Hot Toys Justice League Batman

[dario2739]

'Last chance to show they can do decent movies', you didn't see Wonder Woman then?

...or Man of Steel, or the ultimate edition of Batman v Superman either!

 

[Hoody999]

...or Man of Steel, or the ultimate edition of Batman v Superman either!

Hang on guys. I personally liked the movies until now. Just I know there was generally a lot of backlash to the films. So meant that the Justice League movie will need to "please the masses" so to say.

My bad for the bad phrasing in my post.

 

[Jaymas]

I don't either. He just looks so imposing, like he stepped right out of a comic. I enjoyed Keaton and Bale in the cowl but always feel they look a little too sleek. From a visual standpoint Batfleck is much more how I imagine Batman.

Visually I agree, I like the look of 'Batlfek' and thought he looked most like the comics than any other version. What I didn't like was the characterization so crazy intent on killing Superman, and then only to somehow comes to his senses after learning Sup's mother has the same name (it tried so hard to be "deep" but was so ridiculously contrived). I also thought Batman was completely out of character about taking life in general. The movies nailed Batman visually, I just don't think they did story wise. We got great fight scenes and the rescue of Martha had great visual elements, but all that stuff is only the surface stuff.

Personally I really enjoy the UE of BvS but even if you think it was garbage

I'm glad you like what you like; the movie made money so plenty of people liked it. But I think its one of the biggest disappointments for a superhero film ever, even more so than low budget bombs. The great visuals makes it even more disappointing because I appreciate the resources they put into it and it just stinks that after all that they couldn't have had a good story which understood the characters. I've shared my disappointment with Batman, but Superman is the same. I love the look and casting of the character but between MoS and BvS they kept telling us that Superman stood for 'good' and 'hope' but never showed us goodness or hope in his character. Just because there is dialogue which says he is "good" doesn't mean anything unless you can show us how he is in the story. I felt like these movies got all the "looking cool" fan boy moments but completely misunderstood the historic essence of the characters. It was really disappointing.

I don't understand the long term pessimism. The two movies you dislike and JL are all Snyder directed, he's done after this movie.

It's not pessimism, it's 'show me'. I'll be happy to believe it and embrace it when I see it. Wonder Woman proves that.

We already have a second WW movie on the way, a solo Aquaman, The Batman, Green Lantern, Batgirl and I'm sure much more. I'd have thought that's a lot to be excited about even if JL doesn't do great.

One reason I can love Wonder Woman so much is because it can stand alone. Being a period piece helped with that, but that's not going to sustainable going forward. The DCEU is supposed to be a connected universe and how we feel about the universe as a franchise will impact the movies. Marvel is showing how this can work and doing a great job, DC is really struggling. I'm hoping they can turn things around, but I need it to get better and not be just more of the same. They need show me Wonder Woman was not just a fluke. But besides that the reason I am not as excited about what is coming up I also lack excitement because I am a Superman and Batman fan most when it comes to DC, if they don't get those guys right I have trouble caring about the rest. The Batman movie rumors aren't sounding good, the studio sounds nervous and in disarray over it, I'm hoping they don't fire Aflek, despite my disappointment with the portrayal of the character in BvS I don't think it was his fault, but rather a poor script. Id love to keep him for the continuity. But the question is who is ultimately in charge? Just changing directors doesn't necessarily help if the studio is handling things poorly. In that environment its hard to get something consistently good if the ones at the top don't understand what makes something good or not. I'm not sure the studio itself gets it; they need to show us that they do.

Agree on Wonder Woman, it's my favorite super hero in the last 10 years.

Yes absolutely!! And that is saying a lot considering how many good superhero movies there have been. It has made a mark on superhero movies today as high as the Christopher Reeves Superman movie did in its day; but doing it with competition of other really good superhero movies the old Superman movie never had.

 

[dario2739]

One reason I can love Wonder Woman so much is because it can stand alone. Being a period piece helped with that, but that's not going to sustainable going forward. The DCEU is supposed to be a connected universe and how we feel about the universe as a franchise will impact the movies. Marvel is showing how this can work and doing a great job, DC is really struggling.

It's all about personal preference –*you say MCU are doing a great job – I disagree... problem with Marvel movies is that they are changing the characters to suit their movies, and the worst thing about that is fans seemingly not caring! Take the latest Ragnarok trailer, Thor's diaglogue is terrible... Drax too in the last Guardians movie was terribly treated... it seems to me that the fans of the MCU movies are not in fact comic book fans. The DCEU however is pretty faithful to it's subject matter... and after all, why bother adapting source material... whether it be a comic book or Shakespeare, if you don't intend to be faithful to the original.
Yes, the Marvel model seems to have been a hit with the movie going masses – but popularity is no reflection of quality, after all One Direction and Justin Beiber are very popular! Also worth noting how the BO figures for the first DCEU offerings are better than the MCU... and BO numbers for recent MCU movies I bet have been disappointing for the studio... Spiderman especially.

 

[NoHeadStark]

It's all about personal preference –*you say MCU are doing a great job – I disagree... problem with Marvel movies is that they are changing the characters to suit their movies, and the worst thing about that is fans seemingly not caring! Take the latest Ragnarok trailer, Thor's diaglogue is terrible... Drax too in the last Guardians movie was terribly treated... it seems to me that the fans of the MCU movies are not in fact comic book fans. The DCEU however is pretty faithful to it's subject matter... and after all, why bother adapting source material... whether it be a comic book or Shakespeare, if you don't intend to be faithful to the original.
Yes, the Marvel model seems to have been a hit with the movie going masses – but popularity is no reflection of quality, after all One Direction and Justin Beiber are very popular! Also worth noting how the BO figures for the first DCEU offerings are better than the MCU... and BO numbers for recent MCU movies I bet have been disappointing for the studio... Spiderman especially.

Marvel movies are just way more fun dude. I like the DC movies and heroes, always have, but they are just physically draining with all their mopiness compared to Marvel. It's a movie about a guy in a cape kicking ass, or an unbeatable alien, he doesn't have to be sad all day thinking about what to do with his life.

You just seem to be a purist who doesn't like adaptations but that's ok. I can relate to that coming from a place where I think the Game of Thrones tv show completely butchered major aspects of the books. But that's for another forum.

 

[GaryPool]

Marvel movies are just way more fun dude. I like the DC movies and heroes, always have, but they are just physically draining with all their mopiness compared to Marvel. It's a movie about a guy in a cape kicking ass, or an unbeatable alien, he doesn't have to be sad all day thinking about what to do with his life.

You just seem to be a purist who doesn't like adaptations but that's ok. I can relate to that coming from a place where I think the Game of Thrones tv show completely butchered major aspects of the books. But that's for another forum.

Then it's not so much how well it does, you, and many people, just don't like that atmosphere the DCEU has. I personally think it fits with what they're doing, and the stories and characters all work extremely well within it, and more than that the characters where they are, specifically Batman, is a fresh take that I welcome. Personally I feel Marvel is too happy-go-lucky, and when they try to be serious it falls on its head - I agree with Dario, they change their characters so much just to capitalise on what fans are liking. If you take Thor from the first Thor and do a direct comparison to him from the trailers of Ragnarok, he's completely changed and doesn't seem like the Thor they went all in with from the first two films. They've heavily made it like Guardians also. For me, MCU do what they do well, rewatching them a second time however there's little substance still to them. With DC's films, I can rewatch them many times over because in the end they don't do something for a cheap laugh or to be popular, they do something because they want to take their characters and story somewhere, and they hit the right beats, the right tones and more importantly they don't try to undermine their drama to get a quick one liner in there. Whether they succeed is up to everyone personally, but for me, hands down I think DC are making better films that Marvel, the only thing Marvel are doing better is having everything connected.

I'm quite the opposite to you in the sense that I find Marvel too "fun", it doesn't reflect the world, it doesn't encourage believability, it makes their stakes extremely low, and ultimately, the characters I just can't care for a lot of them.

 

[dario2739]

Marvel movies are just way more fun dude. I like the DC movies and heroes, always have, but they are just physically draining with all their mopiness compared to Marvel. It's a movie about a guy in a cape kicking ass, or an unbeatable alien, he doesn't have to be sad all day thinking about what to do with his life.

You just seem to be a purist who doesn't like adaptations but that's ok. I can relate to that coming from a place where I think the Game of Thrones tv show completely butchered major aspects of the books. But that's for another forum.

"Way more fun" ...seriously???

Do yourself a favour –*go pick up a Thor comic, a Guardians of the Galaxy comic, Doctor Strange etc. etc. –*I guarantee you they do not have the "fun" and "humour" in them that the MCU does... so why is acceptable to change the characters?

Stories may be about a guy in a cape, but I thought the "funny book" stigma was banished years ago! Look up a list of the top comic/graphic novel stories – Marvel and DC, there's not one "fun" story among them... so again, why is it ok to change them?

To me the MCU and Marvel movies (with the exception of about four) *– are to the actual comics they reference as Schumacher's Batman & Robin was to Batman comics.

It's nothing to do with "adapting", it's about "respecting" the source material – Turning Thor into little more than a wise-cracking valley-boy isn't "adapting" it's taking a huge dump on decades of creative work – Jack Kirby must be spinning in his grave!

 

[dario2739]

Then it's not so much how well it does, you, and many people, just don't like that atmosphere the DCEU has. I personally think it fits with what they're doing, and the stories and characters all work extremely well within it, and more than that the characters where they are, specifically Batman, is a fresh take that I welcome. Personally I feel Marvel is too happy-go-lucky, and when they try to be serious it falls on its head - I agree with Dario, they change their characters so much just to capitalise on what fans are liking. If you take Thor from the first Thor and do a direct comparison to him from the trailers of Ragnarok, he's completely changed and doesn't seem like the Thor they went all in with from the first two films. They've heavily made it like Guardians also. For me, MCU do what they do well, rewatching them a second time however there's little substance still to them. With DC's films, I can rewatch them many times over because in the end they don't do something for a cheap laugh or to be popular, they do something because they want to take their characters and story somewhere, and they hit the right beats, the right tones and more importantly they don't try to undermine their drama to get a quick one liner in there. Whether they succeed is up to everyone personally, but for me, hands down I think DC are making better films that Marvel, the only thing Marvel are doing better is having everything connected.

I'm quite the opposite to you in the sense that I find Marvel too "fun", it doesn't reflect the world, it doesn't encourage believability, it makes their stakes extremely low, and ultimately, the characters I just can't care for a lot of them.

Interesting point there about the humour – I found Doctor Strange extremely irritating because of humour that just didn't hit the target, but worst culprit so far was Homecoming –*I swear they purposely put pauses after puns to let the audience laugh!
The MCU are going to shoot themselves in the foot – they seem to think after GoTG, that every movie now should follow that formula – and repeating that formula I feel is starting to hurt their BO... the general audience is starting to have had enough... you can't tell me they're not disappointed with Homecoming's performance.

 

[JonD7]

I feel the same way some of you do, I feel like these "fun event" style films won't have the same appeal 20 years later like 89 Barman or Robocop still does.
I think aside from maybe 4 or 5 Marvel films, most of them are bad or mediocre.

I think MoS, BvS and WW are masterpieces and they got each character right.

 

[dario2739]

I feel the same way some of you do, I feel like these "fun event" style films won't have the same appeal 20 years later like 89 Barman or Robocop still does.
I think aside from maybe 4 or 5 Marvel films, most of them are bad or mediocre.

I think MoS, BvS and WW are masterpieces and they got each character right.

You only have to look at the Watchmen movie, and how that is now being re-appraised and lauded by people as a classic, as proof.

 

[JonD7]

You only have to look at the Watchmen movie, and how that is now being re-appraised and lauded by people as a classic, as proof.

Ah yeah, I do see more people praising that film recently, man I really wished Hot Toys would have given us a Rorschach figure.

 

[dario2739]

Ah yeah, I do see more people praising that film recently, man I really wished Hot Toys would have given us a Rorschach figure.

Hell yeah –*Rorschach was superb in Watchmen - Jackie Earl Haley I consider to be the best casting of any comic book movie so far... Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Patrick Wilson brilliant casting too!

 

[SilverStar17]

Then it's not so much how well it does, you, and many people, just don't like that atmosphere the DCEU has. I personally think it fits with what they're doing, and the stories and characters all work extremely well within it, and more than that the characters where they are, specifically Batman, is a fresh take that I welcome. Personally I feel Marvel is too happy-go-lucky, and when they try to be serious it falls on its head - I agree with Dario, they change their characters so much just to capitalise on what fans are liking. If you take Thor from the first Thor and do a direct comparison to him from the trailers of Ragnarok, he's completely changed and doesn't seem like the Thor they went all in with from the first two films. They've heavily made it like Guardians also. For me, MCU do what they do well, rewatching them a second time however there's little substance still to them. With DC's films, I can rewatch them many times over because in the end they don't do something for a cheap laugh or to be popular, they do something because they want to take their characters and story somewhere, and they hit the right beats, the right tones and more importantly they don't try to undermine their drama to get a quick one liner in there. Whether they succeed is up to everyone personally, but for me, hands down I think DC are making better films that Marvel, the only thing Marvel are doing better is having everything connected.

I'm quite the opposite to you in the sense that I find Marvel too "fun", it doesn't reflect the world, it doesn't encourage believability, it makes their stakes extremely low, and ultimately, the characters I just can't care for a lot of them.

My sentiments precisely.

For my personal taste, I enjoy what the DCEU is doing better than the MCU and when the MCU was as far into their universe as what the DCEU currently is in theirs, I think the DCEU hands down has the better films. To be utterly honest, in my opinion, there's only three MCU films that I thought were slightly better than WW (TWS, GotG and CW) and none that were better than BvS (UE). Not sure where MoS ranks yet because I haven't fully decided if I think WW or MoS was the better film for me personally, but MoS I think still beats out at least 80% of the MCU.

As I've always stated, DC in my opinion have generally been far better in their films at conveying emotion, more seriousness and verisimilitude in the sense of touching on real world issues and the likely ramifications of decisions made by the characters, and a better story, but the MCU is generally good for laughs and fun. For my personal taste as far as superhero films go, I prefer the former. I enjoy both though for what they bring to the table; each one has one the other one lacks.

 

[sj2106]

My sentiments precisely.

For my personal taste, I enjoy what the DCEU is doing better than the MCU and when the MCU was as far into their universe as what the DCEU currently is in theirs, I think the DCEU hands down has the better films. To be utterly honest, in my opinion, there's only three MCU films that I thought were slightly better than WW (TWS, GotG and CW) and none that were better than BvS (UE). Not sure where MoS ranks yet because I haven't fully decided if I think WW or MoS was the better film for me personally, but MoS I think still beats out at least 80% of the MCU.

As I've always stated, DC in my opinion have generally been far better in their films at conveying emotion, more seriousness and verisimilitude in the sense of touching on real world issues and the likely ramifications of decisions made by the characters, and a better story, but the MCU is generally good for laughs and fun. For my personal taste as far as superhero films go, I prefer the former. I enjoy both though for what they bring to the table; each one has one the other one lacks.

I guess we all see things differently which is never a bad thing. For me WW is the best DC movie since TDK. I'm probably a little biased with it being her first full live action movie. There have been so many Batman movies and a few Superman movies, it was just cool to see another great DC character get some screen time.

The next few years should be pretty awesome with more characters usually confined to comics and animated series getting the live action treatment.

 

[sgzenith]

Does this come with a Ben Affleck head sculpt?

 

[Ppk487]

Does this come with a Ben Affleck head sculpt?

No one knows. We hope to see a reveal soon.

 

[TheBatman]

My sentiments precisely.

For my personal taste, I enjoy what the DCEU is doing better than the MCU and when the MCU was as far into their universe as what the DCEU currently is in theirs, I think the DCEU hands down has the better films. To be utterly honest, in my opinion, there's only three MCU films that I thought were slightly better than WW (TWS, GotG and CW) and none that were better than BvS (UE). Not sure where MoS ranks yet because I haven't fully decided if I think WW or MoS was the better film for me personally, but MoS I think still beats out at least 80% of the MCU.

As I've always stated, DC in my opinion have generally been far better in their films at conveying emotion, more seriousness and verisimilitude in the sense of touching on real world issues and the likely ramifications of decisions made by the characters, and a better story, but the MCU is generally good for laughs and fun. For my personal taste as far as superhero films go, I prefer the former. I enjoy both though for what they bring to the table; each one has one the other one lacks.

I think they are "better" films since the MCU already scouted the market, figured out what worked, made mistakes etc.

DCEU just essentially took what worked with the MCU and put a more serious tone to it (and they still failed, mind you).

Im not trying to insinuate any copycats or anything but I feel DCEU is being given much more credit than it currently deserves (except for WW).

 

[Helghan]

I think they are "better" films since the MCU already scouted the market, figured out what worked, made mistakes etc.

DCEU just essentially took what worked with the MCU and put a more serious tone to it (and they still failed, mind you).

Im not trying to insinuate any copycats or anything but I feel DCEU is being given much more credit than it currently deserves (except for WW).

I don't want them copying Marvel Studios though. The best Marvel movies at the moment are Deadpool, Logan and First Class. The only Marvel Studios movie I feel holds up on any level is Winter Soldier.

The problem is the marvel formula. It aims at the cheap seats, but majority of the movies just mess up the simplest of story telling. It needlessly dumbs down the medium to appeal to the masses. Truth be told I got bored of the Marvel Universe by the time Thor came out. When I saw the first Avengers movie in the cinemas I was just bored. I don't know why we needed 90 minutes of vignettes and shameful fan service. I felt it lacked subtance and style. I've seen every one of them and yeah. It was a successful act in advertising, but as a movie, as a form of literature, of what the medium can accomplish and how it represemnts the medium it's based upon. Bleh! Looking at Thor Ragnarok, it's looking more like Guardians of the Galaxy. It's manufactured/ focus tested to the heavens and offers zero substance. These movies tend to be over 2 hours long when they should be 90 minutes tops.

I love comic books, particularly DC, but I'm speaking here as a cinemafile and I'm bored of samey movies that are poorly told even with paper thin plots that lack any character development and proper exploration of themes that feel "complete". As much as I like the characters and subject matter, I hate the idea of franchises and movie universes. Don't care being caught up in the marketing especially if films like the Avengers and Rogue One are the end result.

I wanted to love Wonder Woman, there are a lot of little things that I like, but by the end I felt they just didn't know what to do with the character. Some excellent scenes like the No Man's Land and veld. The chemistry between Diana and Steve worked. I like how he was telling her "What if it isn't just one guy, but humanity that's the problem". Alsas, the ending screws it all up with the whole "You defeated the Evil that was here!" ending and an unecessary jumping into the sunset to punch the sky? Poorly thought out. I kinda hate it. No where near as good as Man of Steel.

BVS on the other hand. Magnificent. Not afraid to toss in an acurate portrait of the world we live in and question the idea of the Superhero. Excellent exploration of not just moral ambiguity, moral relativity, but also moral subjectivity. That is a proper film. Not what people expected, and whenever I talk to someone that hates it they just go on about tone, and there not being enough set pieces and action....sigh

It's not just the tone, the characters in the DCEU are just written better. It's funny how people can praise Marvel for taking place in real locations and that the characters are so under powered that they can be relateable, but the movies don't seem to want to confront or explore anything. Just look at AntMan. What was the conflict again?

 

[Futurion]

You forgot first Iron Man.

 

[SilverStar17]

I think they are "better" films since the MCU already scouted the market, figured out what worked, made mistakes etc.

DCEU just essentially took what worked with the MCU and put a more serious tone to it (and they still failed, mind you).

Im not trying to insinuate any copycats or anything I feel DCEU is being given much more credit than it currently deserves (except for WW).

Even though I enjoy it, that's actually how I feel about the MCU.

And while I enjoyed WW and feel it's one of the better superhero films out there in general, I feel that it was still pretty much your standard generic superhero film that didn't really take too many gambles and just focused on appealing to the masses (which is what I think the plan is for JL). It was just done better than most and at the end of the film, I felt did explore some interesting points regarding WW's view of mankind and Steve Trevor's sacrifice, and tying that in to Superman's sacrifice in BvS and why she was moved by it.

If WB wants to focus on simply appealing to the masses I totally get that because in the end it is all about money, but I just hope they find a formula that manages to retain the same type of themes and tones they've explored in their previous films and merely blend them in with the MCU style of having some humor thrown in here and there, but in the right places.

I don't want them copying Marvel Studios though. The best Marvel movies at the moment are Deadpool, Logan and First Class. The only Marvel Studios movie I feel holds up on any level is Winter Soldier.

The problem is the marvel formula. It aims at the cheap seats, but majority of the movies just mess up the simplest of story telling. It needlessly dumbs down the medium to appeal to the masses. Truth be told I got bored of the Marvel Universe by the time Thor came out. When I saw the first Avengers movie in the cinemas I was just bored. I don't know why we needed 90 minutes of vignettes and shameful fan service. I felt it lacked subtance and style. I've seen every one of them and yeah. It was a successful act in advertising, but as a movie, as a form of literature, of what the medium can accomplish and how it represemnts the medium it's based upon. Bleh! Looking at Thor Ragnarok, it's looking more like Guardians of the Galaxy. It's manufactured/ focus tested to the heavens and offers zero substance. These movies tend to be over 2 hours long when they should be 90 minutes tops.

I love comic books, particularly DC, but I'm speaking here as a cinemafile and I'm bored of samey movies that are poorly told even with paper thin plots that lack any character development and proper exploration of themes that feel "complete". As much as I like the characters and subject matter, I hate the idea of franchises and movie universes. Don't care being caught up in the marketing especially if films like the Avengers and Rogue One are the end result.

I wanted to love Wonder Woman, there are a lot of little things that I like, but by the end I felt they just didn't know what to do with the character. Some excellent scenes like the No Man's Land and veld. The chemistry between Diana and Steve worked. I like how he was telling her "What if it isn't just one guy, but humanity that's the problem". Alsas, the ending screws it all up with the whole "You defeated the Evil that was here!" ending and an unecessary jumping into the sunset to punch the sky? Poorly thought out. I kinda hate it. No where near as good as Man of Steel.

BVS on the other hand. Magnificent. Not afraid to toss in an acurate portrait of the world we live in and question the idea of the Superhero. Excellent exploration of not just moral ambiguity, moral relativity, but also moral subjectivity. That is a proper film. Not what people expected, and whenever I talk to someone that hates it they just go on about tone, and there not being enough set pieces and action....sigh

It's not just the tone, the characters in the DCEU are just written better. It's funny how people can praise Marvel for taking place in real locations and that the characters are so under powered that they can be relateable, but the movies don't seem to want to confront or explore anything. Just look at AntMan. What was the conflict again?

Good post. Agree with a lot of your points, particularly about BvS and that's why for my personal taste, I think it's the best superhero film to date. It paints an accurate picture of the tone of the world we currently live in and where the idea of a "Superman" fits into it. Aside from the fact that he posesses God-like abilities, but just the notion of "Superman" and the ideals he stands for, are impugned and scrutinized. And despite that, he still sacrifices himself for the betterment of mankind because through Lois, he realizes that there are people out there who deserve that sacrifice that he decided to make because by doing it for her, he was vicariously doing it for all of those people as well. To me, it doesn't get anymore "Superman" like than that: to still sacrifice yourself for a society that by and large, maligned you.

I applaud them for holding up a mirror to today's world and placing these characters right in the middle of those conflicts, as opposed to just making Superman "Superman" right out of the gate where he's venerated by everyone and his ideals aren't challenged, and his very existence and actions aren't viewed as political acts (since seemingly everything today is politicized).

The stakes in DCEU films with their major characters just seem to feel more "real" per se than what they do in MCU films (with the exception of a couple). That not everyone might make it out of the fight alive, that there might not necessarily be a winner and a loser, but perhaps both parties losing or both parties winning. With the MCU, it's way too predictable and you know exactly what to expect in the final battles; that everyone is going to make it out alive without really having to take any risks (sometimes even taking the time to make some wisecracks in the middle of battle), and all will be well again in the end. Never the less, I still enjoy it for what it's meant to be. Those are just my views on the two though.