HOBBIT CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[carbo-fation]

Boy, that there Wikkipedia sure is helpful:

In the fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien, the Blue Wizards (or the Ithryn Luin in Sindarin) are two mysterious Maiar of the Vala Oromë sent to the East who are commonly called Alatar and Pallando. They are only hinted at in The Lord of the Rings, where Saruman states that there are five Wizards.

For the full article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards

The Unfinished tales states the same thing in the Istari Chapter. But as you mentioned in the previous post, Pallando and Allatar were not part of the White Council and had very little dealings East of Rhun.

Has anyone read the History of the Hobbit? I bought the 70th edition of the Hobbit that contained the two volume History of the Hobbit but I haven't had time to read it yet. I am pretty certain, there is a great deal more of text and actual writings from J.R.R. Tolkien in those two volumes which would give more information about the White Council and other important events pertaining to the One Ring but not mentioned in the Hobbit.

 

[Atom Hues]

The Unfinished tales states the same thing in the Istari Chapter. But as you mentioned in the previous post, Pallando and Allatar were not part of the White Council and had very little dealings East of Rhun.

Has anyone read the History of the Hobbit? I bought the 70th edition of the Hobbit that contained the two volume History of the Hobbit but I haven't had time to read it yet. I am pretty certain, there is a great deal more of text and actual writings from J.R.R. Tolkien in those two volumes which would give more information about the White Council and other important events pertaining to the One Ring but not mentioned in the Hobbit.

Ooh, no! Now I gotta find it.... Thanks!

I bet the makers of The Hobbit will examine every durned thing Tolkien wrote on the subject as grist for the narrative mill! If Christopher Tolkien found a cocktail napkin in his dad's desk drawer that said "Hobbits love Pepperidge Farms Goldfish snacks and making fart noises with their armpits during Festivus", I'm sure THAT would be included as authentic Hobbit resource material!

 

[jungle jom]

The Hobbit needs to be split into two films because like Lord of the Rings it will be overly long and have a lot of walking in it. These characters need to walk miles and we need to see every moment of it. One can never get too much of characters walking.

 

[Atom Hues]

 

[RoboDad]

I haven't read all of the wikipedia references cited, but if some of the things posted in this thread are based on them, I would have to disagree on a couple of points.

First, the name 'The White Council' didn't refer to an event, but rather to the organization itself. The group was formed at Galadriel's summons, and they met on several occasions throughout the Third Age. The Council included the Istari (at least Saruman and Gandalf, and I think Radagast, though I can't recall whether he participated or not), as well as Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, and others of the Eldar. Whether that included Glorfindel, Thranduil or Celeborn I don't know. They first met in TA 2463, three years after Sauron re-entered Dol Guldur (Gandalf first drove him out in TA 2063, long before the Council was formed). They later met in 2851, where Saruman convinced them not to attack Dol Guldur, and then again in 2941 (at the time of The Hobbit), when they did successfully drive Sauron out, and once more in 2953 to try to learn the fate of the One Ring, where Saruman lied about it going into the Sea. So, I'm not sure what the wikipedia author means by the 'second' Council.

Second, the name 'The Wise' didn't refer to the Istari alone, at least based on what I have always understood. It was synonymous with the White Council (or at least, those who made up the Council, since usage of the name 'The Wise' predates the formal formation of the Council).

 

[Atom Hues]

I haven't read all of the wikipedia references cited, but if some of the things posted in this thread are based on them, I would have to disagree on a couple of points.

First, the name 'The White Council' didn't refer to an event, but rather to the organization itself. The group was formed at Galadriel's summons, and they met on several occasions throughout the Third Age. The Council included the Istari (at least Saruman and Gandalf, and I think Radagast, though I can't recall whether he participated or not), as well as Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, and others of the Eldar. Whether that included Glorfindel, Thranduil or Celeborn I don't know. They first met in TA 2463, three years after Sauron re-entered Dol Guldur (Gandalf first drove him out in TA 2063, long before the Council was formed). They later met in 2851, where Saruman convinced them not to attack Dol Guldur, and then again in 2941 (at the time of The Hobbit), when they did successfully drive Sauron out, and once more in 2953 to try to learn the fate of the One Ring, where Saruman lied about it going into the Sea. So, I'm not sure what the wikipedia author means by the 'second' Council.

Second, the name 'The Wise' didn't refer to the Istari alone, at least based on what I have always understood. It was synonymous with the White Council (or at least, those who made up the Council, since usage of the name 'The Wise' predates the formal formation of the Council).

The Wikkipedia says this, under the entry "The White Council":

Little is known about the First White Council, the members of which were mostly the same as the Second, but led by Gil-galad and not including the Istari. It was formed after Sauron's defeat in Eriador in 1701 S.A. Its main decision was that Eregion was to be abandoned in favour of Imladris.

Here's the URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Council

Whoever made the Wikki's White Council entry deemed the first meeting to contain enough different members to qualify the two entities as seperate, kinda like purists who say you can't call it Pink Floyd if Roger Waters ain't there.

I didn't write the entry, I juts cut & pasted it to answer someone else's curiosity & criticisms. If the entry was fallacious. then no other Tolkien scholars or fans have ever deemed it worthy of correction, seeing as how anyone can edit a Wikkipedia entry.

I personally never tried to claim that the White Council was anything other than the Justice League of Middle-Earth.

As for who actually comrpises 'The Wise', I DID put a little disclaimer at the end saying that I wasn't sure if it just referred to the Istari or it included their Elven peeps.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Interesting comments; the term White Council was not technically applied to the assembly of Gil-Galad in the sense that his forum was less official and leaned more towards an alliance than a council. The latter group, spearheaded by Elrond, was specifically named "The White Council," and included the Istari, with a limited number of High Elves, men, and Cirdan the Shipwright completing the group. So while Gil-Galad's faction could be deemed a white council, the group at the time of The Hobbit was The White Council.

As for the term The Wise, it doesn't apply to specific individuals, nor to any particular group. It is a term Tolkien, and indeed almost all fantasy/epic writers use to refer to the learning, lore, and wisdom of the world. It is more than just the people who possess it; it is the wisdom itself within the circles of the world. In using the term Tolkien very subtly yet powerfully bring to mind the fact that there are other powers beyond even that vision of the collective knowledge of Middle Earth, moving the world against the powers that would destroy it. Using the term The Wise is merely using such people as representatives of the knowledge of the ages, which is indeed great but not complete. That allusion to deeper and greater powers is one of the most beautifully profound aspects of The Lord of the Rings.

Sorry, you all knew I couldn't resist a topic as intricate as this.

 

[RoboDad]

I never meant to sound like I was questioning you, and I apologize if that's how it sounded. I just tend to look at wikipedia with a certain amount of disdain. I find it flawed to the point of near uselessness in many areas, and I assumed this to be one of them. I was previously unaware of any mention of another White Council in any of my reference materials.

However, there is a discussion I just found on another Tolkien forum that points to a footnote in Unfinished Tales (one that I had never noticed before) where a line of text from the History of Galadriel and Celeborn was changed from "the first Council" to "the first White Council". So, it appears that there was a meeting of the White Council in the Second Age, and it may well have contained the same core members from the Eldar as that of the Third Age (though no Istari, since they were not yet in Middle-earth).

 

[RoboDad]

Interesting comments; the term White Council was not technically applied to the assembly of Gil-Galad in the sense that his forum was less official and leaned more towards an alliance than a council. The latter group, spearheaded by Elrond, was specifically named "The White Council," and included the Istari, with a limited number of High Elves, men, and Cirdan the Shipwright completing the group. So while Gil-Galad's faction could be deemed a white council, the group at the time of The Hobbit was The White Council.

See my post above. We're both wrong. Footnote 10 in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn does indicate that Gil-galad's Council was indeed called the first White Council, with specific references to the Third Age Council as having adopted the same name, possibly due to containing the same core membership.

As for the term The Wise, it doesn't apply to specific individuals, nor to any particular group. It is a term Tolkien, and indeed almost all fantasy/epic writers use to refer to the learning, lore, and wisdom of the world. It is more than just the people who possess it; it is the wisdom itself within the circles of the world. In using the term Tolkien very subtly yet powerfully bring to mind the fact that there are other powers beyond even that vision of the collective knowledge of Middle Earth, moving the world against the powers that would destroy it. Using the term The Wise is merely using such people as representatives of the knowledge of the ages, which is indeed great but not complete. That allusion to deeper and greater powers is one of the most beautifully profound aspects of The Lord of the Rings.

Sorry, you all knew I couldn't resist a topic as intricate as this.

I understand your point, but there was a definite reference in the books to the "Council of the Wise" as a synonym for the White Council. Given that, I have always connected references to "The Wise" to members of the Council. Certainly, it could have had broader meaning than that, but that has always worked for me.

 

[Wetanut]

ahem....in the wikipedia research frenzy, believe my link to Thane's Book of Middle Earth might have been overlooked. I've found it and Encyclopedia of Arda to be extremely useful, and either one beats out Wikipedia -- at least on all topics Middle Earth.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Yes, that council was indeed formed in the Second Age, but did not include the Istari and had no clearly defined membership (if only because Tokien never clarified the issue). However, in the actual published works JRRT only refer to The White Council as that which was organized by the three elven-ring bearers and led by Saruman the White. Any preceeding council would simply be a step towards that finally assembled body. Gil-Galad's was a preliminary assembly; it later evolved into the Last Alliance. In any case, when Tolkien refers to The White Council in his official works he always means the Council of the Third Age.

 

[RoboDad]

ahem....in the wikipedia research frenzy, believe my link to Thane's Book of Middle Earth might have been overlooked. I've found it and Encyclopedia of Arda to be extremely useful, and either one beats out Wikipedia -- at least on all topics Middle Earth.

Encyclopedia of Arda is one of the most authoritative references I know of (and I use it A LOT), but even they don't make any mention of the Second Age White Council. Color me surprised.

And I actually did look it up at the Thain's Book, but since there were no references cited, I couldn't state definitively WHY they agreed with the wiki entry.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Having just read your reply I see you are also right; my bad. Gil-Galad did indeed for the White Council, but in the books it always refers to the latter body. And yes, it maintained the name, but it was because of the same purpose, not membership. The purpose of any White Coucil is to work against Sauron for the good of Middle Earth.

Oh how I love to discuss Tolkien!

 

[RoboDad]

Indeed! It is great fun! And just so we're on the same page, I am in complete agreement. Until today, I never even knew that the SA Council had ever been referred to as a White Council. One footnote reference is more than a bit obscure.

For my money, the TA White Council will always the The White Council.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Funny how a topic as potentially volatile as this can be dealt with so kindly and courteously in the LOTR forum, while in the Star Wars forum a discussion over an alien's nose being too big can lead to fifteen pages of hateful commentary and flaming arguments. I love this place . . .

 

[The Josh]

ahem....in the wikipedia research frenzy, believe my link to Thane's Book of Middle Earth might have been overlooked. I've found it and Encyclopedia of Arda to be extremely useful, and either one beats out Wikipedia -- at least on all topics Middle Earth.

Thane's book is a great site. Its one I rely quite heavily on when I need to look up something ME as is the case with Arda.

 

[p!tu]

Funny how a topic as potentially volatile as this can be dealt with so kindly and courteously in the LOTR forum, while in the Star Wars forum a discussion over an alien's nose being too big can lead to fifteen pages of hateful commentary and flaming arguments. I love this place . . .

Finally something i understand!!! i feel like such a poser! since i love LOTR but never read any of the books! and had no idea about THE HOBBIT! and i see ADAM so pupmed and knowledgeable about it and you guys as well!! i suck!

 

[Atom Hues]

Interesting comments; the term White Council was not technically applied to the assembly of Gil-Galad in the sense that his forum was less official and leaned more towards an alliance than a council. The latter group, spearheaded by Elrond, was specifically named "The White Council," and included the Istari, with a limited number of High Elves, men, and Cirdan the Shipwright completing the group. So while Gil-Galad's faction could be deemed a white council, the group at the time of The Hobbit was The White Council.

As for the term The Wise, it doesn't apply to specific individuals, nor to any particular group. It is a term Tolkien, and indeed almost all fantasy/epic writers use to refer to the learning, lore, and wisdom of the world. It is more than just the people who possess it; it is the wisdom itself within the circles of the world. In using the term Tolkien very subtly yet powerfully bring to mind the fact that there are other powers beyond even that vision of the collective knowledge of Middle Earth, moving the world against the powers that would destroy it. Using the term The Wise is merely using such people as representatives of the knowledge of the ages, which is indeed great but not complete. That allusion to deeper and greater powers is one of the most beautifully profound aspects of The Lord of the Rings.

Sorry, you all knew I couldn't resist a topic as intricate as this.

Thanks for helping me out. [no sarcasm intended]

I DO think that when Tolkien is talking about The Wise, he actually is referring to a specific group of Middle-Earth smarty-pants, specifically the Istari and the top Eldar who own real estate east of the Undying Lands.

In the film, when Cate Blanchett says "Even the wise do not know....", the implication is such that she's talking about "smart Middle-Earthers in general" and not anyone in particular.

I really do think that in the books, however, The Wise or the Council of the Wise is a reference to actual cats like Gandalf, Elrond, and such.

I COULD BE WRONG. I am, of course, the bounder & cad who had the mendacity to invoke the necronomicon of lies, the Wikipedia, while trying to enlighten The (un)Wise. I will diminish and go into the West, and remain a putz.

 

[Captain Faramir]

No you don't, p!tu. You're just entering a whole new world that's incredibly vast and intricate; of course it's overwhelming--heck, even I feel overwhelmed at times, and I've been studying it for over a decade! But it's well worth it; it's not just a shallow flik that you enjoy and leave at the door. It's something that affects your perspective and understanding. It's wonderful.

Now get reading!

 

[The Josh]

No you don't, p!tu. You're just entering a whole new world that's incredibly vast and intricate; of course it's overwhelming--heck, even I feel overwhelmed at times, and I've been studying it for over a decade! But it's well worth it; it's not just a shallow flik that you enjoy and leave at the door. It's something that affects your perspective and understanding. It's wonderful.

Now get reading!

That's the crazy thing about LOTR is that even though you like me have been into it for that long now we're only just touching the tip of the iceberg.