InArt Phoenix Joker 1/6

[TheBatman]

Letoker has no place

 

[Wor-Gar]

Letoker was a fumble in every possible way.

I could not in good conscious place him anywhere near those Fab Four Jokers.

Hopefully The Batman II will give us our 'Fab Five' 5th Joker.

 

[ironwez20]

Letoker was a fumble in every possible way.

I could not in good conscious place him anywhere near those Fab Four Jokers.

Hopefully The Batman II will give us our 'Fab Five' 5th Joker.

If anything The Batman needs to stay away from the joker for a bit. What that movie needs is either Clayface or Freeze.
I actually found Leto interesting at first but his performance was trash and soon the look became terrible to me.

 

[BrooklynWolf X]

i feel in a sense, there would not be any or as much weight at all if we didn't take the moment to spend it with arthur and to see his shift into his joker persona. while reveling in the chaos with him was thrilling, there was always a part of me that wished he got the proper help but we know in movies, complications always arise and seemingly bad things happen the characters.

i was originally thought like this when i first went into the movie, hoping to see as much joker and chaos as possible but after subsequent viewings, I've grown to really empathize and like arthur as a character but that's the fun and joy of manipulative filmmaking can be for audience to side with the outcast. one reason why i appreciate loner cinema so much but maybe im a weirdo for that. in some parts, its almost reliability to see the isolation he has to deal with but front and center, to me the movie while delves heavily into the lack of a healthcare service being provided, but the lack of compassion people offer to others, especially when they are different and should be friendlier to others

i could probably go through the movie without the waynes, they felt shoe horned in at the end to be an essential batman character. the less waynes its involved the better, but i guess we wont have to worry about that anymore. the wayne deaths just felt so last minute to me, they could've easily removed it and it wouldn't matter or effect the plot since after he gets his nose caved in by thomas wayne, he settles that returning to his second father isn't an option unless they bring up the murders in the sequel but we'll see.

it does suck for DC though, they seemingly royally ****** up their main universe by having such a divided fan base and a convoluted storyline where almost a 3rd of the base is snyder nuts and the rest just seemingly don't care. more people put way more attention attention to DC's elseworld projects. its both a good and bad thing

I wanted to touch on the empathy i had for Arthur with @batfan08 but was worried we were ‘derailing’ the topic…about JP Joker…

But screw it.

I mentioned how the movie made us feel conflicted. Both my wife and I found Arthur to be sympathetic. And we even saw some form of ‘vindication’ with him killing those men on the train. But then you realize…whoa, he just killed 3 men. Granted he was getting beat up…but does that justify his actions? He had a gun and all he had to do was fire off a warning shot and that should’ve been it. But he chased them down.

The movie up to that point had Arthur being dragged across the floor and mud…so when that scene happened, I thought “yeah those guys had it coming”…only to snap back to reality and realize…yo, there’s no turning back now.

And I think that’s kind of the depressing brilliance of the movie. I knew it was only gonna get worse from that point forward, but my wife told me she expected him to “find the light and turn good”…I’m like “oh honey…it’s the Joker…”

It’s a pretty powerful film IMO. Sure it’s not ‘THE JOKER’. But as an elseworlds story, a WHAT-IF…it was great. TDK Joker, backed with an amazing performance by ledger was “a force of Nature”. We don’t know his history, his own internal conflict or character agency. He literally appeared out of nowhere and was just a wicked wicked man and made your skin crawl.

JP joker…well, it was a character study, watching a man descend into chaos. I usually don’t like films like that…especially when the main character WILLINGLY makes all the wrong choices. In Joker’s case, he was dealt a really bad hand since birth and society failed him every step of the way.

 

[lordnastrond]

I would love to see that too... despite the fact that HT's Nicolson Joker (Parade) is still one of HT's top 3 figures ever made.

Absolute truth - that figure is still probably the best figure Hot Toys has ever made.
The likeness is 100% spot on and never been matched even after all these years - it was my first HT purchase ever, is probably my favourite piece that I own, but also represented the absolute peak of this hobby for many, many years.
But I would LOVE to see Inart take a crack at it, I would never sell my DX08, but considering I also have the HT Mime version [also absolutely incredible and every bit as good as the DX08], the mob version on pre-order and plans to use the Gallery sculpt/hat from that figure to make his "Partyman" look....
Well, suffice to say I am very happy to give my DX08 more company if Inart wish to try!

 

[lordnastrond]

I wanted to touch on the empathy i had for Arthur with @batfan08 but was worried we were ‘derailing’ the topic…about JP Joker…

But screw it.

I mentioned how the movie made us feel conflicted. Both my wife and I found Arthur to be sympathetic. And we even saw some form of ‘vindication’ with him killing those men on the train. But then you realize…whoa, he just killed 3 men. Granted he was getting beat up…but does that justify his actions? He had a gun and all he had to do was fire off a warning shot and that should’ve been it. But he chased them down.

The movie up to that point had Arthur being dragged across the floor and mud…so when that scene happened, I thought “yeah those guys had it coming”…only to snap back to reality and realize…yo, there’s no turning back now.

And I think that’s kind of the depressing brilliance of the movie. I knew it was only gonna get worse from that point forward, but my wife told me she expected him to “find the light and turn good”…I’m like “oh honey…it’s the Joker…”

It’s a pretty powerful film IMO. Sure it’s not ‘THE JOKER’. But as an elseworlds story, a WHAT-IF…it was great. TDK Joker, backed with an amazing performance by ledger was “a force of Nature”. We don’t know his history, his own internal conflict or character agency. He literally appeared out of nowhere and was just a wicked wicked man and made your skin crawl.

JP joker…well, it was a character study, watching a man descend into chaos. I usually don’t like films like that…especially when the main character WILLINGLY makes all the wrong choices. In Joker’s case, he was dealt a really bad hand since birth and society failed him every step of the way.

Completely agree, the movie really made me feel for Arthur - but also made for a convincing potential "origin story" vis The Killing Joke, which hints at a potential tragedy shaping him into what he is.
You can even see why this Arthur WOULD be the centre of such a large following in Gotham afterwards, why this "Joker" would have such an impacting legacy on the city and how he could embrace this new powerful, dangerous, confident "seen" persona of "Joker" to the point he loses everything that makes him Arthur.... if he ever was... funny sometimes I remember it one way... sometimes another... If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!
And in the final "you wouldn't get it" scene with the therapist, I get chills - his nihilism, his sadism, his monstrosity, but still hints at that hidden pain and vulnerability.... and then he gleefully murders his councilor and dances a merry jig in her blood...
I can't wait to see more of this character, and to me he is an absolutely fantastic take on the Joker.

 

[ironwez20]

I wanted to touch on the empathy i had for Arthur with @batfan08 but was worried we were ‘derailing’ the topic…about JP Joker…

But screw it.

I mentioned how the movie made us feel conflicted. Both my wife and I found Arthur to be sympathetic. And we even saw some form of ‘vindication’ with him killing those men on the train. But then you realize…whoa, he just killed 3 men. Granted he was getting beat up…but does that justify his actions? He had a gun and all he had to do was fire off a warning shot and that should’ve been it. But he chased them down.

The movie up to that point had Arthur being dragged across the floor and mud…so when that scene happened, I thought “yeah those guys had it coming”…only to snap back to reality and realize…yo, there’s no turning back now.

And I think that’s kind of the depressing brilliance of the movie. I knew it was only gonna get worse from that point forward, but my wife told me she expected him to “find the light and turn good”…I’m like “oh honey…it’s the Joker…”

It’s a pretty powerful film IMO. Sure it’s not ‘THE JOKER’. But as an elseworlds story, a WHAT-IF…it was great. TDK Joker, backed with an amazing performance by ledger was “a force of Nature”. We don’t know his history, his own internal conflict or character agency. He literally appeared out of nowhere and was just a wicked wicked man and made your skin crawl.

JP joker…well, it was a character study, watching a man descend into chaos. I usually don’t like films like that…especially when the main character WILLINGLY makes all the wrong choices. In Joker’s case, he was dealt a really bad hand since birth and society failed him every step of the way.

Yup I don't mind that it's not The Joker. Heath wasn't a traditional joker either niether was Jack. Still great and again love the movies somber tone and direction also I can't stress enough how brilliant this scene is

0:55 is such a good scene. The laughing in the background and Bruce standing over his dead parents. Thats so Batman right there and its done so masterfully.
The music in this is a work of art. Glad she is back for the second film.

 

[BrooklynWolf X]

Completely agree, the movie really made me feel for Arthur - but also made for a convincing potential "origin story" vis The Killing Joke, which hints at a potential tragedy shaping him into what he is.
You can even see why this Arthur WOULD be the centre of such a large following in Gotham afterwards, why this "Joker" would have such an impacting legacy on the city and how he could embrace this new powerful, dangerous, confident "seen" persona of "Joker" to the point he loses everything that makes him Arthur.... if he ever was... funny sometimes I remember it one way... sometimes another... If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!
And in the final "you wouldn't get it" scene with the therapist, I get chills - his nihilism, his sadism, his monstrosity, but still hints at that hidden pain and vulnerability.... and then he gleefully murders his councilor and dances a merry jig in her blood...
I can't wait to see more of this character, and to me he is an absolutely fantastic take on the Joker.

PRECISELY. I don’t think I can add anything else after your reply…but I do want to address the one thing that was bone chilling to me:

The movie clearly took place in the late 70’s early 80’s…the **** that happened in the movie can also serve as a warning sign for todays social media-clout-dependent generation.

roughly 2 months ago a stupid riot orchestrated by a d-bag of a twitch streamer happened in NYC.

All he had to do was amass a decent sized following of brainless clout chasing idiots on his channel, say a few words, then viola, a riot.

The lawlessness that happened was a chilling reminder of the power of influence. (I’m not gonna talk ANYTHING politics related. Strictly about Joker and chaos.)

Going back to what @batfan08 said about the ”zeitgeist” and todays incels, Andrew Tate etc etc…

“Joker” just touched on MANY current, relevant things, despite it being a ‘period’ piece.

 

[TheBatman]

PRECISELY. I don’t think I can add anything else after your reply…but I do want to address the one thing that was bone chilling to me:

The movie clearly took place in the late 70’s early 80’s…the **** that happened in the movie can also serve as a warning sign for todays social media-clout-dependent generation.

roughly 2 months ago a stupid riot orchestrated by a d-bag of a twitch streamer happened in NYC.

All he had to do was amass a decent sized following of brainless clout chasing idiots on his channel, say a few words, then viola, a riot.

The lawlessness that happened was a chilling reminder of the power of influence. (I’m not gonna talk ANYTHING politics related. Strictly about Joker and chaos.)

Going back to what @batfan08 said about the ”zeitgeist” and todays incels, Andrew Tate etc etc…

“Joker” just touched on MANY current, relevant things, despite it being a ‘period’ piece.

They already did that social media trope on The Batman....

 

[BrooklynWolf X]

They already did that social media trope on The Batman....

Oh yeah for sure. But to me that was more of a…”Dark Web” angle to it. There wasn’t a ‘Riot’ per say…but there was definitely chaos. Which is ALSO bone chilling.

It’s just the NY riot was recent and had similarities with Joker due to the power of influence.

 

[jye4ever]

Great discussion by everyone.

 

[ironwez20]

there was the 2016 clown sightings that played a big part in people being scared of the movie. But yea I remember people being terrified it would awaken so many violent occurrences when everyone loved it. I was especially happy it shut up the tumblr community.

I honestly think the film is proof dc can do actual art and make things differently from mcu stuff. They aren’t restricted to kid friendly material and can do what they want with their characters. They had no idea this would be a hit that’s why they were so hands off with it and let the director just do what he does. So what we got was a dirty gritty disturbing take on the superhero genre which hasn’t been done since the 00s
Hate it or love it the movie just brought everyone in and I’d argue it was more talked about and more praised than endgame that year. Endgame came and went but joker was such a surprise that people just gushed about it. No doubt the new movie will gain hype.
Also lady Gaga as Harley Quinn? Yea I can’t wait to see the reactions to the first trailer.

 

[TheBatman]

there was the 2016 clown sightings that played a big part in people being scared of the movie. But yea I remember people being terrified it would awaken so many violent occurrences when everyone loved it. I was especially happy it shut up the tumblr community.

I honestly think the film is proof dc can do actual art and make things differently from mcu stuff. They aren’t restricted to kid friendly material and can do what they want with their characters. They had no idea this would be a hit that’s why they were so hands off with it and let the director just do what he does. So what we got was a dirty gritty disturbing take on the superhero genre which hasn’t been done since the 00s
Hate it or love it the movie just brought everyone in and I’d argue it was more talked about and more praised than endgame that year. Endgame came and went but joker was such a surprise that people just gushed about it. No doubt the new movie will gain hype.
Also lady Gaga as Harley Quinn? Yea I can’t wait to see the reactions to the first trailer.

There was Brightburn..

 

[ironwez20]

Oh yeah for sure. But to me that was more of a…”Dark Web” angle to it. There wasn’t a ‘Riot’ per say…but there was definitely chaos. Which is ALSO bone chilling.

It’s just the NY riot was recent and had similarities with Joker due to the power of influence.

Yea riddler I’d say was more of a guy on a small forum of people who gather a small group together and do a terrorist attack. Joker did a “influencer” type role. Which is what kai kenet did. These kids today are influenced by people online and they go crazy for influencers and some of them are weird and creepy like that one bald dude. Joker influenced a mass amount of people to riot cause he clicked with them.

 

[ironwez20]

There was Brightburn..

Eh let’s be honest the Superman bad thing is old and it was fun in injustice and homelander and invincible but that movie was honestly just weird child with Superman powers. Imo it was no different from the other weird child with evil abilities trope

 

[Wor-Gar]

Great discussion by everyone.

So that means it will likely be moved somewhere else, right?

 

[xXJ0kerXx1]

Yea riddler I’d say was more of a guy on a small forum of people who gather a small group together and do a terrorist attack. Joker did a “influencer” type role. Which is what kai kenet did. These kids today are influenced by people online and they go crazy for influencers and some of them are weird and creepy like that one bald dude. Joker influenced a mass amount of people to riot cause he clicked with them.

also something to take in account how he did not deliberately start the "kill the rich" movement, but it came off as a mere coincidence and the news spinning him as the people's hero for killing the rich. some people praise joker while others dislike him like thomas wayne. he was just a guy protecting himself from who happens to be rich guys that were pricks. arthur is a heavy narcissist who thrives off of the attention and feeling heard from others when he was someone who had to keep quiet. he even made it clear on the talk show, it wasn't to start a movement against the rich, but that people were awful which i guess people resonated with or felt heard as well, same as him

 

[batfan08]

I wanted to touch on the empathy i had for Arthur with @batfan08 but was worried we were ‘derailing’ the topic…about JP Joker…

But screw it.

I mentioned how the movie made us feel conflicted. Both my wife and I found Arthur to be sympathetic. And we even saw some form of ‘vindication’ with him killing those men on the train. But then you realize…whoa, he just killed 3 men. Granted he was getting beat up…but does that justify his actions? He had a gun and all he had to do was fire off a warning shot and that should’ve been it. But he chased them down.

The movie up to that point had Arthur being dragged across the floor and mud…so when that scene happened, I thought “yeah those guys had it coming”…only to snap back to reality and realize…yo, there’s no turning back now.

And I think that’s kind of the depressing brilliance of the movie. I knew it was only gonna get worse from that point forward, but my wife told me she expected him to “find the light and turn good”…I’m like “oh honey…it’s the Joker…”

It’s a pretty powerful film IMO. Sure it’s not ‘THE JOKER’. But as an elseworlds story, a WHAT-IF…it was great. TDK Joker, backed with an amazing performance by ledger was “a force of Nature”. We don’t know his history, his own internal conflict or character agency. He literally appeared out of nowhere and was just a wicked wicked man and made your skin crawl.

JP joker…well, it was a character study, watching a man descend into chaos. I usually don’t like films like that…especially when the main character WILLINGLY makes all the wrong choices. In Joker’s case, he was dealt a really bad hand since birth and society failed him every step of the way.

This was honestly my problem with the film and what I tried to touch on when I said “upon repeated viewings.” The first time I watched it, I was super hyped as a Scorsese loving film geek…aaaaand I was disappointed. I thought it was an overly sympathetic portrayal of an edgelord to the point where it felt like porn for guys who reek of patchouli oil and have Joker and Venom sleeves running down their arms. I actually kind of saw why the media and everybody was like “this is dangerous,” but then I watched it some more and the more I watched it, the more surprised I was by the nuance.

The whole conceit of the movie is that Arthur’s tired of being kicked around and yet, he’s surrounded by kindness. This strange dude shows up in her apartment one night and Sophie’s first instinct is to ask if he’s okay, Gary was so nice to him he spared his life, and even Murray, confronted with a literal murderer on his show, attempts to get through to him. There are fine fellows throughout the movie and Arthur absolutely gets kicked around, but he’s also an unreliable narrator and it shows.

It shows in how he wants the entire world to coddle him for his inability to fit in and his mental illness, all the while finding the same traits in his mother worthy of punishment by death. It shows in the fact that he fantasizes about Murray Franklin as a surrogate father figure, yet, when faced with an interaction where Murray attempted to get through to him in a paternalistic manner, Arthur split on him and murdered him in cold blood.

It’s kind of a terrifying movie because you almost forget to be critical of the title character, but the more you watch it, the more the cracks start to show. It’s kind of interesting that the movie ends the way it does; with Arthur recounting his tale of woe to a shrink at Arkham, because it makes you wonder “is all of this a crock?”

Completely agree, the movie really made me feel for Arthur - but also made for a convincing potential "origin story" vis The Killing Joke, which hints at a potential tragedy shaping him into what he is.
You can even see why this Arthur WOULD be the centre of such a large following in Gotham afterwards, why this "Joker" would have such an impacting legacy on the city and how he could embrace this new powerful, dangerous, confident "seen" persona of "Joker" to the point he loses everything that makes him Arthur.... if he ever was... funny sometimes I remember it one way... sometimes another... If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!
And in the final "you wouldn't get it" scene with the therapist, I get chills - his nihilism, his sadism, his monstrosity, but still hints at that hidden pain and vulnerability.... and then he gleefully murders his councilor and dances a merry jig in her blood...
I can't wait to see more of this character, and to me he is an absolutely fantastic take on the Joker.

I found it interesting the way Phillips played with canon and, despite it being such a detached, Oscar baity movie, you can see little elements from the books that found their way into the film. Thematically, the whole Murray Franklin show bit kind of brought me back to the Dave Endochrine (Letterman) appearance in The Dark Knight Returns and the way Joker sort of turns their desire to sensationalize him against them (by murdering them all). You’ve got the sad sack, struggling Stand-Up Comic angle from The Killing Joke, and, with the whole “unreliable narrator” angle, it does actually make me curious to see what they do with Harley in the sequel because, if she was sitting where the audience was sitting, while dissecting Arthur’s story, it’s not hard to see how she would sympathize with him and even fall for him.

I will say, off-topic, but it really pissed me off how Joker and The Batman sort of passed each other like two ships in the night. Because their visions of Gotham are so thematically alike and, even the tones are eerily similar. Phillips going for a very gritty, grimey vision of the Bernie Gaetz-era New York of the ‘70s and ‘80s through the lens of Scorsese, and Reeves diving headlong into the grunge of the ‘90s in a Fincher-esque manner (complete with a Nirvana-fueled soundtrack).

It actually actively pisses me off because everything fits except the cell phones and modern tech. Timeline? Pattinson fits little Bruce’s age range in Joker to a T. The atmosphere and the city? They feel the same. Thomas Wayne being a *********? With a little reworking and some reshoots, they could’ve easily tied that whole Falcone/murderer angle from The Batman in with Joker’s Trumpian mogul depiction of Thomas Wayne and I’d have bought that guy having a reporter murdered 100%. Not to mention the fact that incel Joker and 4chan Riddler just feel like they should be in the same universe. Normally, I’m all for detached continuity and letting filmmakers do their own thing, but that’s one that still puzzles me.

 

[batfan08]

So that means it will likely be moved somewhere else, right?

If anybody asks, we’re talking about the stop-motion, shot-for-shot recreation of the movie somebody posted on Dailymotion in two years using this InArt figure. It’s amazing how well they nailed the plot.

 

[ironwez20]

also something to take in account how he did not deliberately start the "kill the rich" movement, but it came off as a mere coincidence and the news spinning him as the people's hero for killing the rich. some people praise joker while others dislike him like thomas wayne. he was just a guy protecting himself from who happens to be rich guys that were pricks. arthur is a heavy narcissist who thrives off of the attention and feeling heard from others when he was someone who had to keep quiet. he even made it clear on the talk show, it wasn't to start a movement against the rich, but that people were awful which i guess people resonated with or felt heard as well, same as him

I loved the scene where it shows the girl on the train have a clown mask later in the movie