Muhammad Ali vs Bruce Lee

[greatlakes6]

More likely to be able to organize a battle royal fight amongst board members to determine who is the best tough guy on a key-board...

Yep more pontificating then punches landed

You're probably right. It would be like an NBA slap fight.

 

[greatlakes6]

I would like to address a couple of points brought up: Bruce Lee had studied Wing Chun for about five years. Wing Chun has the POTENTIAL to be a devastating system but often we see Wing Chun fighters losing to MMA and Muay Thai on a regular basis, however, most of these fighters are not using WC correctly. Lee, created JKD because of the weaknesses he saw in Wing Chun, but it is likely he didn't learn the whole system. He was a kid in street gangs being taught by a former policeman. Did Ip Man teach him all of it or enough to get by. For that matter we don't know how good Ip Man truly was especially toward the end of his life and he did have an opium habit, reportedly.
Wing Chun is very good at redirecting and I have used it quite effectively against boxers. The reason most fights end up on the ground is because most people don't know how to stop them from ending up on the ground. Also Bruce Lee trained for a year privately with Gene LeBell who says he got quite proficient at them. The real issue comes down to street fight or a fight with rules. Ali was a big man and would have been able to absorb a lot of punishment. Ali was very powerful and very fast if he connected once or twice Lee would not have been able to tolerate the impact just due to size constraints. If you have ever been hit by a middle weight and a heavy weight you would understand there isn't a real comparison.

Good post, Anzik. That's partly my point, too, in that Lee's frame is not built to absorb heavy weight punches, especially bare knuckle. Ali and Frazier managed to inflict internal organ damage on one another being in the same weight class and wearing gloves. No telling what a few direct hits to Lee's midsection would do, let alone an uppercut to the jaw or headshot. If Lee got staggered for a half second, Ali would roll it up.

Although I agree with what Nam's saying in that size isn't everything, it's also the case that Lee wouldn't be going up against a slow, lumbering guy like say Andre the Giant. Ali was big, fast and a saavy fighter. A lot of the 'Lee wins' argument seems to be predicated on him never taking a hit and being able to deflect and dodge everything Ali would throw at him.

Very well stated, you guys clearly understand the overall scope of the question. Let's not forget, even if Ali were to be on the ground. He can still generate enough punching power to do some damage, he wouldn't just lay there. And for gloves, he wouldn't wear the full boxing gloves, definitely open hand, he's not stupid. As far as boxing in general, there hasn't been a true heavyweight who can compare to the talent of the 50's, 60's, and 70's, other than Tyson in his prime. But the question was about Ali, not the rest of these slugs.

 

[Tornadoflame]

Very well stated, you guys clearly understand the overall scope of the question. Let's not forget, even if Ali were to be on the ground. He can still generate enough punching power to do some damage, he wouldn't just lay there. And for gloves, he wouldn't wear the full boxing gloves, definitely open hand, he's not stupid. As far as boxing in general, there hasn't been a true heavyweight who can compare to the talent of the 50's, 60's, and 70's, other than Tyson in his prime. But the question was about Ali, not the rest of these slugs.

If I'm on the ground with someone I want them to swing because that arm is mine.

 

[azurepred]

Untrue. Have you ever stood next to one of these heavyweights? I have trained with them, their legs are like tree trunks. They have incredible muscular strength and endurance and train just as hard as MMA guys.

Now, if you want to say Bruce Lee against a middle weight, a welterweight, bantam, fly, then I agree, Lee would be victorious. Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Hilmer Kenty, Julio Cesar Chavez, no chance. Any of the heavyweights I mentioned previously would prevail.

doesn't really matter how big a guys leg is. You've obviously never been kicked in the knee or thigh before. Repeated kicks to the knee or thighs over and over again alone can beat anyone. Blood fills up quickly in those muscles.

 

[azurepred]

He was 32 when he died and that is well past the prime of most MMA fighters. Also MMA is a bad choice for street fighting. You will seldom be facing a strictly one on one challenge, you don't know what is on the ground, rocks, glass used needles, etc, and striking causing bleeding with opponents who may have HIV, hepatitis C or other blood borne diseases isn't a good idea.

You are incorrect stating MMA fighters are way past their prime at 32, most are just in their prime at that age. You don't have to even hit a person to beat them, a good MMA fighter is capable of doing so, so I don't see how MMA is a bad choice for street fighting when BJJ is the best self defense system in existence.

 

[Tornadoflame]

32 is old for most boxers. But 32 is an MMA fighter's prime.

 

[greatlakes6]

If I'm on the ground with someone I want them to swing because that arm is mine.

Not if it hits you.

 

[greatlakes6]

doesn't really matter how big a guys leg is. You've obviously never been kicked in the knee or thigh before. Repeated kicks to the knee or thighs over and over again alone can beat anyone. Blood fills up quickly in those muscles.

And you really think the guy is going to stand there and let it happen?

 

[greatlakes6]

You are incorrect stating MMA fighters are way past their prime at 32, most are just in their prime at that age. You don't have to even hit a person to beat them, a good MMA fighter is capable of doing so, so I don't see how MMA is a bad choice for street fighting when BJJ is the best self defense system in existence.

You know why 32 is their prime? Because most of these guys didn't get not it until they were a little older. They don't have the wear and tear like a boxer who has been doing this since their early teens.

 

[Unclechopchop]

Hasn't anybody earned from Couture vs. Toney???
It's seriously a no brainer.

 

[wofford29]

Size "sometimes" doesn't matter in a fight. When you're talking about two of the best at their craft it's absolutely a factor. That Couture v. Toney is about as far off a comparison as one could make. Ali is 6'3" 220 lbs. with a damn reach of 80. Lee wouldn't be able to reach him before Ali jabbed him to death. There's only so much a 135lb. body could block and absorb before it broke down. You guys are talking as if Ali wasn't fast enough or intelligent enough to defend himself.

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Size "sometimes" doesn't matter in a fight. When you're talking about two of the best at their craft it's absolutely a factor. That Couture v. Toney is about as far off a comparison as one could make. Ali is 6'3" 220 lbs. with a damn reach of 80. Lee wouldn't be able to reach him before Ali jabbed him to death. There's only so much a 135lb. body could block and absorb before it broke down. You guys are talking as if Ali wasn't fast enough or intelligent enough to defend himself.

This is the truth (even though with MMA rules I picked Bruce in the poll). Let's not forget, it was Ali who inspired Bruce Lee in his fighting style (both for movies or in real life), not the other way around.

 

[Niltusk]

This is the truth (even though with MMA rules I picked Bruce in the poll). Let's not forget, it was Ali who inspired Bruce Lee in his fighting style (both for movies or in real life), not the other way around.

Yep, there was a reason Bruce Lee admired Ali. In fact if you watch interviews with his wife or training partners, you could say he was obsessed with boxing in general and Ali in particular. Apparently his boxing film library was quite extensive.

 

[azurepred]

And you really think the guy is going to stand there and let it happen?

if the guy can't grapple, what is the guy gonna do to stop leg kicks?

You know why 32 is their prime? Because most of these guys didn't get not it until they were a little older. They don't have the wear and tear like a boxer who has been doing this since their early teens.

yea, I know why a boxer is at the end of his career at 32, cause they take so much brain damage throughout all the years.

 

[Lejuan]

if the guy can't grapple, what is the guy gonna do to stop leg kicks?

It's not so easy to get near enough and in a good enough position to deliver low kicks to an agile, well-poised boxer with a superior reach. I voted Lee, but his kicking ability wasn't a big factor in my thinking.

 

[greatlakes6]

Size "sometimes" doesn't matter in a fight. When you're talking about two of the best at their craft it's absolutely a factor. That Couture v. Toney is about as far off a comparison as one could make. Ali is 6'3" 220 lbs. with a damn reach of 80. Lee wouldn't be able to reach him before Ali jabbed him to death. There's only so much a 135lb. body could block and absorb before it broke down. You guys are talking as if Ali wasn't fast enough or intelligent enough to defend himself.

Well said, common sense always prevails.

 

[greatlakes6]

if the guy can't grapple, what is the guy gonna do to stop leg

If a guy is laying on the ground, trying to kick you, you move out of the way.

 

[Frank]

Most of a boxer's power comes from the legs and being able to put their full bodyweight into the punch. All a martial artist really has to do is take out their legs. End of story.

Lee also had some lightning quick feints he could employ to trick any of these boxers into exposing some incredibly vulnerable points on their neck and head. The kind of force Lee could put behind his hands could easily crush the trachea.

 

[shocktrooper_au]

Well said, common sense always prevails.

People are talking as though Ali was some hulk of a guy 220lb at 6:3 is pretty lean for the height.

 

[greatlakes6]

People are talking as though Ali was some hulk of a guy 220lb at 6:3 is pretty lean for the height.

The mentioning of the weight is to point out how quick he was. The 220 was more through the early 70's. He fought as high as 230. I have met him several times and I can tell you first hand, he is a big guy. That was the first thing I noticed about him.