The Phantom Menace: It actually isn't that bad!

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Khev

Super Freak
CF Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
55,505
Reaction score
11,542
Location
Eden Prairie, MN
After I got my Harmy discs I was going to swear off the PT for pretty much, well, ever. But I liked the finale of Rebels so much that I figured I'd give those 13 "lost episodes" of TCW a chance. And then I really liked *those.* Particularly the bit about there being a difference between the "Living Force" and the "Cosmic Force" and how the Living Force communicates its "will" to certain individuals through midichlorians but that the Cosmic Force is what properly trained Jedi or Sith can control.

"It controls your actions?"

"Partially, but it also obeys your commands." --Luke and Obi-Wan (1977)

Hmmmm. You know I actually don't hate that and it keeps Luke and his coolness with the Cosmic Force somehwat separate from some of the science mumbo jumbo of the midichlorians and all that. My whole thing with new SW movies in general is pretty much "do whatever you want, just don't make the OT stupid with any retcons." So I really don't mind there being tiny little creatures or this living off shoot of the Force, especially if those things raise more questions than they answer. Just keep my Luke and Death Star attack and all that separate and cool like it's always been. :)

On to Phantom Menace.

I watched it again. Twice. Twice because I really found myself not hating it the first time. Twice because after I watched it once I viewed the special features and was reminded that pretty damn near EVERYTHING except individual creatures like Jar Jar, Battle Droids, and so on was NOT cgi. All the ships were models; the giant Federation battleship, the Naboo fighters, even the Queen's chrome starship was a live model coated in mylar tape to give it the chrome effect. I think the pod racers were CG but they looked damn good.

It had real locations, it had real sets, it had an AMAZINGLY cool villain (Darth Maul.) And Liam Neeson, he was just the MAN. I know that red letter media or whatever did that whole thing were they ripped on the movie because it didn't have a central hero. I disagree. I think it was definitely Qui Gon. I think our minds just see him as the "mentor" or Ben Kenobi character so we don't give him enough credit. But he drives damn near everything in the movie. The Federation negotiations, the decision to follow Jar Jar to the underwater city, the negotiations with Boss Nass, the picking up of Jar Jar and later Anakin. He spearheads the rescue of the Queen. All the haggling with Watto. The decision to free Anakin and then train him. Qui Gon, Qui Gon, Qui Gon. And he's just so damn cool. He really comes through the movie unscathed. He's unamused by Jar Jar, talks back to Padme ("No more commands from the Queen today," LOVE IT,) treats the Jedi rules as more "guidelines" than a code. He figures out that the transmissions from Naboo are just to establish a connection trace (which is correct.)

He dies but not in the typical SW humiliating way but as a badass who simply gets outfought. I love how he gets pissed when Watto won't be mind-controlled and gives the alien a courtesy "eff you" smile before turning and leaving without a word. Then when Padme and Anakin are smack dab in the middle of a conversation he just strides through, states "we're leaving" and doesn't even wait for them to wrap up their discussion. He's the MAN. He really does make being a Jedi "cool."

The big weakness of the film, IMO, is Jake Lloyd as Anakin and the Tatooine sequences in general. When Qui Gon isn't being a bad ass they're definitely a bit of a struggle to sit through. All the goofy aliens, groups of little kids who CANNOT act that are clearly children of ILM employees who each conveniently get one line each. SO bad. But it's still cool seeing real live Tunisia and all the little huts and things they built. Some of the background aliens/bounty hunters/space pilots do look really cool too.

The Naboo stuff is my favorite and serves as nice bookends to the film. The Gungan ground battle and Naboo space battle are literally the only times in the entire PT (okay save for about 30 seconds of Wookiees fighting in ROTS) that actual living "good guys" are giving their lives to a battle and not just robotic robots fighting robotic clones that no one really cares about.

The Maul saber duel is SPECTACULAR and if you can't watch those hangar doors opening in front of Maul when the music starts up and not still get goosebumps these many years later then something is wrong with you. :) Definitely the best duel of the prequels by far and on par in coolness with the OT.

But here's the biggy. The thing that really changed my mind. If you skipped most of this post because it's too long start reading here!

PALPATINE'S PLAN

I always thought it was so *ridiculously* elaborate and contrived. We know he wants to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy. So his plan was to get the Trade Federation to create a blockade around Naboo so that a domino effect could occur where Amidala flees to Tatooine, where he has conceived or somehow foreseen this Anakin kid to be. The "alarming chain of events" will get Anakin to be whisked away to Coruscant while he falls in love with Padme, his mother dies, he becomes enraged and helps Palpatine kill the Jedi. But before that Palpatine also makes sure that Amidala (who would have been kidnapped and taken to Naboo to sign a treaty if Maul succeeded on Tatooine) would actually FLEE to Coruscant where she can do the whole "no confidence" thing and get Palpatine elected. WHAT???

How the hell could anyone puppeteer everything so perfectly to make all that happen? Oh yeah, "maxi big the Force" bla bla bla. It just seemed like such an ill thought out ridiculous stretch for that all to be Palpatine's plan. But whatever, its the prequels and par for the course.

But then I read an original synopsis for "The Star Wars" or whatever back from the 70's. It spelled out more what Palpatine was doing. Before he had an Empire at his disposal he did indeed trick the Trade Federation into raising import/export taxes on distant worlds that had been colonized and didn't have the planetary resources to sustain themselves. When the taxes skyrocketed those planets could no longer afford to import goods and THOUSANDS of them starved and were wiped out. That caused turmoil and outrage in the Republic and he used that leverage to unseat the Chancellor.

So he wasn't all about the red tape of tax percentages and people properly filling out their forms on April 15th or having to add this or that to the cost of a new gun. No, he just didn't have an army so he used political methods to do the SAME thing he would later use the Death Star for. *Wipe out entire planets.* Then once he got the power and the technology he was free to use the more direct approach for keeping people in line. That's pretty freaking cool if you ask me.

I was watching TPM and here he was on the balcony with Darth Maul telling him to go to Tatooine, capture the Queen and take her to Naboo to sign the treaty. I thought why the hell wouldn't he just come clean to his own apprentice? "Chase her but don't capture her. I need her to speak up in the Senate and get me elected." Why not say that? Because that WASN'T his plan. That was his improvisation when she DIDN'T sign the treaty and Naboo didn't stop exporting to other worlds causing their destruction. With the trade embargo kind of stuttering and her in Coruscant he immediately figured out an even quicker way for her to be useful. Trick her (with seemingly sound logic) into setting him up as Supreme Leader with just her planet in peril instead of thousands. And she was so persuasive that it worked.

Suddenly I feel like I "got" what Lucas was going for. What was driving everything and what George pretty much messed up in conveying. I guess he just didn't think it was necessary or that he assumed people would mull over all the dialogue to piece Palpatine's plan together. I don't think Palpatine used the midichlorians to create Anakin anymore. I think that was just another lie that he threw out there in ROTS because he knew that Anakin knew that he didn't have a conventional dad. I think the "Living Force" was picking up on Palpatine's plan and created Anakin to thwart him. Tatooine and all that was Force manipulation in response to the disturbance created by the Sith, not Palpatine's own insanely engineered plan.

So I recognize where George blew it big time. All he had to do was add an extra line to the opening scroll. Why was the Death Star a threat? Because it could blow up a freaking planet! When did we learn this? The opening scroll! "Turmoil has engulfed the Republic. The taxation to outlying star systems is in dispute. If trade of valuable resources becomes too expensive entire worlds will perish." That's all that it would have taken! Then the gravity of the situation would have been there from minute one. But alas, George probably wanted it to be this big mystery but it was never explained and became this big confusing thing.

So yeah, you've got to connect the dots and that is the apologist approach. But I also think it is the *correct* interpretation of events especially if you read the original backstory synopsis from back in the day, which I readily admit you shouldn't have to do, but still looking at things with that in mind really elevates the entire situation IMO.
 
Last edited:
I haven't read all of your post, but I agree that TPM is by far the best of the prequels.

EDIT - The Trade Federation is in the original "The Star Wars" script? I don't remember that. I read it nearly a decade ago. I should revisit it (or just pick up the Dark Horse adaptation).
 
Last edited:
I have believed this for a few years. TPM gets better as time goes on. However, you should do yourself the favor of getting a hold of L8TWRTR's edit of all the PT (I think TPM is called Shadows of the Sith or some such).
 
I haven't read all of your post, but I agree that TPM is by far the best of the prequels.

You said it, BY FAR!

EDIT - The Trade Federation is in the original "The Star Wars" script?

Not the "original" original treatment/outlines from 1973 and 1974. "Trader Barons" and escalating taxes that cause entire planets to perish were first mentioned in 1975 (the third draft I believe):

The First Galactic Empire is born under the new Emperor Cos Da****. The systems are exploited by a new economic policy which raises the cost of power and transport to unbelievable heights. Many worlds are destroyed this way and many people starve. The Sith become the personal bodyguards of the Emperor, and the Master of the Bogan, Espaa Valorum, moves to Alderaan to share power with the Emperor. The Jedi are outlawed and sentenced to death.

The Republic Galactica is now dead. Ruthless trader barons, driven by greed and the lust for power, have replaced enlightenment with oppression, and “rule by the people” with the Empire. But the Seers speak a prophecy that the Son of the Suns, the last of the Starkiller line, will bring down the Empire. “In the time of greatest despair there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as The Son of the Suns.”
One by one, the now outlawed Jedi are hunted down and destroyed by the deadly Sith knights until only two or three Jedi families remain in hiding, still fighting to free the systems from the grip of the Empire. In the campaign against the Jedi, Espaa Valorum kills four of the sons of the Starkiller, and thinks that he has killed all of them.

That gives a lot of credibility to TPM's proceedings IMO, so it really does touch on backstory that preceded even ANH. Interesting to actually SEE the "prophecy" spelled out which, again, is never actually explained in the prequels. But now that we know that the "savior/chosen one" was supposed to "rise out of the time of greatest despair" it makes more sense why Mace Windu was less than thrilled to hear that Qui Gon thought he found him. Things were pretty good at the time and the presence of someone who foreshadowed such despair would NOT have been a welcome sight. Again, all George had to do was actually TELL people what the bloody prophecy said! TPM really does have a good story, IMO, too much of it is just buried in the subtext. But *knowing* the subtext makes it all the more enjoyable IMO.

Here's a pretty cool site that breaks down a lot of the drafts and versions:

Star Wars | Starkiller

I have believed this for a few years. TPM gets better as time goes on

"You said ripping on TPM was a bad idea, well I'm beginning to agree with you."
 
Last edited:
Agreed, best of the prequels by far....always thought that. I enjoyed TPM when I saw it at the theater but was let down by Ep II and III. They just didn't feel like Star Wars to me. Great score too.
 
I hadn't watchted it since... I don't know, but I ended up watching the whole saga again about a month ago, and i do agree that seen in the whole, it's far from being as bad as I remembered it!

... But... There's Jar Jar Binks....

I still have a hard time with the character. Well, Lucas loves adding/suppressing stuff in his re editions, so hopefully, one day, he'll erase it!:)
 
........The Phantom Menace is a solid film. Take away five minutes of Jar Jar antics and some of Jake Lloyd's more cringe-worthy lines and I believe the over-all reception of the film would have been more positive.
 
I think it's an enjoyable movie. Just a pity it has a 9 year old Anakin Skywalker in it - we didn't need to go back that far in Vader's life. Having said that, not like the older Anakin was any better considering how he was written and acted.
 
worst part is Jar Jar and the pod race looney toon show... HATE IT .. if they would take out the childish crap it would be very good ! As you mentioned.. the plot plan of Palpi is simply great and the Hitler strategy is right there
 
I read your entire post, khev. Nice points...

Thanks. :duff

........The Phantom Menace is a solid film. Take away five minutes of Jar Jar antics and some of Jake Lloyd's more cringe-worthy lines and I believe the over-all reception of the film would have been more positive.

THIS. ^^^^^^^^^

It's pretty shocking how out there Jar Jar is and how irritating young Anakin is at times. And Ric Ollie, good grief he's a terrible actor. Then some of the lines (again, mostly given to Anakin "are you an angel, this is podracing," etc.) Not good at all. But what's nice is that if you aren't into Anakin he doesn't muck up the saber duel for instance. I like that George separated the finales so that the various duels are compartmentalized. It's too bad that George didn't trim some of the more annoying moments and replace them with just a little more explanation about what the prophecy said and what those Federation taxes would have led to. A couple minutes deleted and a couple minutes added would have changed the entire perception of the film, just like you say.

However, I think if you just kind of say "oh well" about some of the sillier elements you've still got one nice solid prequel-era film to enjoy.
 
....My two least favorite Star Wars films are The Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi. Not to say I don't like them, but on my list of Star Wars films they finish 5th and 6th. I think a big reason for that is they are so similar in some ways in reverse.
Both have:
-A three theater climax (land battle, space battle, light saber battle)
-A major element of cartoonish childishness (Jar Jar/Ewoks)
-A three participant Force battle... TPM: Two Jedi v One Sith/RotJ: Two Sith v One Jedi. (Both battles end with a Sith falling into a bottomless pit.)
-The Naboo must defend a shield generator and knock out a space station to destroy an army on the ground/The rebels must knock out a shield generator on the ground to destroy a space station.
 
I've always loved the production design. Doug Chiang's work at creating the visual look of the the time before the Empire was fantastic.

ST7x-L.jpg


ST8x-L.jpg


Gungan_sacred_place_concept.png


Doug_Chiang_The_Phantom_Menace.jpg
 
I always repeat the same thing whenever the topic of PT comes up - All is good and dandy until you watch the 'Mister Plinkett SW Reviews'. Just google that, or 'Red Letter Media SW Review' ( both will lead to the same pages), and you might save yourself some money on collectibles from those 3 movies. :)
 
....My two least favorite Star Wars films are The Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi. Not to say I don't like them, but on my list of Star Wars films they finish 5th and 6th. I think a big reason for that is they are so similar in some ways in reverse.
Both have:
-A three theater climax (land battle, space battle, light saber battle)
-A major element of cartoonish childishness (Jar Jar/Ewoks)
-A three participant Force battle... TPM: Two Jedi v One Sith/RotJ: Two Sith v One Jedi. (Both battles end with a Sith falling into a bottomless pit.)
-The Naboo must defend a shield generator and knock out a space station to destroy an army on the ground/The rebels must knock out a shield generator on the ground to destroy a space station.

It's like poetry.
 
I always repeat the same thing whenever the topic of PT comes up - All is good and dandy until you watch the 'Mister Plinkett SW Reviews'. Just google that, or 'Red Letter Media SW Review'

Yes I mentioned the Red Letter Media review. I watched those reviews for all three PT films and laughed my butt off back in the day. But I do recall that even back then Plinkett was off base on some of his criticisms and in the years since we entered the era of "Honest Trailers" and "Everything Wrong with Such and Such a Movie" that it's pretty clear that you can rip almost any movie to shreds if you want to magnify it's faults and camp out there exclusively.

Not saying that TPM didn't give Plinkett plenty of ammo, because it did, but maybe I'm just getting too old to obsess about how "offensive" it is that TPM messed up in certain areas. Now I'm just "eh, they dropped the ball in a couple of key areas but THESE key areas are totally cool," and as I said I just like the overall style of filmmaking utilized for TPM and the worlds and conflicts that were being portrayed. AOTC and ROTS are another story but I feel like if you give ROTJ a pass you kind of have to for TPM as well.
 
I still thinks its the Worst of the Prequels, but I don't hate it. Jar Jar being the main reason.
 
Best of the Prequels for me. Outside of a few awful lines, an awful character, and a couple scenes, it's actually a pretty awesome movie for many of the reasons you stated. Qui-Gon, Maul, Palpatine, Young Obi-Wan.

The real letdown for me is Attack of the Clones, which was basically just a whining, sniveling young adult awfully acted love story in front of backgrounds made up using Microsoft Paint.
 
I think it was a-dev who pointed out that all the great movies of the past are now criticized as overrated, even garbage in some cases by geek fans for some mysterious reason. I guess this is the Bizarro World version of that, where crappy movies from the past become good in hindsight. :lol

I do like Phantom Menace the most out of the prequels though (or maybe more appropriate to say that I dislike it the least). I like the tone in some scenes quite a bit. I really like the opening scene because of that. And a few things here or there work for it, though it feels like empty calories at the end of the day, and Jar Jar can't be overlooked unfortunately, since he's all in your face here.
 
Back
Top