Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?

[Prime Clone]

I know I probably shouldn't be reopening an old debate that's been done to death, but with the Palps two-pack just around the corner and the inevitable dioramas that will follow, I figured: What the heck!!!

I know most people will probably answer Palps, but I reckon the Mace option is the more tragic - he came so close to saving the galaxy.

 

[pixletwin]

You folks who vote for Mace are all kidding yourself. Palpatine was only toying with Mace and was only toying with Anakin.

Palpatine > Mace. :emperor

 

[DarthNeil]

You folks who vote for Mace are all kidding yourself. Palpatine only toying with Mace and toying with Anakin.

Palpatine > Mace. :emperor

Exactly. :emperor
All part of the master plan-- He knew that Anakin was on his way in and rather than destroy Mace he used the situation to finally force (excuse the pun) Anakin to choose his path.

It is an old debate but with the soon to be arriving Palpatine 2-pack and the announcement of the 1:1 Emperor it seems to be a good time to revisit this healthy debate.

 

[KitFisto]

Mace, period. Palpatine HOPED Skywalker would turn, but didn't know for sure. Yes, he did "ham it up" with the "I am so weak" stuff, but that was to aid in the turn of Skywalker. Mace beat Palpatine and Palpatine needed Anakin to turn to save his ass.

 

[tylerd]

palpatine was having his greatest defense, finger electric, reflected back upon him when anakin cut off mace's arm. if palpatine was winning, what was he waiting for while being disfigured by his own electrical charge? if not for anakin, palpatine would have died. no question.

 

[KitFisto]

Also, all of this "Power of the dark side" and "unlimited power" stuff was a bunch of crap.....from what we have seen the "power of the dark side" = sith lighting......wow.

 

[Lembas Eater]

If I have this right, his "disfigurement" was actually revealling his true face, hidden by the force. He simply stopped wasting his energy that way and later used the battle as an excuse for his appearance. There was a line in the book or perhaps an early script, that said something like "I'll miss the face of Palpatine but it served me well."

 

[DarthNeil]

Mace, period. Palpatine HOPED Skywalker would turn, but didn't know for sure. Yes, he did "ham it up" with the "I am so weak" stuff, but that was to aid in the turn of Skywalker. Mace beat Palpatine and Palpatine needed Anakin to turn to save his ass.

"Soon I WILL have a new apprentice."

Not "Soon I HOPE to have a new apprentice." The writing was on the wall.

palpatine was having his greatest defense, finger electric, reflected back upon him when anakin cut off mace's arm. if palpatine was winning, what was he waiting for while being disfigured by his own electrical charge? if not for anakin, palpatine would have died. no question.

What is Palpatine doing as soon as Anakin comes in?... He's talking to HIM. He's not focused on Mace-- he's focused on turning Anakin. If Palpatine dispatched Mace in that moment then Anakin would have naturally jumped forward to defend his Jedi council master (just as Anakin naturally ignited his lightsaber earlier at Palpatine as soon as he discovered that he was the Sith lord)-- the physical meant nothing to Palpatine, it was the conversion of the young Skywalker to the path of the Sith that was all important.

What does he say to Yoda when they are going to fight?... Even if he dies he doesn't matter because Darth Vader will become more powerful. If he's saying that he doesn't worry about death as long as Vader continues the Sith legacy do you honestly think a little physical deformity is going to be upsetting?

:emperor (UNLIMITED POWER)

 

[KitFisto]

"Soon I WILL have a new apprentice."

Not "Soon I HOPE to have a new apprentice." The writing was on the wall.



What is Palpatine doing as soon as Anakin comes in?... He's talking to HIM. He's not focused on Mace-- he's focused on turning Anakin. If Palpatine dispatched Mace in that moment then Anakin would have naturally jumped forward to defend his Jedi council master (just as Anakin naturally ignited his lightsaber earlier at Palpatine as soon as he discovered that he was the Sith lord)-- the physical meant nothing to Palpatine, it was the conversion of the young Skywalker to the path of the Sith that was all important.

What does he say to Yoda when they are going to fight?... Even if he dies he doesn't matter because Darth Vader will become more powerful. If he's saying that he doesn't worry about death as long as Vader continues the Sith legacy do you honestly think a little physical deformity is going to be upsetting?

:emperor (UNLIMITED POWER)

I disagree. He can say "Anakin will be more powerful than either of us", but was he right? No so he didn't KNOW he was right about soon having a new apprentice either. He wasn't all knowing and all powerful...he just thought he was.

 

[tylerd]

"Soon I WILL have a new apprentice."

Not "Soon I HOPE to have a new apprentice." The writing was on the wall.



What is Palpatine doing as soon as Anakin comes in?... He's talking to HIM. He's not focused on Mace-- he's focused on turning Anakin. If Palpatine dispatched Mace in that moment then Anakin would have naturally jumped forward to defend his Jedi council master (just as Anakin naturally ignited his lightsaber earlier at Palpatine as soon as he discovered that he was the Sith lord)-- the physical meant nothing to Palpatine, it was the conversion of the young Skywalker to the path of the Sith that was all important.

What does he say to Yoda when they are going to fight?... Even if he dies he doesn't matter because Darth Vader will become more powerful. If he's saying that he doesn't worry about death as long as Vader continues the Sith legacy do you honestly think a little physical deformity is going to be upsetting?

:emperor (UNLIMITED POWER)

seemed to me anakin was torn between the light and the dark. palpatine knew without anakin's assistance, he was dead. his only recourse was to convince anakin to side with him, and in reality, the dark side.

 

[DarthNeil]

seemed to me anakin was torn between the light and the dark. palpatine knew without anakin's assistance, he was dead. his only recourse was to convince anakin to side with him, and in reality, the dark side.

I agree with your logic-- that Anakin was torn. For that reason Palpatine needed something to push him over the edge. Playing the role of victim made him look sympathetic, but when he suggested that he was the only one that could possibly save Padme's life and Mace was pushed to take the law into his own hands it was the threat of losing that chance to save Padme that finally pushed Anakin into action (down the wrong path).

 

[Cocoboloboy]

:emperor Palpatine all the way!:emperor The guy took out two Jedi's like they were nothing then left Mace alive in order to use him to turn Anakin. If Anakin had jumped in to help Mace then they both would have been toast.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Exactly. :emperor
All part of the master plan-- He knew that Anakin was on his way in and rather than destroy Mace he used the situation to finally force (excuse the pun) Anakin to choose his path.

It is an old debate but with the soon to be arriving Palpatine 2-pack and the announcement of the 1:1 Emperor it seems to be a good time to revisit this healthy debate.

100% correct. I got the same vibe from the novelization as well. And you have to take into account that the war and it's effect on the galaxy had made the Dark Side more prevalent than the light, giving Palpatine more energy to use to his advantage. His "undamaged" face was all an illusion, maintained through the Force and Sith techniques. He felt Anakin as he arrived, and started his facade accordingly.

Everything for Palpatine was premeditated. He had foreseen it all, long planned every detail. The only thing that was up in the air and holding him back, was turning the chosen one. So he focused his efforts on that single thing, and had he not succeeded in doing so... Anakin could have destroyed him eventually.... as was his destiny.

In the Novel, even Mace realizes this before his is killed... That Anakin is the Shatterpoint for the entire galaxy, and that he had been played along with Mace. He knew he had walked right into Palpatine's trap.

 

[KitFisto]

To manke this simple....post a poll as to who likes the dark side more nad who likes the light side more.....there is you answer as to how they will vote in this poll.

 

[DarkArtist81]

He wasn't all knowing and all powerful...he just thought he was.

Well, Palpatine used Sith techniques to "see" into the future. And he knew that if he influenced certain people and situations, he could use them to his advantage. So in a way, he was all powerful... At least until Luke came around and didn't do as he was directed.

 

[DarkArtist81]

To manke this simple....post a poll as to who likes the dark side more nad who likes the light side more.....there is you answer as to how they will vote in this poll.

Well, I am definitely NOT a disciple of the Dark Side. I consider myself more of a lover of the Light Side... Obi Wan is my hero... not Palpatine.

 

[Cheesus]

I disagree. He can say "Anakin will be more powerful than either of us", but was he right? No so he didn't KNOW he was right about soon having a new apprentice either. He wasn't all knowing and all powerful...he just thought he was.

In TPM Anakin was revealed as having more midichorians than any Jedi, including Yoda. By telling Yoda that Vader would be more powerful than either, Sideous revealed that he knew this and was including himself to that scale too.

As for knowledge, his goal was to pass that Anakin. Having the combined knowledge of both the Jedi and Sith teachings along with his ability to access the Force, Vader would have been more powerful than either Yoda or Sideous.

However, by losing his battle to Obi-Wan, that Force potential was severely cut down.

 

[Prime Clone]

Palpatine's prescience wasn't flawless - take the Battle of Endor, for instance!

 

[DarkArtist81]

In TPM Anakin was revealed as having more midichorians than any Jedi, including Yoda. By telling Yoda that Vader would be more powerful than either, Sideous revealed that he knew this and was including himself to that scale too.

As for knowledge, his goal was to pass that Anakin. Having the combined knowledge of both the Jedi and Sith teachings along with his ability to access the Force, Vader would have been more powerful than either Yoda or Sideous.

However, by losing his battle to Obi-Wan, that Force potential was severely cut down.

Yeah.... THAT loss on Mustafar was something that Palpatine hadn't counted on for sure, even though it served him even better than had Anakin won. I think that Palpatine turning Anakin was a method of control and survival, keeping your enemies closer.. kind of thing. But now, having Anakin burned badly and only a shadow of his former self.... That not only limits his control over the Force, but also gives Palpatine the upper hand.

Not to mention that he would now have NO ONE to oppose him. Hence, why he is laughing in Vader's moment of pain at the end of ROTS. He knows that he has won.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Palpatine's prescience wasn't flawless - take the Battle of Endor, for instance!

By that time, Palpatine had grown a bit more pretentious. And the Light Side was making a comeback in the galaxy, hope had taken hold again. He knew if he could turn Luke, that they could escape the Rebels and he would have a chance to defeat them. Luke denied him and the rest is history. His faith in his "future Sith Sense" had become a weakness.... and it killed him.