MARVEL' S Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Spartan Rex]

Quick question...I'm not a comic nerd so may be missing something.
How can Falcon take on Super powered characters??? He is just a regular dude with wings right??

Did u not see the Sam workout montage? He is now capable of flips and bouncing the shield of wood posts. What more can a man do?
Seriously though he should’ve been dead after that fight with Walker. The shield without the serum is no bueno.

 

[jye4ever]

Quick question...I'm not a comic nerd so may be missing something.
How can Falcon take on Super powered characters??? He is just a regular dude with wings right??

It’s actually a problem that plagues all superhero movies

Look at Batman being thrown thru an entire building by Superman yet his exposed human jaw was not instantly ripped off from his face

All superhero movies are guilty of this

 

[Khev]

How can Falcon take on Super powered characters???

Super easy, barely an inconvenience!

 

[matticus]

Quick question...I'm not a comic nerd so may be missing something.
How can Falcon take on Super powered characters??? He is just a regular dude with wings right??

We all know the real reason.

 

[chrisstbh]

Quick question...I'm not a comic nerd so may be missing something.
How can Falcon take on Super powered characters??? He is just a regular dude with wings right??

Because he is a strong independant black man who don't need no serum.

 

[matticus]

Because he is a strong independant black man who don't need no white man's serum.

Fixed.

 

[Sassafras]

Did u not see the Sam workout montage? He is now capable of flips and bouncing the shield of wood posts. What more can a man do?
Seriously though he should?ve been dead after that fight with Walker. The shield without the serum is no bueno.

I will give the series credit for the fight choreography keeping it real tho -

Falcon can fight, sure, but he's using his suit/wings to compensate against super soldiers in the series, and I've got no problem with that. Having Walker (who Battlestar described as making the right decisions in a fight) target and yank Falcon's wings off was right - Walker's effectively crippled his opponent.

Dunno if the writer is actually thinking of it; but Bucky going to Wakanda to get Sam a suit is more than new wings; he's giving a non-super soldier friend an equalizing factor, 'coz pretty sure the new outfit is gonna be some vibranium-laced armor suit or whatever. So maybe it was a thing showing Bucky likes Sam more than he lets on 'coz his head is a mess e.g. he's protecting Sam the way he once protected Steve. But I don't KNOW that's what the writers were thinking. They could be thinking "let's give the Falcon a really cool black and silver suit and once again show how superior Wakanda is, in every way" even if in IW there was no air support and everyone lined up for battle the way they did in the 1700s"

I have/had a lot of interest in this series since the Winter Soldier along with Falcon and Cap are my favorite MCU characters; and think Team Cap and the writing in general suffered in IW and EG.

As a character fan, am reasonably happy. This was a new showrunner and group of writers, and u never know what ur gonna end up with. Except for the social consciousness overload and some parts that drag IMO, I'd give it a B/B+ for now. This past week's tease was BS, but nothing that Marvel hasn't pulled before (e.g. all the hype was about the fight and u THINK the last 2 episodes are gonna be roller coasters; instead I got a nice close-up of Bucky sanding a deck - reminds me I need to pick up some new tools - other than that not sure what the boat repair sequence was about...).

Hopefully the showrunners - Spellman is supposedly a comic fan - get it that the audience is expecting a big payoff, and not some weak end fight like in Iron Man 2.

 

[Spartan Rex]

Fixed.

 

[GaryPool]

Did this show get good, or die tryin'?

Only caught the first ep.

 

[The Buffinator]

Cena's an action figure come to life though. Sure Russell can act but this series desperately needs more spectacle and less memes, lol.

Exactly. Whenever I see Cena I'm reminded of the bumper sticker on the weight room door of the gym where I used to play basketball...

 

[TheDucky]

Not trying to stir anything up but can anyone tell me why Isiah tried to make his jailing and being experimented on a race thing? It makes no sense to me. Government willingly gives a black man an extremely powerful serum, a serum powerful enough to cause some real problems for the US government, but trusts him nonetheless. After disobeying direct orders, he is jailed. Then after they all die but him, then experimented on. That doesn?t scream racist to me just a tyrannical power hungry government. Are we seriously thinking that Cap or any other white guy wouldn?t have been experimented on back then if they made it back and no serum sources were available? Government used both Steve and Isiah. Only difference is Steve failed to make it back to be experimented on and Isiah made it back after defying orders. Still ****** and I feel for Isiah, but yeesh I?m with Khev, lots of attempts at white male guilt. Really annoying and tiring. Not to mention ironic considering Disney? treatment of white male characters in Star Wars.... kill em all of em and make em evil...

 

[TheDucky]

They don't cast Eva Green as Madame HYDRA/Viper. They don't cast John Cena as Walker Cap. They rushed the entire damn Walker arc so we could have 40 minutes of white guilt and boat building. Teenage Flagsmashers continue to be the worst superhero villains ever. Sam trades hits with JOHN WALKER and walks away without a scratch?

They have Zemo and Batroc, why is Enfys Nest girl in this at all?? Whatever. This whole series feels like a basketball or football game where one team runs up the score and then clears the bench to let the second, third, and fourth stringers get some time to play on the field. Glad that a lot of people seem to be enjoying this but I think I'm still good with just having the Infinity Saga and calling it a day.

As a HUUUUUGE Cena fan, I don?t think he has the acting ability that Russell brought to the role. Cena would have been great for the action scenes, but Russell really nails the more emotional/crazy scenes.

 

[matticus]

Not trying to stir anything up but can anyone tell me why Isiah tried to make his jailing and being experimented on a race thing? It makes no sense to me. Government willingly gives a black man an extremely powerful serum, a serum powerful enough to cause some real problems for the US government, but trusts him nonetheless. After disobeying direct orders, he is jailed. Then after they all die but him, then experimented on. That doesn?t scream racist to me just a tyrannical power hungry government. Are we seriously thinking that Cap or any other white guy wouldn?t have been experimented on back then if they made it back and no serum sources were available? Government used both Steve and Isiah. Only difference is Steve failed to make it back to be experimented on and Isiah made it back after defying orders. Still ****** and I feel for Isiah, but yeesh I?m with Khev, lots of attempts at white male guilt. Really annoying and tiring. Not to mention ironic considering Disney? treatment of white male characters in Star Wars.... kill em all of em and make em evil...

Worried that the mob might come for them. Feige has steered clear of this kind of stuff, which seems odd to see it now. Some of us have been saying Phase 4 is going to be this way, please don't ruin X-Men and F4 with this!

 

[darth dennis]

As a HUUUUUGE Cena fan, I don?t think he has the acting ability that Russell brought to the role. Cena would have been great for the action scenes, but Russell really nails the more emotional/crazy scenes.

Yes, have to agree that Russell really did a great job with this role. It was "I hate this guy...", then "...maybe he's ok." and then immediately back to "I REALLY hate this guy". That's solid acting and yeah, Cena definitely would've been an imposing force in the fights but I thought Russell was good enough in those as well.

 

[matticus]

Yes, have to agree that Russell really did a great job with this role. It was "I hate this guy...", then "...maybe he's ok." and then immediately back to "I REALLY hate this guy". That's solid acting and yeah, Cena definitely would've been an imposing force in the fights but I thought Russell was good enough in those as well.

I feel like the writing was just bad with his character. Besides the locker room scene which gave some insight to him, I still don't feel like we got a good grasp of him.

 

[The Buffinator]

I feel like the writing was just bad with his character. Besides the locker room scene which gave some insight to him, I still don't feel like we got a good grasp of him.

Well, we could say the same thing about Sam prior to this show. I don't think he's written poorly, but IMO there's only so much of his background they can delve into before they sidetrack the main narrative. After all, it's not his show. But it seems they have plans for the character beyond F&TWS, so I think we'll just have to bear with them. Or not - your choice.

 

[Spartan Rex]

I feel like the writing was just bad with his character. Besides the locker room scene which gave some insight to him, I still don't feel like we got a good grasp of him.

There’s that one scene with Walker and Lamar in front of the cafe in civies where they discussed taking the serum, character, and serving together.
Very intriguing but no real substance. It just brought up more questions. The writers have done real disservice to Walker in many ways and these are a few:
1) It’s mentioned that Walker has 3, THREE! Congressional Medals of Honor. Even Rambo had only 1. Those aren’t just given out like peanuts and popcorn. The incidents surrounding the awarding of that medal are investigated and witnesses interviewed and it usually involves an extreme or unusual act of bravery and or heroism while under fire. It’s so rare in its awarding...but Walker has 3. What for? What?re the details? Were they awarded for political reasons? For public optics? Lamar seemed to think he deserved them and mentioned his ability to think clearly under fire. But we don’t always see that in his screen time.
2)Was Walker psychology vetted before being awarded the mantle and shield of Captain America? It seems not. That would be a serious oversight by the powers that be. Or maybe he was and passed or maybe someone objected. Walker saw a lot of combat but yet no signs of PTSD? Even Audey Murphy had PTSD. No nightmares ala Bucky? No signs of egomaniac behavior? I wonder how well he would’ve faired under the scrutiny of Buckys psychiatrist?
3)Who the hell gave the green light to a non serum enhanced Captain America? Knowing full well he’d be pitted against super powered villains they should’ve known even the most physically fit combat vet wouldn’t last long even with the shield. He was set up for failure.
4) Both Sam and Bucky show a complete lack of respect for Walker and his non enhanced achievements on behalf of America in the initial meeting. These two combat vets and super heroes couldn’t overcome there own personal biases and negative emotions surrounding the shield and recognize another soldier and his desire for “team work”. Remember that quote from Maj. Winters in Band of Brothers? We salute and respect the rank not the man. Both Sam and Bucky blew it. Sam more so because they served in Afghanistan and lost his wingman and had those Vet meetings he led. Would he have treated Walker the same way if he came to one of those meetings in civies? Doubtful.
5)The U.S. govt really threw Walker under the bus at that hearing. Completely unjust decision. As I said they had set him up for failure not success.Dishonorable discharge and no benefits!? I doubt that would stand in the court of public opinion. The outcry from vets groups would be substantial I think as well. A cross section of America would probably agree with Walkers actions.
6) If the serum just makes you “more” of what you already are as Lamar said then what was Walker before he took the serum? The answer doesn’t seem to be a good one or it’s just bad writing that isn’t crossing the “T’s” and dotting the “I’s”.

 

[chrisstbh]

Not trying to stir anything up but can anyone tell me why Isiah tried to make his jailing and being experimented on a race thing? It makes no sense to me. Government willingly gives a black man an extremely powerful serum, a serum powerful enough to cause some real problems for the US government, but trusts him nonetheless. After disobeying direct orders, he is jailed. Then after they all die but him, then experimented on. That doesn?t scream racist to me just a tyrannical power hungry government. Are we seriously thinking that Cap or any other white guy wouldn?t have been experimented on back then if they made it back and no serum sources were available? Government used both Steve and Isiah. Only difference is Steve failed to make it back to be experimented on and Isiah made it back after defying orders. Still ****** and I feel for Isiah, but yeesh I?m with Khev, lots of attempts at white male guilt. Really annoying and tiring. Not to mention ironic considering Disney? treatment of white male characters in Star Wars.... kill em all of em and make em evil...

Huh? It was a race thing though. Isaiah did they exact same thing that Steve did. You're forgetting that Steve DID make it back the first time he went to go rescue Bucky etc. and they let him off with it. They were just going to bomb the POW camp and let all of Isaiah's friends die, because they were seen as disposable.

The race stuff is a bit OTT in this show I agree but this was definitely a race thing.

 

[The Buffinator]

There?s that one scene with Walker and Lamar in front of the cafe in civies where they discussed taking the serum, character, and serving together.
Very intriguing but no real substance. It just brought up more questions. The writers have done real disservice to Walker in many ways and these are a few:
1) It?s mentioned that Walker has 3, THREE! Congressional Medals of Honor. Even Rambo had only 1. Those aren?t just given out like peanuts and popcorn. The incidents surrounding the awarding of that medal are investigated and witnesses interviewed and it usually involves an extreme or unusual act of bravery and or heroism while under fire. It?s so rare in its awarding...but Walker has 3. What for? What?re the details? Were they awarded for political reasons? For public optics? Lamar seemed to think he deserved them and mentioned his ability to think clearly under fire. But we don?t always see that in his screen time.
2)Was Walker psychology vetted before being awarded the mantle and shield of Captain America? It seems not. That would be a serious oversight by the powers that be. Or maybe he was and passed or maybe someone objected. Walker saw a lot of combat but yet no signs of PTSD? Even Audey Murphy had PTSD. No nightmares ala Bucky? No signs of egomaniac behavior? I wonder how well he would?ve faired under the scrutiny of Buckys psychiatrist?
3)Who the hell gave the green light to a non serum enhanced Captain America? Knowing full well he?d be pitted against super powered villains they should?ve known even the most physically fit combat vet wouldn?t last long even with the shield. He was set up for failure.
4) Both Sam and Bucky show a complete lack of respect for Walker and his non enhanced achievements on behalf of America in the initial meeting. These two combat vets and super heroes couldn?t overcome there own personal biases and negative emotions surrounding the shield and recognize another soldier and his desire for ?team work?. Remember that quote from Maj. Winters in Band of Brothers? We salute and respect the rank not the man. Both Sam and Bucky blew it. Sam more so because they served in Afghanistan and lost his wingman and had those Vet meetings he led. Would he have treated Walker the same way if he came to one of those meetings in civies? Doubtful.
5)The U.S. govt really threw Walker under the bus at that hearing. Completely unjust decision. As I said they had set him up for failure not success.Dishonorable discharge and no benefits!? I doubt that would stand in the court of public opinion. The outcry from vets groups would be substantial I think as well. A cross section of America would probably agree with Walkers actions.
6) If the serum just makes you ?more? of what you already are as Lamar said then what was Walker before he took the serum? The answer doesn?t seem to be a good one or it?s just bad writing that isn?t crossing the ?T?s? and dotting the ?I?s?.

Can't argue with most of what you've said, BUT...

They gave him the mantle of Captain America because they wanted a symbol, plus I don't think they were aware of the existence of more SUPER POWERED villains out there post Endgame. Granted, a super-powered good guy could turn evil but I don't think that was really a consideration. Once it was known that the Flag Smashers were enhanced, he really shouldn't have been engaging them without considerably more backup than just Lamar. THAT was the bad writing part for me; don't tell us he always makes the right call in battle and then have him do that.

Regarding the serum, remember this wasn't the same serum that Steve took. It was based off of what they gave Isaiah, so maybe it's possible that it can sometimes lead to violent, irrational behavior? While the Flag Smashers haven't been overtly violent (save for Karli's bombing that warehouse), Isaiah got plenty mad the first time Sam & Bucky visited him - perhaps that wasn't solely because he felt he was unfairly locked up and experimented upon? After all, we did only hear HIS side of the story. So it's possible that "the serum makes you more of what you already are" line told to Steve doesn't apply here at all.

 

[SwedishHeat]

Not trying to stir anything up but can anyone tell me why Isiah tried to make his jailing and being experimented on a race thing? It makes no sense to me. Government willingly gives a black man an extremely powerful serum, a serum powerful enough to cause some real problems for the US government, but trusts him nonetheless. After disobeying direct orders, he is jailed. Then after they all die but him, then experimented on. That doesn?t scream racist to me just a tyrannical power hungry government.

Because it was a race thing. Listen to what Isaiah said happened to him, it's exactly what happened in real life, except the government was experimenting with syphilis instead of 'super soldier serum'. The government didn't pick a variety of citizens, they picked only black people.

The study initially involved 600 black men ? 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease. The study was conducted without the benefit of patients? informed consent. Researchers told the men they were being treated for ?bad blood,? a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. In truth, they did not receive the proper treatment needed to cure their illness. In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance. Although originally projected to last 6 months, the study actually went on for 40 years.

https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

Apart from that, you are missing the point of Isaiah's story, the gov't experimented on him and his fellow soldiers, without informed consent, then when his friends were captured, and the gov't was going to kill all of them, he broke them out of the POW camp, and that's why he was jailed. He 'disobeyed orders' by rescuing his friends from being killed by their own gov't, and was put in jail for it, and his identity erased. When Steve Rogers went AWOL to go rescue Bucky, they hailed him as a hero, but when Isaiah did it, they put him in jail.