Muhammad Ali vs Bruce Lee

[greatlakes6]

Most of a boxer's power comes from the legs and being able to put their full bodyweight into the punch. All a martial artist really has to do is take out their legs. End of story.

Lee also had some lightning quick feints he could employ to trick any of these boxers into exposing some incredibly vulnerable points on their neck and head. The kind of force Lee could put behind his hands could easily crush the trachea.

The power in the legs is partially true. It's not a step, but a driving of the leg down. The true power comes from the rotation in the hips and core. The same is true for a hitter in baseball, a tennis player, a golfer, etc. good boxers are taught to develop punching power without needed the leg drive. You need to be ale to deliver a blow from close quarters. Most knockout punches are thrown from inside. Hip rotation is the factor, not leg power.

 

[Frank]

Their hips merely transfer the power generated by the legs. They can use their hips while on their back all they want, it won't help.

 

[greatlakes6]

You must have never been up close to someone with an 84" reach. You honestly think Lee could get that close to affect Ali's head and neck. Don't be silly, he had a 7' reach. For Lee to have any effect at all, he would have to get in close and hit Ali multiple times in vulnerable places. These guys can take a punch. First, he would not get in close enough. Second, boxers do their most damage when the opponent is close. Third, one flush hit from Ali and Lee doesn't get up. That is the end of the story.

 

[greatlakes6]

Their hips merely transfer the power generated by the legs. They can use their hips while on their back all they want, it won't help.

Not completely true. The legs help, but without the legs, a well trained boxer an still hit you hard enough to kill you. The legs provide more power when you step into a punch. Boxers have to be able to deliver a blow without that space. Hips and core, hips and core!

 

[greatlakes6]

Their hips merely transfer the power generated by the legs. They can use their hips while on their back all they want, it won't help.

You're making an awful big assumption that he would be on the ground. How do you suppose he is going to end up there. Again, Lee would have to get close enough. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Frank]

Not completely true. The legs help, but without the legs, a well trained boxer an still hit you hard enough to kill you. The legs provide more power when you step into a punch. Boxers have to be able to deliver a blow without that space.

There's always brute arm strength which all great boxers have. Chances are though once a boxers legs are taken out from under him, any decent martial artist would have a field day. Then there's the issue of boxers not being trained to fight while on the ground either. It's just too much of a disadvantage.

Of course they could still "deliver a blow" but the vast difference between "arm punches" and the full use of the legs can hardly be overstated.

You're making an awful big assumption that he would be on the ground. How do you suppose he is going to end up there. Again, Lee would have to get close enough. Ain't gonna happen.

Do we have any evidence that any of the boxing greats could effectively protect their lower body?

 

[greatlakes6]

Frank,

I can't speak for all boxers, but the great ones have fantastic footwork, balance, and agility. Most of your argument is based on assumptions. I have a degree in Biomechanics and have been doing this for 23 years. I do happen to know what I am talking about and can assure you that I am not assuming, but using information based on scientific fact.

I have coached state wrestling champions, helped to train olympic sprinter Ben Johnson, worked with Tommy Hearns. I'm not arguing based on watching someone on tv.

 

[greatlakes6]

There's always brute arm strength which all great boxers have. Chances are though once a boxers legs are taken out from under him, any decent martial artist would have a field day. Then there's the issue of boxers not being trained to fight while on the ground either. It's just too much of a disadvantage.

Of course they could still "deliver a blow" but the vast difference between "arm punches" and the full use of the legs can hardly be overstated.



Do we have any evidence that any of the boxing greats could effectively protect their lower body?

I will agree that if a boxer is on the ground, advantage grappler. Boxers don't train to fight while on the ground. Doesn't mean they can't, we have no idea about the background for some of these guys. But, if they are on their feet, advantage boxer.

 

[greatlakes6]

Frank,

I've enjoyed our discussion. Thank you.

 

[fosing]

I will agree that if a boxer is on the ground, advantage grappler. Boxers don't train to fight while on the ground. Doesn't mean they can't, we have no idea about the background for some of these guys. But, if they are on their feet, advantage boxer.

not necessarily. boxing like any other sports has its own set of "rules".

other disciplines teach and cover all if not most of the "foul" plays. in a real life street fight, everything is fair game. no rules apply.

Bruce may not be as heavy and has shorter reach. but he has a LOT under his sleeve.

 

[Frank]

Frank,

I can't speak for all boxers, but the great ones have fantastic footwork, balance, and agility. Most of your argument is based on assumptions. I have a degree in Biomechanics and have been doing this for 23 years. I do happen to know what I am talking about and can assure you that I am not assuming, but using information based on scientific fact.

Sounds great, but I'm not talking about putting a boxer up against a regular Joe. Your assumption that somehow footwork that isn't trained to withstand a direct attack is going to be effective in this particular scenario just isn't common sense for me. Subsequently once you disrupt the footwork, which is the real source of power (including the hips), everything else begins to fall like a house of cards. As a fighter this is a huge concession and would in theory be difficult to overcome. It's not even much of a theory anymore either as time and time again we see how weak boxing skills are against various martial art styles.

I'm not saying just any martial artist could take down the boxing greats, but certainly Bruce Lee with his philosophy of using what works in any given fight puts those who rely on a fixed ruleset at an extreme disadvantage.

Your appeal to authority is interesting and I would be fascinated to see more evidence of an experienced boxer being able to overcome an experienced martial artist. Boxing is certainly a difficult and brutal sport to master and all of the boxing greats had tremendous physical ability, but I don't think the biomechanics of that particular sport would enable them to hold their own against a martial arts legend. Feel free to post more on the subject!

Size and power are important but they tend to be mitigated by conditioning, intelligence and technique. All of which Bruce Lee had in spades over the comparatively unrefined talents of the boxing greats of the 20th century.

I will agree that if a boxer is on the ground, advantage grappler. Boxers don't train to fight while on the ground. Doesn't mean they can't, we have no idea about the background for some of these guys. But, if they are on their feet, advantage boxer.

Well, heh, the fight ain't over till someone hits the ground and can't get back up anyway.

It's tough because we have two guys who summed up different boxing styles so perfectly in Frazier and Foreman but with Ali he got away with risky boxing technique because he was so much faster than his competition. He also tended to have longer reach. I just hate to ruin it by throwing in the martial arts wrench in the gears! He would mauintain a sizeable reach over Lee, but remember Bruce was already taking into account fights with much taller men like Kareem.

No, to make this a truly fair and interesting fight, I'd have to give both sides a chance to train for a good year leading up to the event so there would be a chance for Ali to develop a strategy that would keep Lee at bay. I'd still be worried for the man's knees.

Frank,

I've enjoyed our discussion. Thank you.

Much respect! Hope you keep posting. I assume you are a boxer?

 

[greatlakes6]

No, I'm not a boxer. I don't enjoy getting hit. Actually, I'm a professional coach. I specialize in breaking down specific skills (task anaylsis) and helping to make the athlete better, faster, quicker, stronger, smarter. It's very satisfying when they make it to the next level.

 

[Frank]

No, I'm not a boxer. I don't enjoy getting hit. Actually, I'm a professional coach. I specialize in breaking down specific skills (task anaylsis) and helping to make the athlete better, faster, quicker, stronger, smarter. It's very satisfying when they make it to the next level.

Is it focused in boxing or spread out over multiple sports?

 

[shells075]

Ali had to tell everyone he was the greatest.

Everyone just knew that Bruce was.

 

[Frank]

Ali had to tell everyone he was the greatest.

Everyone just knew that Bruce was.

Ali did go along way toward proving it in the ring though. Foreman was an absolute killer in his day. Even Tyson was too scared to fight him!

His brand of intimidation wouldn't work on Lee, but that alone would be worth seeing a match between them.

Ali was the quickest of the big men, then again Lee had to be filmed in 32 fps to catch his moves.

 

[Devil_666]

This is gonna piss off a lot of Bruce Lee fans but it's the truth, and for the life of me I'll never understand why his name (or people like him) are even brought up in discussions like this pertaining to "fights". Because the truth is, no one IN these discussions have ever even seen him in a real fight. And for the people who claim they have, even their accounts vary.

I know Ali could fight. I know what he accomplished as a fighter. Because I've seen it. His fights are documented. I saw him defeat every single top fighter in his division.

Bruce Lee's status as a fighter is myth. It's all word of mouth stories and depending on how close the teller is/was to Bruce you'll hear different accounts i.e.

close = Bruce Lee slaughtered his opponent
not close = Bruce Lee barely won/lost/it was a draw

So if the choice is between a guy who I know can fight, who's accomplishments I've seen vs. a talented martial artist/actor who's real fighting skills might've been overrated/hyped up.. I'll choose the former.

Because at least that option has some basis in reality.

 

[Lejuan]

Luvya sig work Devil

 

[Devil_666]

 

[Frank]

This is gonna piss off a lot of Bruce Lee fans but it's the truth, and for the life of me I'll never understand why his name (or people like him) are even brought up in discussions like this pertaining to "fights". Because the truth is, no one IN these discussions have ever even seen him in a real fight. And for the people who claim they have, even their accounts vary.

I know Ali could fight. I know what he accomplished as a fighter. Because I've seen it. His fights are documented. I saw him defeat every single top fighter in his division.

Bruce Lee's status as a fighter is myth. It's all word of mouth stories and depending on how close the teller is/was to Bruce you'll hear different accounts i.e.

close = Bruce Lee slaughtered his opponent
not close = Bruce Lee barely won/lost/it was a draw

So if the choice is between a guy who I know can fight, who's accomplishments I've seen vs. a talented martial artist/actor who's real fighting skills might've been overrated/hyped up.. I'll choose the former.

Because at least that option has some basis in reality.

On the seeing is believing count, Bruce Lee's take on fighting is the real winner here. His legacy has gone on to inspire MMA while boxing has been utterly eclipsed by it.

It is kinda pointless to bring up fights that will never happen, and given Lee was not interested in tournament fighting makes it even tougher. All we know is that Ali was among the most exceptional boxers of his age and that Bruce Lee was the most influential martial artist of his age. You don't get to be that influential to professional athletes if it was all a sham.

 

[Devil_666]

You don't get to be that influential to professional athletes if it was all a sham.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning him as a martial artist. I'm also not questioning his philosophy about fighting or even his influence.

What I'm questioning is his legitimacy as a fighter in a real fight.

And as it stands, it's a big question mark. So I don't know how people could be sure he'd win a fight vs. someone who's legitimacy as a fighter in real fights is proven. That's all.