That may be true but no one will remember that in 50 years and he will just be another great player in history.
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That may be true but no one will remember that in 50 years and he will just be another great player in history.
My main point is Jordan is GOAT and it would take a Herculean effort from Lebron to ever surpass him...so maybe a small comparison but I'm not seriously comparing them until Lebron wins 4 more titlesOh and while it is impressive that Lebron is now in his 6th consecutive finals, it's getting to the point where the more he goes to without winning, the worse it seems to get for him.
I know exactly what you meant and I agree with everything that you are saying. My post was only meant to try and reinforce the subject matter when it came to LeBron and MJ.
I honestly think if LeBron wants to win more titles, he's going to have to bail on Cleveland again.
he said it himself when he first got there, he didn't expect them to win anything right away. He would have never gone back there if his only goal was to win titles. One is all he needs in Cle. I don't see him leaving, but I'm sure he will poke the GM for changes. I'm not even sure if Lue is the answer for their coaching needs.
Shawpaw
Super Freak
I'm guessing KD stays in OKC. Thunder are still pretty good next year. May upgrade a little but will still contend. Plus, winning 3 titles in a row is super hard. GS may not win next year
Jerry West style.....
It's about the hate. Part of the problem is owned by James. He is one of the most dominant players in this generation yet he chose not to hook up with another dominant player to secure his legacy....arrogance, perhaps but that falls squarely on him.
Beyond Duncan, I find no one on everyone's list who didn't have another all time great on their roster (in their prime) to help win multiple titles. Jordan (Pippen / Rodman), Magic (Kareem / Worthy), Kobe (Shaq), Bird (McHale)...when the pairs were split the nbr of championships won by the "greatest" went down drastically. I doubt anyone can claim Wade (close), Bosh, Love or Irving can be compared to any of the legends mentioned in their prime. That piece is owned by Lebron.......did he hook up with talented players, yes. Did he hook up with players who may be considered top 5 or even 10 all time at their position, no. That part of his legacy, he owns and the consequences from those choices.
Much as I dislike Green, I did respect his comments last night when asked about being the greatest team. He showed intelligence by saying it's purely a subjective conversation that'll never be proven because they'll never play the Lakers or Bulls. Kudos for intelligence tho still classless kicking people in the nuts.
That said, I haven't given up hope but it sure looks dim for believeland...
Out of your list above, I think Kobe deserves a little more credit. Sure, he won 3 rings with Shaq. However, he won 2 more with Gasol at his side. That's no small feat.
DinoDB1975
Super Freak
Sorry in advance for the long post.
I've stated it numerous times that I like Lebron James as a player, and I would like to see him succeed. I've never said he is the greatest player in NBA history, though, but I think he gets more crap than any other player, some of his own doing to be honest. But, I'll throw in one last argument to "defend" Lebron.
The list of NBA champions since 2000 are as follows (in all honestly, I chose 2000 arbitrarily as a cut off point for the "modern" NBA era...if I'm wrong or missed anything, by all means correct me):
2000, 2001, 2002, Los Angeles Lakers (Coach Phil Jackson)
2003 San Antonio Spurs (Coach Greg Popovich)
2004 Detroit Pistons (Coach Larry Brown)
2005 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2006 Miami Heat (Coach Pat Riley)
2007 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2008 Boston Celtics (Coach Doc Rivers)
2009, 2010 LA Lakers (Phil Jackson)
2011 Dallas Mavericks (Coach Rick Carlisle)
2012 Miami Heat (Coach Erik Spoelstra)
2013 Miami Heat (Spoelstra)
2014 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2015 GS Warriors (Coach Steve Kerr)
So in the last 15 years, only 7 NBA franchises have won championships (Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Celtics, Mavs, and Warriors). Of those seven franchises, four have HOF or soon to be HOF coaches: Phil Jackson with Lakers, Popovich with the Spurs, Larry Brown with the Pistons, and Pat Riley with the 2006 Heat - with the caveat that he took over for Stan Van Gundy late in the season due to health reason *ahem* (Gregg Popovich is the only one of those four who is not currently in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, but with five championships, I daresay he's a pretty good bet to make it in eventually.)
Then you have one very good coach (Rick Carlisle) who, while may not make the HOF, is generally considered among NBA players AND coaches as a top coach.
The other two are Erik Spoelstra and Steve Kerr, who are good coaches in their own right, but it could also be argued that they won championships based on the talent of their respective teams.
So when does coaching enter in the equation? Now, just to be explicit, and to stave off any possible misunderstanding, BY NO MEANS am I arguing that Lebron's Finals records is a product of strictly coaching. But it is a point to consider. The 2004 Pistons defeated a superior Lakers team, and you could arguably state that the 2011 Mavs beat a superior Heat team as well. Lebron James' coaches in the NBA thus far: Paul Silas, Brendan Malone, Mike Brown, Erik Spoelstra, David Blatt, and Tyron Lue. He's faced Popovich three times (1-2), Carlisle (0-1), Scotty Brooks (1-0), and Steve Kerr (0-1, looking at 0-2).
Just a point to consider.
EDIT: Somehow I forgot about Doc Rivers when I was typing (happens when you type too much). I would rank him slightly behind Carlisle, but above Spoelstra and Kerr.
I've stated it numerous times that I like Lebron James as a player, and I would like to see him succeed. I've never said he is the greatest player in NBA history, though, but I think he gets more crap than any other player, some of his own doing to be honest. But, I'll throw in one last argument to "defend" Lebron.
The list of NBA champions since 2000 are as follows (in all honestly, I chose 2000 arbitrarily as a cut off point for the "modern" NBA era...if I'm wrong or missed anything, by all means correct me):
2000, 2001, 2002, Los Angeles Lakers (Coach Phil Jackson)
2003 San Antonio Spurs (Coach Greg Popovich)
2004 Detroit Pistons (Coach Larry Brown)
2005 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2006 Miami Heat (Coach Pat Riley)
2007 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2008 Boston Celtics (Coach Doc Rivers)
2009, 2010 LA Lakers (Phil Jackson)
2011 Dallas Mavericks (Coach Rick Carlisle)
2012 Miami Heat (Coach Erik Spoelstra)
2013 Miami Heat (Spoelstra)
2014 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2015 GS Warriors (Coach Steve Kerr)
So in the last 15 years, only 7 NBA franchises have won championships (Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Celtics, Mavs, and Warriors). Of those seven franchises, four have HOF or soon to be HOF coaches: Phil Jackson with Lakers, Popovich with the Spurs, Larry Brown with the Pistons, and Pat Riley with the 2006 Heat - with the caveat that he took over for Stan Van Gundy late in the season due to health reason *ahem* (Gregg Popovich is the only one of those four who is not currently in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, but with five championships, I daresay he's a pretty good bet to make it in eventually.)
Then you have one very good coach (Rick Carlisle) who, while may not make the HOF, is generally considered among NBA players AND coaches as a top coach.
The other two are Erik Spoelstra and Steve Kerr, who are good coaches in their own right, but it could also be argued that they won championships based on the talent of their respective teams.
So when does coaching enter in the equation? Now, just to be explicit, and to stave off any possible misunderstanding, BY NO MEANS am I arguing that Lebron's Finals records is a product of strictly coaching. But it is a point to consider. The 2004 Pistons defeated a superior Lakers team, and you could arguably state that the 2011 Mavs beat a superior Heat team as well. Lebron James' coaches in the NBA thus far: Paul Silas, Brendan Malone, Mike Brown, Erik Spoelstra, David Blatt, and Tyron Lue. He's faced Popovich three times (1-2), Carlisle (0-1), Scotty Brooks (1-0), and Steve Kerr (0-1, looking at 0-2).
Just a point to consider.
EDIT: Somehow I forgot about Doc Rivers when I was typing (happens when you type too much). I would rank him slightly behind Carlisle, but above Spoelstra and Kerr.
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DinoDB1975
Super Freak
My long @ss post took a while to type, so I didn't see the "latest" posts from shawpaw, Darkseed, and filip629.
Gasol was a pretty good player. Not top five all time at his position, but still pretty good. Add Phil Jackson as well, and that LA Lakers team was pretty stacked.
Hate the what if game, because we've all agreed that some "luck" is involved when it comes to injuries, but LA faced Orlando when KG was out for the playoffs, then repeated in 7 when Kendrick Perkins got hurt in game 6.
Not trying to throw shade at the Lakers or their fans; merely bringing up a talking point.
I wasn't discounting anyone's achievements, if it was easy more folks would have multiple titles. Simply stating you need the make up to do it doesn't appear Lebron has good insights to what is needed to make it happen...that is on him
I don't think Green was trying to kick anyone in the nuts intentionally, but Steven Adams was playing him tough & it happened twice in a 7 game series (2nd time was a knee)- So I understand why people think he did it on purpose. On the flipside, Andre Iguodala has been hit in the nuts by cavs players 2 games in a row (2 for 2), once by Lebron (elbow shot to the nuts) & the other time by Dellavedova (slapped in the ****). Iggy's defense on James has been stellar (when he isn’t in the game Lebron scores all his points) and is probably frustrating him much like Adams did to Green. If your going to questions Greens motives don’t you have to question the intentions of the Cav’s players as well (especially with them getting blown out).
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I think so too. I think Durant knows now that he has a coach that can get them there just a hair short, literally one game short of the finals, not taking anything away from what Scott Brooks did for the franchise. but KD needs a couple more weapons besides Westbrook.
Next season will be special for OKC if Durant stays with the Thunder.
I guess you must have missed the whole "still doesn't change the overwhelming fact that Jordan is GOAT" sentence in his post. Or his "If LeBron wins 4 more titles he can claim that" sentence. Looks like a comparison to me.
My god, give it up with Jordan. Now saying someone could pass him (which LeBron could pass him) is bad?
As far as the Cavs... series isn't over. Warriors are so arrogant I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose these next two. Nonetheless, that was one of the worst 15 minute stretches I have ever seen. Cavs completely gave up at the end of the third. I really thought they would rise to the occasion and win game 2. Lue isn't a great coach, Irving didn't show up. As I said before, Cavs need to reshuffle the starting lineup somehow. JR Smith and Iman have done nothing in my eyes. Irving played terrible these last two games, Love was hurt, an old Jefferson was the second best player on the floor.
It comes down to LeBron and how he screwed this team. He gives Tristan a max, fires Blatt, and trades Wiggins. Just think of the cap space the Cavs would have if they didn't sign Love or Tristan.... they could have had a great lineup
PG Irving
SG Wiggins
SF LeBron
PF LaMarcus Aldridge?
C DeAndre Jordan?
Of course this is speculation, but that lineup looks a lot better than the one they have right now.
I don't have cable at home (or really time there to watch anything during the days, anyway), but just caught First Take during lunch, with Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith. And Bayless was defending Lebron up and down. This is quite a change of pace from years back, when he was constantly running him down, calling Lebron "Lebrick." Credit to Bayless for being open to changing his opinions, even if his opinions are wrong.
My god, give it up with Jordan. Now saying someone could pass him (which LeBron could pass him) is bad?
I was having a basketball discussion with a fellow forum member (which didn't involve you if I remember correctly). If you don't like it, feel free not to read my posts or put me on ignore if that helps. I'll say what I want, and what I think, whenever and with whomever I see fit. Read my posts or don't. Makes no difference to me.
As for LeBron passing the GOAT. LeBron fans can say whatever they want. Numbers don't lie and so far all of them favor MJ by a pretty wide margin. Please be sure to let me know when that changes though. I won't be holding my breath. Enjoy the rest of the Finals.
Coaching does play a part absolutely. One of my knocks on Lebron currently is I feel he is getting to the point where he is somewhat "uncoachable." He gets so much freedom from coaches, GMs, team presidents, that I believe he feels he knows what's best at all times. You would need like Phil or Pop to get his attention.
Dino, that was a very well thought out post. Dealing with that much info...it's not a crime to miss some small details. It's no big deal.
As for LeBron, even though I'm not a fan, I can't deny his special athleticism or his basketball ability. When it's all said and done, I have no doubt LeBron will be in the HOF. Judging him against today's players is difficult much less against players from other eras. As you said, coaches, rosters, and rules changes are only some of the challenges in trying to compare players from any era. So, this is what I do.
Let's put LeBron on the 2 most recent dynasties of the last 2 generations. One I consider the last of the old school teams and one the start of the modern era. The Bulls won six titles and the Lakers 5. Let's put LeBron on any of THOSE 2 teams but take away those 2 teams star players. So, replace MJ with Bron and Kobe with Bron. For the sake of discussion, LeBron is the leader of those 2 dynasties. Here's my question...do you think the Bulls would still win 6 rings and the Lakers 5 with LeBron as their star and leader? After I took awhile to let that question simmer, my answer is I think not. Sure, he's more than capable of winning a few rings but I see one glaring difference in LeBron's game when compared with the 2 other players I mentioned. When the stakes are at the highest and all the chips are on the table, they had an absolute maniacal drive to their games. They won titles because of their indomitable will to win. They consistently did and sacrificed EVERYTHING they had in order to win games. Regular season games, playoff games, and especially Finals games. That is something I see lacking when I watch LeBron play. Call it killer instinct or being able to rise to the occasion. I don't see it in LeBron. That is what I truly feel is the dividing line between LeBron and other Legends of the game. That constant maniacal drive, that consistent indomitable will...it isn't inherent in LeBron's game when I watch him play and it was evident to me when I watched players like MJ, Kobe, and Magic play (just to mention a few). I don't see that changing anytime soon.
that is surprising. Skip has always been the first to bash him.
Don't take wwejedi serious, no one else does. He's the forum jester..
I don't. He's just young and doesn't know any better. That's not meant as an insult, he just literally wasn't old enough to watch what many consider to be the greatest era of basketball. Seeing YouTube clips, reading about the games on the net, or just looking up stats will NEVER be the same as watching those games or those players live.
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