I'll add some random vambrances/gauntlets or something, or an armoured piece on the shoulders if I find anything on the aftermarket, to create an amalgamation of all of his looks. We'll see. Aquaman 2's coming out next December, so I'll have to wait a full year before such a figure might go up for PO. And then I'll have to choose between HT and IA, but I'll be sticking with sculpted hair regardless, because a rooted AquaMomoa will look off next to the rest of my Illuminati with their sculpted hair.

 

[e30ernest]

I watched a camrip. I'm here to complain about Manletmor. Nothing else grabbed me.

Spoiler:

How close is MCU Namor to the actual Namor, you may ask. Well, apart from sharing the same name and some basic characteristics for branding purposes, they are entirelly different characters on virtually every level.

• Let's start off with the basics such as his name. No, it wasn't a joke. The "Namor" name is literally a shortened version of "el nino sin amor". It's something a dying priest called Kidmor when Manletmor's people were killing some Spanish for being evil to their Indigenous slaves, whom they came across when they went to the surface to bury Manletmor's mother. Why would a dying priest call a random kid that? Well, who knows! First he calls him a demon and then he calls him that. What sense does that make? The demon part I get, weird flying kid flanked by blue guys; sure. But the rest? It's nonsensical. All that matters is that we have a contrived reason to call this guy by the trademarked named. So, to make it clear, we have a grown man going around telling people "my enemies call me Namor" which is a shortened version of a phrase some dying old man called him (before Kidmor caved his skull in), which in turn means "the boy without love". Yes, it's as ridiculous as it sounds. Our big bad's "name" is "loveless". "Aaaaahhhh fear me, I am the Loveless!!!". Jesus... Oh, btw, how the Hell does that work with Namor-a? Also, he even says "Imperius Rex" at some point but in Nahuatl, which makes no sense since Imperius Rex is a Latin phrase, and he reigns over no empire, but they had to get the trademark there! So yeah, here's your totally organic reinvention of Namor bro!
• Since we've discussed the name, let's move onto the backstory. Well, Atlantis is a fictional story passed onto myth, maybe based on some resemblance of historical truth and blablabla. Some theorised that it could've been in the Atlantic Ocean, hence things like the Lost Continent Of Mu and so on. Well, do we get a MesoAmerican/Pre-Mayan styled Atlantis here? Is there a reason for the cultural swap? The answer is... NO! "No Atlantis", you might say, "how does that work?". Well True Believer, sit tight because this one will blow your mind! Get this: Instead of some version of Atlantis, some other myth concerning an underwater lost city at least, we instead get... normal Aztecs. Yeah. Manletmor's people are normal Aztecs from the 1500s who, trying to flee the Conquistadors, went tripping on some flowers based on a Shaman's vision which was sent to him by one of their gods (no, you don't actually see the god ala the Thor movies, just narration). Those flowers turned them blue and "allowed them to draw oxygen from the water" so they went underwater. And that's it. They're not an ancient civilization lost in the annals of time, they're normal humans who went tripping because of invaders and they set up shop under the water. They named the place Talocan after their myths, but it's not some literal sunk city or anything like that. Somehow they managed to whip up advanced tech under the water, because in MCUland as long as you're an isolated society you can bypass the normal pace of progress. Dunno, maybe the Vibranium flower made them smarter than baseline humans. Point is, Namor's entire backstory is gone. No princess who fell in love with a sailor, no hidden ancient mythical civilization, nothing. It's literally an entirely new origin which has 0 to do with Namor's lore. I know someone's gonna bring up the Golden Age panels reposted on Twitter where Namor is "an enemy of men" but then he'd have to talk about Namor the guy who stretched his face and eyes to "fool and infiltrate the Japanese", and nobody wants that. Comic Namor works because he's supposed to be ruling over the majority of sea life since Atlanteans were down there for thousands upon thousands of years. Manletmor's literally been sitting in his underwater city for centuries and seething. It's laughable.
• And then we get to his appearance. He doesn't look like Namor by virtue of not being a tall, muscular and handsome man, but we've known that since forever. But he still has the elfish ears and winged feet. Why? Trademarking of course! Namor has them because of the thematic connection to Hermes/Mercury and the ethereal nature of Elves (and other similar creatures such as Nymphs) as passed down into pop culture through Tolkien. They may look kinda ridiculous at first in the comics too, but at least they work. Here? They're utterly random. Manletmor calls himself a mutant because he has to (get it, the X-Men are coming!!1!!!11). The ankle wings are drawn as a parallel to that "feathered god" Ku'Kul'Kan they call him. But it's a weak analogy; that's a feathered serpent, Manletmor just has some feathers on his ankles. The ears still remain random. Point being, they dumped some "core physical traits" on him to be safe, but they don't mesh with the new origin and are just there to go "gee whiz bloody entitled hateful virgins, MCU Namor literally looks the same, down to the ankle wings". I look at the guy and nothing screams Namor.
• Finally we have the characterization itself which is... eh. He's much more mellow and basically tries to broker a peace between Talocan and Wakanda so that they can go kill evil whiteys together. Why now? Why didn't he think of that before his people were close to being discovered? What the Hell was this 400 YO geezer doing when Thanos was snapping up his people? I guess he needed 400 years to power up his seething over whitey. I liked it better when Killmonger was doing it because MBJ had charisma and looked cool. Either way, Manletmor wasn't even in the wrong on a baseline, really. He wanted to kill some randoms to protect his people but Wakanda was willing to risk a war to protect Ree-Ree. Why? No reason in-universe. So they go to war over some random kid. Great government there! Manletmor tries to convince them until Nakia kills some guards and then he goes full-on war mode. The Talocans body the Wakandans and it all ends as predictably as you'd think. ShuriPanther traps Manletmor in a jet and transports him to a place far from the sea while also frying him a bit. Manletmor impales her after a crappy fight (serious Bollywood effects there, except Bollywood is fun) and while he tries to stumble to the water, she takes out the spear, and instead of offing him, spares him. So Manletmor calls off the attack and they have an uneasy truce. But Manletmor warns them The Eternal Whitey will come again, and then they'll beg him for help. So until the next time, Manletmor's off to the dark waters of the deep. Will he return? I doubt it. This guy isn't allying with anyone like Doom (unless MCU Doom is now an exiled Wakandan creating a safe haven for BIPOCs in Antarctica or something), there's no Invaders history now, and I doubt anyone would be crazy enough to do the FF cuckoldry subplot, so there's nothing that ties him to the surface or any of the upcoming plots. Best case scenario when [World Ending Event #4645] happens, whoever the Panther is will ask him to protect the planet his people live in, and he'll get some CGI battle scenes. But I don't see him getting a suit like comics Namor or any of that sort. For the foreseeable future, this is as much Manletmor as we'll get. Feige said that they might give him a solo if he's a hit though, so who knows.

And that's it. Ridiculous really. I can't help but wonder where all those massive budgets go. The big "war" set-piece was about 30 people atop a ship. The CGI looked rubbery all around. A big part of the Talocan scenes were already shown in the clips, so don't expect a lot of fleshing out. Hell, he keeps narrating about his "people" and "tribe" and all we see are about 4 guys and 2 gals in a forest. Talocans all descent from the same 4 couples? Man, talk about some Biblical incest stuff...

The best thing I can say is that some of the Namor fight scenes looked kinda cool in a videogamey way. I liked how he moved and how ruthless he was in going in for the kill every time. And me clowning on Manletmor aside, in the scene where he tries to talk Shuri into giving him Ree-Ree, with the cape and all, he looked pretty cool. If they gave him that plus the head dress and whatnot, he'd make one nice dolly. But this isn't Namor. This is an OC on every level, wearing the name for PR and trademark reasons. They couldn't do a "white" ethnostate because those are banned (they could've easily done a MENA-based Atlantis but Hollywood doesn't care about MENAs except when they can shoehorn BIPOCs to steal all their roles), so they created an entirely different backstory and character, then slapped the name on top and added some basic cosmetic traits. He's a good enough character with a nice aesthetic and backstory, but he is not Namor in any way, shape, or form. He just isn't.

So, yeah, that's all I have to say. I didn't care for it as a movie. Phase 4 continues being a bomb. I won't even talk about Ree-Ree, who is as stock as it gets. We could've gotten a proper film of T'Challa going against a world-weary, proper Namor played by Keanu in full-on Wick mode, and instead we got this:

Yeah... I can't wait to see how they'll ruin Doom. Namor and Kang have already been ruined for me. Thanos was a let down, and Adam Warlock will be another Gunn caricature. Just bring on the FF and Doom, I want to taste the pain...

As a final recap:

• Namor's name is comic book for "Avenging Son". Manletmor's name isn't his name, but is a shortened version of "the boy without love" so he calls himself the unloved/loveless/virgin.
• Namor is a big, buff, attractive, regal man. Manletmor's about 5'6" with flabs.
• Namor is the prince of a long lost mythical civilization full of weird tech and magic. Manletmor's a long-lived Aztec worshipped as a faux-god.
• Namor goes toe-to-toe with the Hulk. Manletmor went down by T'Challa's nerdy sister who looks as muscled as a twig.
• Namor wages war on the surface because he controls 70% of the planet, is angry at global pollution, is bipolar and an unashamed imperialist. Manletmor's been sitting in his cave and seething about the Spanish/Euros for 400 years.
• Namor has to pacify an entire empire and also struggle with being a child of both land and sea. Manletmor's just an Aztec leading the equivalent of a small nation state whose people don't even seem that peeved anymore.
• Namor is a blunt type who tells it like it is and often is the voice of reason amongst a group of supergeniuses playing god. Manletmor's 400 years old and comes off as wise as a teenager. He commands no authority, he's just trying his best to look like an arrogant prick, which is an aspect of Namor, but without the regallity it falls flat. They replaced that with more compassion in a way, but it doesn't make up for it.

Dunno, maybe there's more. I'm tired though. Aesthetics and actor aside, Manletmor just doesn't have the bite. He doesn't have the regallity. He's another "anti-villain" with none of Namor's power and wonder. When Namor appears you should feel the same as when Thor or Hulk do. This guy feels like a mid-level muscle boss you kill in the first act of a videogame. The whole thing felt like a mediocre videogame, really.

Me, I'm buying a stealth AquaMomoa from Aquaman 2 next year and using him as a stand-in for my Namor. I was debating to wait in case Manletmor appears again with one of the comic costumes, but it's looking unlikely and even then I'd have to try and find an extra HS to fit Namor (so basically Keanu is my only option) then try to swap parts around, so it'd generally be too much of a hassle. Stealth AquaMomoa looks just fine, and I'll put him in the back of my Illuminati display so that his boots and lack of ankle wings won't be visible. Hell, he literally looks more like Namor, albeit an amalgamation of different looks, than Manletmor does. He's got the 90s/modern hair & beard combo on top of a blue/black/silver scale-like outfit, similar to what Namor's been wearing for the last 2 decades or so.

It's good enough for me. Momoa's always had the Namor look, especially due to the eyebrows. If Snyder hadn't grabbed him, he'd have been a sure contender for the role due to Drogo. We'd have gotten a much more warrior-like Namor I imagine. So in a way it works, considering they changed Aquaman into more of a Namor type anyhow. The Stealth look being similar to Namor's usual looks is just a happy cosmic coincidence for me. Maybe I'll add some random vambrances/gauntlets or something, or an armoured piece on the shoulders if I find anything on the aftermarket, to create an amalgamation of all of his looks. We'll see. Aquaman 2's coming out next December, so I'll have to wait a full year before such a figure might go up for PO. And then I'll have to choose between HT and IA, but I'll be sticking with sculpted hair regardless, because a rooted AquaMomoa will look off next to the rest of my Illuminati with their sculpted hair.

I understand why they deviated from comic Namor though. It's because most of what you said above was done in mainstream via the DCEU Aquaman. When my son first saw Namor, he called him "Dollar Store Aquaman". Because Aquaman was shown first, he thinks Namor was the rip-off. If they followed the story like you said above, then he would have definitely become discount Aquaman for the masses.

The fact you plan on getting an Aquaman figure to stand in for Namor fortifies the discount Aquaman sentiment.

You are right, this Namor was an OC movie character with no relation to the comic Namor. I think that's OK though.

On another note, since Talocan is in the Yucatan (based on the caves they showed), does this mean the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs was a Vibranium meteor?

 

[Victοr]

I understand why they deviated from comic Namor though. It's because most of what you said above was done in mainstream via the DCEU Aquaman. When my son first saw Namor, he called him "Dollar Store Aquaman". Because Aquaman was shown first, he thinks Namor was the rip-off. If they followed the story like you said above, then he would have definitely become discount Aquaman for the masses.

The fact you plan on getting an Aquaman figure to stand in for Namor fortifies the discount Aquaman sentiment.

You are right, this Namor was an OC movie character with no relation to the comic Namor. I think that's OK though.

On another note, since Talocan is in the Yucatan (based on the caves they showed), does this mean the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs was a Vibranium meteor?

Sure, I get why they did it. The DCEU Namor-fied Aquaman so Marvel had to either try very hard and blow DC's Atlantis out of the water, or they could do something else. They chose the latter and it's so different that it's not even the same character. I've said it before, but if they wanted Black Panther: Native American/MesoAmerican Version, they could've easily reworked White Tiger into that. Why ruin Namor in the process? As a detached OC I like Manletmor, if I let go of all my expectations of what Namor should be, and see this guy as a wholly new character. But it grinds my gears, you know? They could've easily done Namor properly and painted him as an unapologetic imperialist, a threat from the deep. No misunderstood hero nonsense, just a millenias old, dormant culture filled with magic and ancient science rising from the depths to take over the world. That Namor would stand out next to Momoa's dudebro Aquaman. I'll be buying an Aquamomoa as a stand-in, sure, but just for the appearance and because it's the best I'll be able to get. The MCU could've done Namor properly and had him stand out next to Aquaman, but they just didn't want to. And as I've said before, they could've gone with a Proto-Egyptian aesthetic ala Nadia, which would've been different and still accurate. But they didn't.

Either way, it is what it is. In a vacuum, it's a nice enough character and new origin. It just irks me as a fan of the original. I'll get my Stealth Aquamomoa AKA 90s x 00s Namor, stick him in the back of my Illuminati, and I'll move on. If anyone's found a new favourite in the MCU Ku'Kul'Kan character, sure, more power to them. But I think as far as aquatic races of 2022 go, Cameron's Alien Blue Cats will blow the Talocanil out of the water, since the movie really didn't spend all that much time with them. Attuma was the highlight I thought. I would actually be pretty tempted by an HT Attuma figure (if HT made him, which is unlikely, and if I had cash to spare and a place to put him...). Maybe they should do a D+ show with Attuma as an underwater Conan exploring the deep. Dunno, I think an MCU Talocan flick could be pretty cool, but I don't see them doing it. It'd be too costly and Avatar 2, regardless of its quality as a film, will be the best aquatic adventure in a long while, whereas the MCU is struggling with basic CGI as is.

 

[e30ernest]

Sure, I get why they did it. The DCEU Namor-fied Aquaman so Marvel had to either try very hard and blow DC's Atlantis out of the water, or they could do something else. They chose the latter and it's so different that it's not even the same character. I've said it before, but if they wanted Black Panther: Native American Version, they could've easily reworked White Tiger into that. Why ruin Namor in the process? As a detached OC I like Manletmor, if I let go of all my expectations of what Namor should be, and see this guy as a wholly new character. But it grinds my gears, you know? They could've easily done Namor properly and painted him as an unapologetic imperialist, a threat from the deep. No misunderstood hero nonsense, just a millenias old, dormant culture filled with magic and ancient science rising from the depths to take over the world. That Namor would stand out next to Momoa's dudebro Aquaman. I'll be buying an Aquamomoa as a stand-in, sure, but just for the appearance and because it's the best I'll be able to get. The MCU could've done Namor properly and had him stand out next to Aquaman, but they just didn't want to. And as I've said before, they could've gone with a Proto-Egyptian aesthetic ala Nadia, which would've been different and still accurate. But they didn't.

Either way, it is what it is. In a vacuum, it's a nice enough character and new origin. It just irks me as a fan of the original. I'll get my Stealth Aquamomoa AKA 90s x 00s Namor, stick him in the back of my Illuminati, and I'll move on. If anyone's found a new favourite in the MCU Ku'Kul'Kan character, sure, more power to them. But I think as far as aquatic races of 2022 go, Cameron's Alien Blue Cats will blow the Talocanil out of the water, since the movie really didn't spend all that much time with them. Attuma was the highlight I thought. I would actually be pretty tempted by an HT Attuma figure (if HT made him, which is unlikely, and if I had cash to spare and a place to put him...). Maybe they should do a D+ show with Attuma as an underwater Conan exploring the deep. Dunno, I think an MCU Talocan flick could be pretty cool, but I don't see them doing it. It'd be too costly and Avatar 2, regardless of its quality as a film, will be the best aquatic adventure in a long while, whereas the MCU is struggling with basic CGI as is.

Yeah I like him as an OC character indeed.

I don't see him as a misunderstood hero though.

Spoiler:

He strikes me as a fascist. He's only a "hero" to his people, but to everyone else, he is definitely a threat.

He only agreed to peace because he was already beaten by Shuri and because having Wakanda as sympathetic to his cause serves his purpose (gives me WW2 vibes there). The moment it becomes advantageous to him and his people, he will turn against Wakanda and the world.

 

[medicomsucks]

There was really no way to handle the death of Chadwick Boseman in a manner that would make all fans happy about it.

If they did as they've done, by effectively writing him out with dialogue, it will upset some fans that the core character was not recasted. ( Though there are practical considerations here, the MCU overall has burned through A LOT of established actors in their universe and there are a lot of DCEU actors who are too known in their roles there to cross over effectively, who is left in terms of young black male actors established enough to take the role? )

If Coogler and Feige wanted to recast T'Challa, then they risked putting a franchise on an unknown or a possibly fringe actor. A few established actors out there who might fit could avoid the role because if the film bombed, they would be blamed for the franchise dying. This happened to Barry Pepper and Battlefield Earth. He took a lot of the blame for the film failing even though clearly it wasn't his fault. It probably hurt his career very badly.

A "girl power" movie fits into current "modern theme" of the MCU. So Feige would have been criticized and called a bigot if he didn't allow a woman to rise up and become a new Black Panther. Also he'd be called a racist. Someone will say, how in the entire world is that racist if you have a black actor/actress replacing a tragically deceased black actor? Which is a good question. But in today's time, when there is controversy, everyone just gets called a racist now in Hollywood. Someone would go down the production crew list and be upset that more minorities weren't working catering or as cameramen, or whatever. Why would Feige want to deal with any of that?

Since Boseman, again very tragically, had some lead time before he passed on ( i.e. this wasn't a sudden death, clearly Boseman and Feige and Coogler knew this was coming ) , he could have filmed some last scenes that would work as an exit. But many would consider that "ghoulish" or criticize that, i.e. exploiting his death to market the film. Then there was the risk of doing that or a total recast, of having his family and estate complaining and making it a huge scandal in the media.

I don't see a good answer here. I don't see a safe answer. I see Feige taking the "safer-ish" answer given the complex situation. In effect, this is how "new Hollywood" works. Productions are basically held hostage. Make a film this way or avoid this ( and yes, that includes not angering the CCP so a filmed is blocked from release in China) or you'll suffer. The end result is a compromised production and end product.

In any of the variations I listed, keeping it as was made, recasting, or Boseman filming exit scenes, any of it could have worked if there's good writing and you focus on telling a good story. But telling a good story is way down the list of requirements now. First is money, always money. Second is not getting "cancelled". Third is bending the knee to "Woke". Good storytelling is just not a priority over other elements and it makes these valuable IPs suffer for it.

I liked your post because it was so long.

 

[Victοr]

Yeah I like him as an OC character indeed.

I don't see him as a misunderstood hero though.

Spoiler:

He strikes me as a fascist. He's only a "hero" to his people, but to everyone else, he is definitely a threat.

He only agreed to peace because he was already beaten by Shuri and because having Wakanda as sympathetic to his cause serves his purpose (gives me WW2 vibes there). The moment it becomes advantageous to him and his people, he will turn against Wakanda and the world.

As an OC he's fine. The guy's not a bad actor or anything. He's just too radical a departure from the Namor I know.

Spoiler:

The thing with the [current day] politics is that such a behaviour is permitted and painted as quasi-noble as long as the character has the "right background", so to speak. Look at Killmonger. His plan was to literally give guns to everyone who looked like him so they could rise up and kill all the whiteys. Because 200 years later some guy living on a broken farm in Slovenia is responsible for some Dutch trader's actions. The point was to see Killmonger as an orphan with issues who created a boogeyman to cope with reality. See the What If episode where Tony thinks of him as a best bud throughout, but then Killmonger still mercilessly offs him and pulls the race/privilege card, while on his way to claim the throne of an entire country. But even though his motives were nonsensical and the product of an unstable mind, people still went "wow, he's got a point". The man was crazy enough to think genocide was a solution, what point? It's the same with Magneto, but in that case his cause is even more ridiculous, though I don't want to get into X-Men territory now. It's just that when your character is played by someone charismatic and cool liking like MBJ (or Fassbender in Magneto's case), you get swept up in it. And it's part of the reason why people like villains; they're pro-active. They take action, they have goals. I like Killmonger, even if in-universe he'd want to gut me. His scene in WF was one of the only exciting ones. I'd like to see him come back. Hell, I'd prefer to see MCU Doom strike up an alliance with him over Ku'Kul'Kan. I still hope they can use the Multiverse excuse to bring MBJ back, because he was enjoyable as both Killmonger, he's a good actor, and I'm a fan of Killmonger in the comics (though there he's vastly different). My point is, you can like a character even though they'd want you dead, look nothing like you, share none of your views, etc, etc, simply by virtue of them being enjoyable to watch/read/play as/etc.

MCU Ku'Kul'Kan has the backstory to make you sympathetic to him, and one could make the argument that he'd technically be taking back what was taken from him if he focused his attack on that specific area. When it comes to Wakanda he's not even that unreasonable, he proposes an alliance and all he wants is the person that could jeopardise both of their peoples. But for plot reasons Wakandans act like morons and we get the flick. But all those things aside, you're definitely supposed to think that he's a "willing to cross the line for his people which makes him an anti-hero" type instead of a villain. Had it been, say, Alexander Skarsgard playing him, I think he'd been pushed in a different way, let's just say...

Comics Namor is hated by a lot of people precisely because he's an unreliable, petty, arrogant **** who causes Tsunamis every other weekend. Eventually Byrne gave him the bipolar disorder as an excuse, because there's no way Namor can ever be a hero or even anti-hero. He just flip-flops between "one of the guys" and a genocidal monster. If I didn't already like the archetype of the rogue prince, and if he didn't have his ties to the FF, Doom and wider MU, I doubt I'd like him. But I like him as a cape villain and a monarch, definitely not as an anti-hero. He's just Cap's buddy so in-universe he gets passes and has periods of "heroism". He's got the usual excuses but as it stands he's an awful monarch considering he can't protect his kingdom, a threat to the rest of the world, and a self-righteous hypocrite. I like him because he's entertaining despite all that and I find him interesting. He irritates me at times, but he's central enough to the mythology of the MU that I consider him a "must-have". But compare him to other Monarchs such as T'Challa, Black Bolt, even outright villains like Doom, and he's definitely on the low end of the scale.

Having been in the Namor fan-sphere for so long, there are die-hards who can pull up scans to show how Namor's actually totes a good guy. I disagree, but that's because I'm not a fan of excusing actions. I love Doom, but he's definitely a villain. It's why I hate stuff like DoomWar and Emperor Doom. My Doom is a maniacal but enjoyable villain with some heroic undertones who thinks he can improve the world, not by helping people but by molding it in his own image. Whenever he's turned into someone who genuinely wants to help over an ambitious conqueror who wants to win, I lose all interest. Doom's not a hero in the modern sense of the word. At best he's a hero in the antiquiated world of the ancients. But a lot of diehard fans of whatever character want their fave to always be in the right, which just doesn't sit right with me. I like villains and I accept them as villains. Namor I like as a troll, a foil, an antagonist, a force of nature that can't be reasoned with. The irony where he's the sound voice in the room when dealing with the Illuminati is the cherry on top, and why I think it's worth keeping him around as is, in all of his jerky glory.

Either way, as time moves on and I'm able to divorce him from the character I know, I may even come to enjoy him. But as it stands I can just muster up a "meh" and be glad there'll be a passable-as-Namor-Aquamomoa dolly in the future. Maybe when I add that doll to my collection and cross the name off the list, and there's another MCU Ku'Kul'Kan project to flesh him out, I might change my tune. Theoretically they can still do the Invaders stuff, just without Cap. You could easily make a "Namor" flick with a portion set in the 40s featuring Ku'Kul'Kan and an incarnation of the Invaders against some Thule Society Nazis headed by a comic accurate Von Strucker (make it the AoU one's grandfather or something) and after the Serpent Crown or some such, then move the action to the present day with a modern incarnation of the Invaders against a HYDRA cell headed by the miraculously still alive Von Strucker. You could add a classic, white Fury in there as SLJ Fury's father from the 40s.

There are ways to make him work. Maybe play up his X-Side more. But I don't see this guy ever having anything to do with the FF or Doom, even the Illuminati. He's too low on the global power scale for Doom to need anything from him, the cucking subplot of FF was always cringy, and there's generally nothing to be gained from such ties. But with the X-Men he could work as another fellow mutant, maybe falling to Magneto's side or some such. We'll see. But considering he's the first guy in the MCU to call himself a "mutant", I think they're cooking something up towards that direction. It'll be funny if I end up with a Manletmor dolly in my X-Display (though I doubt it, I'm trying to keep my X-Wants restrained to very few characters lest I fall off the wagon; I'm not even planning to get a Jackverine) next to Apocalypse and Emma Frost.

 

[jye4ever]

darthkostis is back with a vengeance

Isn’t it cute that little Shuri

Spoiler:

defeated NAAmor

 

[Magic Chaser]

Regarding IronHeart...

Spoiler:

I honestly felt like she was a character that the higher ups forced Ryan Coogler to include. They basically had nothing for her to do besides being a contrived plot device / literal walking MacGuffin for the first act. Everything after that? You could delete her and it would've made no difference. The "heater" trick / finding out Namor's weakness? Shuri was already figuring that out herself in the scene. Riri was just standing there to spew science nonsense and sound "smart". The film's characters talks her up like the second coming of Tony Stark, but she had no character at all and does not do anything that reflects her "genius". I did not believe that she could whip up a mini Arc Reactor or make a suit that is comparable to Tony's early suits.

 

[jye4ever]

Marvel has failed tremendously.

I’m sitting there STILL waiting for characters to discuss the BIG THINGS that have happened.

Celestial sticking out of the ocean you think Namor would have something to say about that?

Moon Night gods fighting over Egypt, anyone from Wakanda curious about that?

Falcon and Winter Soldier, Ms Marvel dimensional shenanigans?

YET Marvel just keeps adding more big events.

NOTHING adds up.

NOTHING makes sense.

NOTHING matters.

There is NO focus.

It’s a MESS!

 

[e30ernest]

Marvel has failed tremendously.

I’m sitting there STILL waiting for characters to discuss the BIG THINGS that have happened.

Celestial sticking out of the ocean you think Namor would have something to say about that?

Wanda’s actions on earth, anyone from the CIA curious about that?

Moon Night gods fighting over Egypt, anyone from Wakanda curious about that?

Falcon and Winter Soldier, Ms Marvel dimensional shenanigans?

YET Marvel just keeps adding more big events.

NOTHING adds up.

NOTHING makes sense.

NOTHING matters.

There is NO focus.

It’s a MESS!

I'm actually starting to think Eternals happened in a different universe.

Was the giant Celestial ever addressed in any of the other films yet? I don't think it was even addressed in any of the other TV shows too?

 

[RavenAsh]

Phase 4 was sold in the same jigsaw box all the other phases were, as a piece of the puzzle but also a puzzle on its own. It’s fair to say that this phase has utterly failed at that. That box we all got, the pieces don’t fit together at all. They so overtly don’t link that they would be better off separated and that’s the biggest issue for me. It’s not even that I only loved two of their projects, because Phase 2 was rough imo aside from the 2014 double header of Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy. But Phase 2 was BUILDING. Even if that jigsaw wasn’t wonderful, there was a bigger picture. Something as simple as the Russos being announced to direct Avengers Infinity War at the time was something that mattered. That was a slam dunk call at the time. They made an incredible movie that is still in my top 2-3 MCU movies, and was pretty unanimously praised. Compare that to Shang-Chi’s director taking over Avengers 5. That movie was okay to me until the third act when it went completely off the rails into a CGI mismash in an awful climax. That’s who I should be excited for to direct the Avengers? Also, consider Michael Waldron who wrote an incredibly divisive script for Multiverse of Madness writing Avengers 6. Even if you loved it, the fact was it was extremely divisive. You couldn’t find someone without that baggage?? No longer are Marvel making slam dunk decisions that get a large majority excited. There are literally almost no projects I’m looking forward to in the future in the MCU.

An entire phase and we got no tease of the future Avengers level villains in the movies.

I haven’t watched this movie, I have absolutely no interest in spending the money and time on it in the cinema, but from everything I’ve read, I think so many of the issues of the phase seem present here. There is no torch-bearer, no Iron Man anymore. Perhaps T’Challa could have been that for the whole MCU, but he certainly needed to be for this franchise. Imagine making The Dark Knight without Batman. Leaving this Black Panther franchise to a bunch of B-list side characters is just disappointing. I think that’s the big thing I’d say. The MCU as we knew it is just about over. Which of their franchises are you into? Any characters you’re a fan of? That’s the only question that matters now imo.

And I think everyone agreed to forget Eternals ever happened. Remember when they were hyping that up for Oscars? Couldn’t even get through 30 minutes of that

 

[guyver1]

Regarding IronHeart...

Spoiler:

I honestly felt like she was a character that the higher ups forced Ryan Coogler to include. They basically had nothing for her to do besides being a contrived plot device / literal walking MacGuffin for the first act. Everything after that? You could delete her and it would've made no difference. The "heater" trick / finding out Namor's weakness? Shuri was already figuring that out herself in the scene. Riri was just standing there to spew science nonsense and sound "smart". The film's characters talks her up like the second coming of Tony Stark, but she had no character at all and does not do anything that reflects her "genius". I did not believe that she could whip up a mini Arc Reactor or make a suit that is comparable to Tony's early suits.

Agree..if she wasn’t in this film..it wouldn’t have mattered..basically Feige said the series of her is coming so let me just introduce her to the audience .

I think if they handled her like Moon Knight , Ms Marvel and She Hulk and just have her appear in the start of her series with no cinema lead in ..it would’ve been better

BTW..If Namor appears in the future which I know he will..say FF…he needs to bulk up

 

[jye4ever]

What’s phase 4 about again?

 

[guyver1]

Basically …let’s face it...no MCU films can capture the strength of the IM, Captain America, Avengers and Spider-man series of films. Even Thor fell on the wayside . I think these set of films worked because these were universally known classic, iconic characters that gave you the real feeling of a comic book superhero plot and flow.

Wakanda is a beautiful film in sending a message but it is what Phase 4 is having a problem with..there is no balance…Phase 4 is either too intense or a comedy or all over the place in structure like DS MoM and Shang Chi ..it is unfortunate that Boseman passed..but this film is not the film you want in a BP film after the first , if there is no male superhero lead in it. I know there is no way Feige and Coogler had seen the flow of this sequel to be originally produced if Boseman was starring in it. It is what it is..and now because there is no way they can recast the role as they chose to, I feel the BP will be forever lost in the MCU.

Perhaps with all due respect to the great Chad Boseman and he can never be replaced..never, for the sake of the MCU moving forward..maybe Feige should tackle the idea of the Multiverse and recast a male BP as part of the Multiverse (meaning a different BP from another dimension ) for future projects . It should be a possibility at least worth considering to at least give purpose to the legendary character again

 

[Sassafras]

Basically …let’s face it...no MCU films can capture the strength of the IM, Captain America, Avengers and Spider-man series of films. Even Thor fell on the wayside . I think these set of films worked because these were universally known classic, iconic characters that gave you the real feeling of a comic book superhero plot and flow.

Wakanda is a beautiful film in sending a message but it is what Phase 4 is having a problem with..there is no balance…Phase 4 is either too intense or a comedy or all over the place in structure like DS MoM and Shang Chi ..it is unfortunate that Boseman passed..but this film is not the film you want in a BP film after the first , if there is no male superhero lead in it. I know there is no way Feige and Coogler had seen the flow of this sequel to be originally produced if Boseman was starring in it. It is what it is..and now because there is no way they can recast the role as they chose to, I feel the BP will be forever lost in the MCU.

Perhaps with all due respect to the great Chad Boseman and he can never be replaced..never, for the sake of the MCU moving forward..maybe Feige should tackle the idea of the Multiverse and recast a male BP as part of the Multiverse (meaning a different BP from another dimension ) for future projects . It should be a possibility at least worth considering to at least give purpose to the legendary character again

Well tho someone was paying attention to what was going on, most of the time. There were some foul-ups there IMO like BP never mentions the world-destroying Ultron and why Wakanda didn't show up....but, in Ultron and IM, there are tidbits about Wakanda.
Falcon briefly mentions "the missing person case" in Ultron....e.g. interconnectivity. Even in IW where Tony accuses Cap of not being there, nodding back to an Ultron interchange.

To me what you describe it just the MCU, starting with Captain Marvel - and much like the later SW series - all goes back to hiring people not invested in the lore, not being experienced writers, and Disney trying too hard to capture the untapped gold mine of diversity/foreign dollars. Teams of younger, cheaper writers with their social messages and bein' clever *wink, wink* and often what shows up is uninspired dribble, sometimes saved by the actors trying really hard. Look at the leaden misstep of Mulan.

It doesn't help when whatever they come up with undermines how we already view characters (Falcon and Winter Soldier, Hulk) or the "new" characters are really just borrowed rehashes of original characters like Ironheart (even if comic accurate, am no fan of what I think of a "piggybacking" since to me it just feels like you couldn't think of something truly original). Then you have writers who forget to tighten it up like Gunn (bathroom humor) and Waititi (excessive). As well as, some of the things that may amuse one audience are insulting to another part of the audience, so now if you are in the audience you more or less, at times, get to sit and be insulted by the director or writer's voice. Just how are Caucasians supposed to feel being called "colonizers" or men being depicted as THE PROBLEM? You sure don't end up with an audience clapping and cheering like at the end of IM1.

IMO Disney was just trying for the potential gold mine of female viewers, and now Latin and Asian markets. Story always suffers if you don't pay attention to that first. As for BP, IMO they should have just recast; or come up with a cousin or something to take over. Chadwick Boseman was a working actor; I doubt he would have wanted to be permanently typecast as T'challa anyway. Chris Evans, Hemsworth all began to chafe under the weight and wanted to do other projects.

 

[Wor-Gar]

It's pronounced... NOMOR.


No one here is liking El Namor? Winged ankles always looked cool.

 

[choombaz]

Enjoyed it, didn’t love it. It was unbalanced and too long but there was a lot to like in it. The performances were all great, some really beautiful moments, some really epic visuals but yeah with Avatar almost out, just that trailer was more beautiful than most in this film. But …

Bringing in a son just seemed wrong to me and cheapened the film a bit. I thought they handled most of T’Challa’s death sensitively but to have it completely offscreen and not go into any specifics bugged me a bit as well.

A few really outliers for me: really loved Letitia Wright in this, she brought it. Tenoch as well, really awesome and felt like the Namor I grew up with. The CG was fantastic and never had the fake rhino moment for me. Despite all of the Avatar vibes, all of the action was terrific. Loved everything with Ross and Val, the first time I got good vibes with her character. I know nothing about the Riri character and I loved her. But yeah didn’t like the suit.

 

[loki2371]

So, what happened to some people thinking that other actress they all of a sudden started promoting was gonna actually be BP? I guess that turned out to be completely wrong. Shuri the only BP in the film?

 

[jye4ever]

So, what happened to some people thinking that other actress they all of a sudden started promoting was gonna actually be BP? I guess that turned out to be completely wrong. Shuri the only BP in the film?

Spoiler:

YUP