The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

[JAWS]

Probably an unpopular opinion but T1>TSCC>T2.

Those 3 are my canon and the other sequels do not exist.

I could not finish the Sarah Connor Chronicles. I didn't hate it but got board with it after a while.

I actually find some enjoyment out of 3. Some of the action in it is the best in the series. I also like the Lady Terminator. I might hate John Conner more in this one then Edward's version

I find Terminator Salvation to be pretty great entertainment until the final act. I wish they went on with those films instead of the abominations that came after it.

 

[Jay Virtual]

I could not finish the Sarah Connor Chronicles. I didn't hate it but got board with it after a while.

I actually find some enjoyment out of 3. Some of the action in it is the best in the series. I also like the Lady Terminator. I might hate John Conner more in this one then Edward's version

I find Terminator Salvation to be pretty great entertainment until the final act. I wish they went on with those films instead of the abominations that came after it.

It's a very slow show with little action and that's what primarily got it cancelled, but I think it's more cerebral than T2 by exploring the lore deeper than the films (such as what a Terminator does when it completes a mission?) and feels like the natural evolution of the themes of existentialism hinted in the first two films. It's definitely not for everyone and I can completely see how someone would loose interest after awhile but I'd still recommend Terminator fans to give the show a watch if they can.

 

[JAWS]

It's a very slow show with little action and that's what primarily got it cancelled, but I think it's more cerebral than T2 by exploring the lore deeper than the films (such as what a Terminator does when it completes a mission?) and feels like the natural evolution of the themes of existentialism hinted in the first two films. It's definitely not for everyone and I can completely see how someone would loose interest after awhile but I'd still recommend Terminator fans to give the show a watch if they can.

I remember that I liked it at first.. It was near the end of the first season or beginning of the 2nd that I lost interest.. I have no idea why.

 

[a-dev]

*reads onslaught of anti-T2 posts*

I....I'm so glad I bumped the thread.

 

[karamazov80]

LOL I honestly do enjoy T2. Probably should rewatch it again soon. But the tone and intent is so different from the first film that it feels like an apples and oranges comparison. T1 was a gritty, dark sci fi horror movie. T2 is a fun, action-packed ride of a movie. You easily understand how they turned it into a Universal Studios ride. Evil Dead has been on my mind with the Asmus figure, and I think there is a parallel in comparing Evil Dead to Army of Darkness.

The first Terminator better speaks to my own tastes, but if you want a very well made action movie, you aren't going to do much better than Terminator 2. . .well, the Mad Max movies and Die Hard, and Predator, and Aliens. . .and Indiana Jones and Star Wars. . .what was I saying again?

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

*reads onslaught of anti-T2 posts*

I....I'm so glad I bumped the thread.

Don't worry, a-dev!! I'll say something positive about T2. I've got this!

The scene where the T-800 jumps off the truck and turns into a little ball like Sonic the hedgehog was awesome!

 

[ajp4mgs]

*reads onslaught of anti-T2 posts*

I....I'm so glad I bumped the thread.

Well, you know what they say about what opinions are like, right?

Even though I prefer the first film, I respect the crap out of T2. That movie was all kinds of ambitious, and ended up heavily influencing action flicks that followed. It's to Cameron's credit that he can totally change tone, and even genre, from one film to the next and have both be as iconic as they have ended up being.

The complaints about corniness and whatnot were inevitable, but they ignore the fact that one of themes involved Sarah recognizing that young John had finally found a father figure who wouldn't let him down. That element makes it necessary to take the edge off of the Arnie terminator, IMO. Young John needed relatable and friendly moments with the machine in order to make that father figure theme have credibility and emotional impact.

Aside from that, the action set pieces and iconic imagery of Arnold riding the Fat Boy, or one-handed pumping/reloading weapons, are indelibly imprinted in movie history. Freeway chases, hospital escape, Cyberdyne building, T-1000 morphing scenes . . . all done in innovative and/or elevated ways. Too much great stuff from beginning to end, at least in terms of the action genre.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

T2 >>>> T1

It's a fact. That's right, I have the data to prove it.

 

[abake]

Well, you know what they say about what opinions are like, right?

Even though I prefer the first film, I respect the crap out of T2. That movie was all kinds of ambitious, and ended up heavily influencing action flicks that followed. It's to Cameron's credit that he can totally change tone, and even genre, from one film to the next and have both be as iconic as they have ended up being.

The complaints about corniness and whatnot were inevitable, but they ignore the fact that one of themes involved Sarah recognizing that young John had finally found a father figure who wouldn't let him down. That element makes it necessary to take the edge off of the Arnie terminator, IMO. Young John needed relatable and friendly moments with the machine in order to make that father figure theme have credibility and emotional impact.

Aside from that, the action set pieces and iconic imagery of Arnold riding the Fat Boy, or one-handed pumping/reloading weapons, are indelibly imprinted in movie history. Freeway chases, hospital escape, Cyberdyne building, T-1000 morphing scenes . . . all done in innovative and/or elevated ways. Too much great stuff from beginning to end, at least in terms of the action genre.

Oh, I agree with most of what you are saying, the action set pieces and iconic moments/looks are undeniable. It's the overall writing and acting that get worse with every viewing for me. I understand the father figure idea, but as far as I'm concerned, it still doesn't work, because it's so (true to form for Cameron) heavy handed. I actually like the idea of Arnold's Terminator being the good guy in this one (learn how to subvert expectations RJ!), but did he really have to be good to be the good guy? And we circle back to the father figure idea... IMHO, John could've latched on to the Terminator without it having to become a "nice" Terminator. Actually, it would've made more sense for his character's development into the guy who sends his father back in time to die if his role model had been this cold machine...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Oh, I agree with most of what you are saying, the action set pieces and iconic moments/looks are undeniable. It's the overall writing and acting that get worse with every viewing for me. I understand the father figure idea, but as far as I'm concerned, it still doesn't work, because it's so (true to form for Cameron) heavy handed. I actually like the idea of Arnold's Terminator being the good guy in this one (learn how to subvert expectations RJ!), but did he really have to be good to be the good guy? And we circle back to the father figure idea... IMHO, John could've latched on to the Terminator without it having to become a "nice" Terminator. Actually, it would've made more sense for his character's development into the guy who sends his father back in time to die if his role model had been this cold machine...

Heavy-handedness tends to go hand-in-glove with the action genre. Perhaps Cameron was wise enough to know that if you spend too much time laying foundations for subtlety and nuance, you're going to miss the point of escapist action-oriented entertainment.

I'm not saying that I'm in any way a fan of on-the-nose storytelling. Quite the opposite. But when it works, it works. In T2, I think it was appropriate considering the larger goal of the movie, and it worked. T2 was a great ride. I don't see it as bad writing any more than I see bad writing in plenty of other action and adventure films. It's more an example of "targeted" writing. I feel comfortable asserting that Cameron is smart enough to delve deeper, but if his story needs don't require it, he presents his themes in a more blunt fashion and proceeds to blow **** up in awesome ways.

If your objection to the Uncle Bob dynamic with young John leads you to believe that the movie would've been better off keeping the Arnold terminator cold and pragmatic, I can't say that you're wrong. I just don't get bothered enough by anything like that when watching T2, and just enjoy the ride too much.

 

[jye4ever]

T2 is a freaking masterpiece

 

[karamazov80]

Heavy-handedness tends to go hand-in-glove with the action genre. Perhaps Cameron was wise enough to know that if you spend too much time laying foundations for subtlety and nuance, you're going to miss the point of escapist action-oriented entertainment.

I'm not saying that I'm in any way a fan of on-the-nose storytelling. Quite the opposite. But when it works, it works. In T2, I think it was appropriate considering the larger goal of the movie, and it worked. T2 was a great ride. I don't see it as bad writing any more than I see bad writing in plenty of other action and adventure films. It's more an example of "targeted" writing. I feel comfortable asserting that Cameron is smart enough to delve deeper, but if his story needs don't require it, he presents his themes in a more blunt fashion and proceeds to blow **** up in awesome ways.

If your objection to the Uncle Bob dynamic with young John leads you to believe that the movie would've been better off keeping the Arnold terminator cold and pragmatic, I can't say that you're wrong. I just don't get bothered enough by anything like that when watching T2, and just enjoy the ride too much.

I'm sure there are many reasons for why Cameron made T2 the way he did. Part of it was, I'm sure, where he was in his life and his own filmmaking interests (he made a series of good to really good action movies in the mid-80s through the mid-90s). Part of it may have been his sense of what would be commercially most appealing. But another part of it had to be wanting to change things up and do something different from the original. Had he essentially just remade the first film, it would have been lame and tarnished the original in the process. The wacky robot relationships and interactions were distinctive, and I agree that they did work in that movie. He was kind of channeling Shane Black.

 

[jye4ever]

Oh, I agree with most of what you are saying, the action set pieces and iconic moments/looks are undeniable. It's the overall writing and acting that get worse with every viewing for me. I understand the father figure idea, but as far as I'm concerned, it still doesn't work, because it's so (true to form for Cameron) heavy handed. I actually like the idea of Arnold's Terminator being the good guy in this one (learn how to subvert expectations RJ!), but did he really have to be good to be the good guy? And we circle back to the father figure idea... IMHO, John could've latched on to the Terminator without it having to become a "nice" Terminator. Actually, it would've made more sense for his character's development into the guy who sends his father back in time to die if his role model had been this cold machine...

Well the cold machine in the movie was the T1000 for obvious reasons but Sarah was also the cold machine playing against Uncle Bob.

The roles flipped from T1 because they needed Sarah to be what you are describing.

Remember that when the movie was written they knew UB was going to die therefore Sarah and UB needed to be exactly as they were for the emotions to work and holy crap did it pack a punch!

Having all 3 be cold machines would not have worked you needed the human UB moments to be squeezed between the other 2 for all of their arcs to arrive at their proper conclusions.

 

[JAWS]

T2 is a freaking masterpiece

A master piece of crap

 

[a-dev]

I feel like so much of some people's negative takeaway on the cheese factor of T2 derives from a somewhat literal interpretation of the line - ''I know now why you cry. But it's something I can never do'' - I've said this before but I've never taken that line to mean that the T-800 is saying ''I'd totally be crying right now if my tear ducts functioned that way''. I've only ever interpreted it as him saying ''I understand more now the circumstances in which humans feel sadness. However I remain incapable of sharing your feelings. Tell you what though, here's a hug and a thumbs up because I know those are meaningful gestures to you''

Bottom line I think he's humouring John there.

However, my interpretation might have trouble being reconciled with the T-800's seeming earnestness that Skynet ''must be destroyed''. Although initially expressing reluctance due to the risk of encountering the T-1000 (as he did on the matter of rescuing Sarah from Pescadero) he does seem to embrace the new objective of taking pre-emptive action against Skynet. Does he see it merely as an extension of his mission to protect John or is there something more going on there?

One way or another though, you must admit T2 generates more questions and scope for discussion than T1 does.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Walks in, sees people slamming T2, walks out

 

[TaliBane]

A new sequel set 5 years after T2 with Mickey Rourke as Sarah and Eliot Page as John would rock.

 

[punisher1974]

I feel like so much of some people's negative takeaway on the cheese factor of T2 derives from a somewhat literal interpretation of the line - ''I know now why you cry. But it's something I can never do'' - I've said this before but I've never taken that line to mean that the T-800 is saying ''I'd totally be crying right now if my tear ducts functioned that way''. I've only ever interpreted it as him saying ''I understand more now the circumstances in which humans feel sadness. However I remain incapable of sharing your feelings. Tell you what though, here's a hug and a thumbs up because I know those are meaningful gestures to you''

Bottom line I think he's humouring John there.

However, my interpretation might have trouble being reconciled with the T-800's seeming earnestness that Skynet ''must be destroyed''. Although initially expressing reluctance due to the risk of encountering the T-1000 (as he did on the matter of rescuing Sarah from Pescadero) he does seem to embrace the new objective of taking pre-emptive action against Skynet. Does he see it merely as an extension of his mission to protect John or is there something more going on there?

One way or another though, you must admit T2 generates more questions and scope for discussion than T1 does.

I still enjoy T2. There always questions as you say that always bring to mind of a future war movie setting like the opening to T2. I agree with your assessment of Uncle Bob. I think he was humoring John but also trying to show Sarah there is still good in the world. His mission was over so he was obsolete so he didn't matter anymore as he said earlier in the film. The original is still my favorite of the bunch but T2 is still an awesome movie. I just prefer the horror elements of the original better.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'm sure there are many reasons for why Cameron made T2 the way he did. Part of it was, I'm sure, where he was in his life and his own filmmaking interests (he made a series of good to really good action movies in the mid-80s through the mid-90s). Part of it may have been his sense of what would be commercially most appealing. But another part of it had to be wanting to change things up and do something different from the original. Had he essentially just remade the first film, it would have been lame and tarnished the original in the process. The wacky robot relationships and interactions were distinctive, and I agree that they did work in that movie. He was kind of channeling Shane Black.

I think you probably hit the nail on the head about how trying to emulate the first one would almost certainly lead Cameron to recognizing that he'd end up being forced into nothing more than an inferior version as the end result.

Making a sequel with the same tone, mood, and structure of the first would produce something obviously derivative by nature, so then could only differentiate itself in small ways. Using the relationship between Uncle Bob and John the way he did in T2 was one part of the larger shift in genre. More generally, going to action-oriented thrill ride, it allowed expansion of the intimate man-versus-beast horror aspect from T1 into a bigger and more elaborate storytelling landscape with a very different visceral experience.

He already had the template and proof of concept from having done the same thing with his sequel to Alien. A successful genre shift where he took Ridley Scott's grittier and more focused horror-driven story and shifted some of its structural features into an expanded action-driven premise with more character interactions, emotion-driven themes, and spectacle. Bigger, louder, more fast-paced, and more "heart."

When Aliens entertained the way it did without being held down by restrictions of fidelity to tone and genre, Cameron probably felt confident that he could do the same with T2. He not only carried over the same general approach, but also specific beats like using a kid to provide a different emotional dynamic. Both sequels allowed for an entertaining follow-up without the trappings of too much derivative fidelity to the original premise.

 

[jye4ever]

A master piece of crap

Crazy talk