What's Happening in the UK?

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Just burn me like Darth Vader when I go. :lol

It's in my will that my wife is not allowed to replace me in all the family photos with this guy:

Hayden_christensen.jpg
 
Which doesn't change the way they behave on the level at which we perceive.

No, but our perception is limited. It's like asking an earthworm to comment on the colour spectrum or some such. At some point, mathematics is the only way to describe or explain some states and events. The concept of infinity is a central plank of calculus... some concepts aren't intuitive, but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm not that bad, but I'm not much better. Math makes sense to me, and a lot of times I can pull answers out of my backside that I shouldn't be able to on account of how clear my foundations are. That said, I sure as hell can't do quantum mechanics.

But, you don't need to be able to do higher math to understand that anyone claiming probability is the best you can ever expect to attain is either not being completely honest, or does not understand what he's actually talking about. I blame philosophy for this. (I blame philosophy for pretty much everything.)

The little I understand of quantum mechanics is that it is about how matter behaves at the very, very small level. Things existing in two places at once... or the fact that the observation of an event changes the outcome of an event. Einstein did the math on it and rejected it not because he got the math wrong, but that he couldn't accept the reality of uncertainty in states of matter. Sounds to me like he's the one who got all philosophical about it, and prioritised intuition over the numbers.

Thats what I come back to every time I'm even tempted to think there could be a God on account of how incomprehensibly old and huge and amazing the universe is.

...then again, as amazing as everything is, it is at exactly the same time not at all amazing. It may as well be the way it is as not at all, or something entirely different. We assume that it is amazing because we can't understand the nature of it all, but it could be that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for life, death and everything if only we weren't so limited and constrained by our senses and intellect.

Just burn me like Darth Vader when I go. :lol

It's in my will that my wife is not allowed to replace me in all the family photos with this guy:

Hayden_christensen.jpg

Your ashes urn will read: Nooooooooo!
 
...then again, as amazing as everything is, it is at exactly the same time not at all amazing. It may as well be the way it is as not at all, or something entirely different. We assume that it is amazing because we can't understand the nature of it all, but it could be that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for life, death and everything if only we weren't so limited and constrained by our senses and intellect.

That...is an amazing thought.
 
It just blows my mind that there are hyper giant stars that are the equivalent of a basketball next to a BB pellet and that pellet represents our sun. :horror

Actually, even bigger than that.

:thud:

We are nothing more than a grain of sand.

What's amazing is that the same scale differences also occur at the sub atomic level, wut.

:panic:

tumblr_lauqvjsfDU1qzvby8
 
Last edited:
Thats what I come back to every time I'm even tempted to think there could be a God on account of how incomprehensibly old and huge and amazing the universe is.

And a theist would tell you that God is even more amazing and old and huge, but there's not one of them that can give you a shred of evidence, other than pointing at the supposed being's supposed creation.

No, but our perception is limited. It's like asking an earthworm to comment on the colour spectrum or some such. At some point, mathematics is the only way to describe or explain some states and events. The concept of infinity is a central plank of calculus... some concepts aren't intuitive, but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

The concept of infinity exists, and it's a useful tool. It doesn't mean that the concept has a metaphysical referent.

I can talk about unicorns all day, but yer never gonna see no unicarns. :dunno

And our senses are limited, but the moment you detach higher abstraction from the point you started, you can make **** up all day. You might not even be aware that you're doing it, but once you've abandoned your only genuine connection to reality, it doesn't matter how convincing your math is when taken on its own terms. If it doesn't square with the foundation, it's not going to stand.

The little I understand of quantum mechanics is that it is about how matter behaves at the very, very small level. Things existing in two places at once... or the fact that the observation of an event changes the outcome of an event. Einstein did the math on it and rejected it not because he got the math wrong, but that he couldn't accept the reality of uncertainty in states of matter. Sounds to me like he's the one who got all philosophical about it, and prioritised intuition over the numbers.

I didn't mean to imply that philosophy had no place in science. I meant that bad philosophy ruins whatever it touches, and physics at the turn of the century was...well, where were all those guys from? Schrodinger? Bohrs? Heisenberg? For that matter, Einstein?

In the early 20th century, Germany was the heir to the most utterly corrupt philosophic tradition in the discipline's entire history. Starting with Kant and moving down through Hegel, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche and Marx, the most ****ed up ideas concerning ultimate reality, human consciousness and morality ever conceived were absorbed by the culture of the nation and far beyond. Kant in particular claimed that reality as we perceive it is a construct of our own minds and that it is impossible for our senses to have any connection with true reality.

To hear a German physicist in the 1920's assert that the condition of a cat in a box is indeterminate until we open the box isn't much of a surprise considering how insane the rest of the country was. And it wasn't just the volk. The bull**** ruled in the universities long before it poisoned the minds and souls of the common people.

It's pretty clear that quantum physicists don't understand what they're observing when they can't decide if light is a wave or a particle, but when they conclude that it is and isn't a wave, while simultaneously being and not being a particle, what you're hearing isn't scientific revelation. You're hearing a philosophical error being enshrined as gospel truth because someone took the time to embellish it with math.

Einstein was incapable of explaining why they were wrong. He knew enough to see that they were.

...then again, as amazing as everything is, it is at exactly the same time not at all amazing. It may as well be the way it is as not at all, or something entirely different.

But it is the way it is. It's not something different, and it does exist.

We assume that it is amazing because we can't understand the nature of it all, but it could be that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for life, death and everything if only we weren't so limited and constrained by our senses and intellect.

The more I learn, the more amazed I am by existence. My senses and intellect only increase my amazement with it. On the other hand, were my conscious so limited as to not exist at all, I imagine I'd have no opinion on the matter whatsoever.
 
And a theist would tell you that God is even more amazing and old and huge, but there's not one of them that can give you a shred of evidence, other than pointing at the supposed being's supposed creation.

Faith means never having to give up the evidence :)

The concept of infinity exists, and it's a useful tool. It doesn't mean that the concept has a metaphysical referent.

I can talk about unicorns all day, but yer never gonna see no unicarns. :dunno

Can you claim with certainty that unicorns don't exist anywhere or anytime in the universe?

And our senses are limited, but the moment you detach higher abstraction from the point you started, you can make **** up all day. You might not even be aware that you're doing it, but once you've abandoned your only genuine connection to reality, it doesn't matter how convincing your math is when taken on its own terms. If it doesn't square with the foundation, it's not going to stand.

This might be applicable to an individual, but we're talking loads of very smart people all agreeing on a set of concepts. The concepts become formalised as theories via mathematical or other intellectual deduction, waiting for someone to come along and disprove it in the face of the existing evidence.

It's pretty clear that quantum physicists don't understand what they're observing when they can't decide if light is a wave or a particle, but when they conclude that it is and isn't a wave, while simultaneously being and not being a particle, what you're hearing isn't scientific revelation. You're hearing a philosophical error being enshrined as gospel truth because someone took the time to embellish it with math.

From what I read, it's not so much gospel truth embellished with math as real-world experiments conducted thus far in the area of wave-particle duality not yielding a definitive answer. Consider a Moebius strip made by twisting a length of paper and joining the two ends. You can trace your finger along the width of it without ever reaching its end, while at the same time you are simultaneously on both sides, yet neither side.

Einstein was incapable of explaining why they were wrong. He knew enough to see that they were.

In other words he had faith?

But it is the way it is. It's not something different, and it does exist. The more I learn, the more amazed I am by existence. My senses and intellect only increase my amazement with it. On the other hand, were my conscious so limited as to not exist at all, I imagine I'd have no opinion on the matter whatsoever.

We're amazed because we don't understand it is what I'm suggesting. And we can likely never understand it because we're not equipped - our intellect, ultimately, is inadequate. Which is cool, because a life without amazement would be no fun at all :)
 
It just blows my mind that there are hyper giant stars that are the equivalent of a basketball next to a BB pellet and that pellet represents our sun. :horror

Actually, even bigger than that.

:thud:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q[/ame]
 
And I thought hitchhiking across Texas was a long trip.

Faith means never having to give up the evidence :)

I believe in Harvey Dent.

Can you claim with certainty that unicorns don't exist anywhere or anytime in the universe?

Someone might engineer one once we get designer pets. And maybe they existed on Mars before the migration to Earth, but didn't get on the Ark, and the persistence of the legend is a holdover from the earliest Terran settlers.

But that wasn't my point. My point is that you can imagine something that doesn't exist, such as infinity. For something (the universe) to exist, it has to be something. Identity implies limits. A thing that is not something specific is not anything, i.e. it is no thing.

No one is ever going to genetically engineer infinity. Infinity wasn't around before Mars got too dry to support life.

This might be applicable to an individual, but we're talking loads of very smart people all agreeing on a set of concepts. The concepts become formalised as theories via mathematical or other intellectual deduction, waiting for someone to come along and disprove it in the face of the existing evidence.

Assuming that their abstractions are logically derived from experiments, and there are no flaws in the process, what happens if they are beginning from a blanket assumption that identity or causality are irrational biases? In their final analysis, are they going to interpret their findings in a manner that is consonant with a universe in which identity and causality are immutable absolutes?

What if they conclude that based on their experiments, identity and causality are an illusion, or that reason is incapable of understanding what they just discovered. How is reason capable of discovering that reason is useless?

From what I read, it's not so much gospel truth embellished with math as real-world experiments conducted thus far in the area of wave-particle duality not yielding a definitive answer. Consider a Moebius strip made by twisting a length of paper and joining the two ends. You can trace your finger along the width of it without ever reaching its end, while at the same time you are simultaneously on both sides, yet neither side.

So long as they understand that the problem is with their understanding and not with the realities that they are observing, I see no issue. Where I take issue is when they claim that these findings are evidence that the universe is inherently contradictory, such that a thing may be what it is and not what it is, at the same time, and in the same respect. Contradiction is an error in conceptualization. A thing is what it is, and will never be not what it is. You can call it whatever you like, but things aren't what they are because we gave them names.

In other words he had faith?

In other words, he understood that contradictions don't exist.

That's not an article of faith. That's sanity.

We're amazed because we don't understand it is what I'm suggesting. And we can likely never understand it because we're not equipped - our intellect, ultimately, is inadequate. Which is cool, because a life without amazement would be no fun at all :)

Our state of knowledge may be inadequate, but there is nothing about our minds that makes them incapable of understanding anything. Our senses are limited. We cannot see all things at once. Our minds are designed to get past that. You can conceptualize the entire universe (I just did). Knowledge is a process, and the fact that we don't know how something works in the present is no indication that we cannot know it in the future.

Something as basic as electromagnetic theory would be inconceivable to **** sapiens 30,000 years ago. Today, you flip a lightswitch without thinking twice. However, if you stop and think about everything involved with that simple instance of cause and effect, how can you not be amazed?
 
Last edited:
You know that you have achieved true intelligence when you can get square with the idea that at some point..."nothing" exists.


Just the same...I can't let it go...I want to know what "nothing" looks like.
 
But that wasn't my point. My point is that you can imagine something that doesn't exist, such as infinity. For something (the universe) to exist, it has to be something. Identity implies limits. A thing that is not something specific is not anything, i.e. it is no thing.

No one is ever going to genetically engineer infinity. Infinity wasn't around before Mars got too dry to support life.

OK, I'm with you. I don't see how anyone can imagine infinity in anything but the most abstract of terms to be honest :dunno It is so abstract that when it is said that a singularity is 'infinitely dense', this is quite obviously an attempt to define a reality that is inexplicable to us given the current body of knowledge of singularities. The idea that packing a finite body of matter into a point in an infinite fashion is absurd, and yet because we cannot observe or replicate it, we rely on inconclusive theories to describe it.

Assuming that their abstractions are logically derived from experiments, and there are no flaws in the process, what happens if they are beginning from a blanket assumption that identity or causality are irrational biases? In their final analysis, are they going to interpret their findings in a manner that is consonant with a universe in which identity and causality are immutable absolutes?

What if they conclude that based on their experiments, identity and causality are an illusion, or that reason is incapable of understanding what they just discovered. How is reason capable of discovering that reason is useless?

They don't begin with blanket assumptions though... they begin with theories, and they test them in controlled conditions. When the natural, physical world results of these experiments don't support the theories, they are deemed to be wrong. Thus far, particle-wave duality is a theory that has not be proved or disproved, but remains a theoretical phenomenon whose purpose is to speculate on why apparently inexplicable events occur at the sub-atomic level - which they undoubtedly do.

So long as they understand that the problem is with their understanding and not with the realities that they are observing, I see no issue. Where I take issue is when they claim that these findings are evidence that the universe is inherently contradictory, such that a thing may be what it is and not what it is, at the same time, and in the same respect. Contradiction is an error in conceptualization. A thing is what it is, and will never be not what it is. You can call it whatever you like, but things aren't what they are because we gave them names.

It's the contradiction which is driving their enquiry - the theory points to apparent contradictions, and the line of enquiry is to determine the parameters. I have yet to read that physicists happily accept this contradiction, only that probabilities, rather than intensities, currently provide the most adequate framework towards understanding the observable outcomes of light behaviour at the sub-atomic level. It is the same spirit of enquiry that led to the 'discovery' of the Higgs boson particle, which existed only in theoretical terms until very recently.

In other words, he understood that contradictions don't exist.

That's not an article of faith. That's sanity.

Until it can be proven one way or another under controlled conditions, it's an article of faith. He may well turn out to be right, but without being able to properly articulate it, it can hardly be deemed prescient.

Our state of knowledge may be inadequate, but there is nothing about our minds that makes them incapable of understanding anything. Our senses are limited. We cannot see all things at once. Our minds are designed to get past that. You can conceptualize the entire universe (I just did). Knowledge is a process, and the fact that we don't know how something works in the present is no indication that we cannot know it in the future.

Our minds are bound to the sensory inputs with which we negotiate our reality. We are spatial beings constrained in linear time and space as 3 dimensional organisms. Our intellect may be able to imagine and simulate various other realities, but bereft of an alternative experiential framework, we are incapable of imagining realities that are incompatible with our physical environment in all but the most abstract of terms. The example of the earthworm might be extended to one who is completely blind since birth. That person might be able to imagine the colour spectrum in abstract terms, but will never be able to properly articulate the concept of colour as it is exists in the world.

Something as basic as electromagnetic theory would be inconceivable to h0m0sapiens 30,000 years ago. Today, you flip a lightswitch without thinking twice. However, if you stop and think about everything involved with that simple instance of cause and effect, how can you not be amazed?

But the theory is easily demonstrated in terms of cause and effect. It's not that the theory itself is mind-blowing so much that the technology required to actualise it is a relatively recent human achievement. Personally speaking, once I overcome the amazement of being here to perceive anything at all, everything else, no matter how extraordinary, is ordinary.

I want to know what love is.

Love is never having to say you're sorry.
 
Lejuan, when you wake up in the morning, do you actively say to yourself, the world is here, it is what it is, and I am conscious of it? No?

But you are making those assumptions every moment of every day. When I say physicists are making blanket assumptions, I'm not talking about their educated guesses. I'm talking about their belief that because we don't perceive the world in terms of sub-atomic particles, our perception is somehow not seeing things correctly. Then from there, deducing that because our senses do not see things this way, that it is possible that things which we heretofor concluded were true and rational, are now somehow ignorant prejudices (finite being, matter, causal law, etc.).

Newtonian mechanics are as true today as they were 300 years ago. You can make predictions regarding the behavior of macroscopic bodies and be certain of them. No, they don't work if you apply the same laws to particles. That's because they do not concern particles. And no, Newton's concepts of absolute time and space are not valid. But he didn't deduce his laws from those assumptions. He used induction from observation, which is the only way that scientists (or anyone) can acquire new knowledge.

Modern scientists can cling to their fear of doubt and test guesses until the cows come home, and then when they get lucky and find something, they can cling to their fear of someone proving them wrong because they really have no clue if they're right or not.

But, they don't have to do that. The senses are valid. Reality is material on the level of the senses. Matter behaves according to laws which can be understood. Why they're so sure (even though they don't believe in certainty) that the constituent parts of law abiding objects do not follow laws as well is because they are making deeper assumptions that are not true.
 
But why does reality follow these natural laws at all?

Why do certain things like the febunacci sequence or the divine ratio appear endlessly in nature?
 
Back
Top