Big Chief Studios BBC Sherlock

[JonWes]

Surely at 1000-2000 units they are making MUCH less than these than the typical Hot Toys figure, right? I always assumed the lower production runs were the reason as that always drives prices up.

 

[siquisiri]

Hmmm....I Didn't know their sets were so limited.

 

[Mau]

Many of us have been comparing these figs to HT because of the comparable price points. For the same price, we had expected the same quality. But, it is a yoing company with lots of trial and error to do before they find their feet and, without the sort of honest feedback that people are prepared to dish out on here, how are they going to know what their customers think and where things could improve?

Yes, I had assumed it was an economy of scale raising the price. But I wouldn't call it "limited". I assume the small runs are because they are being cautious. Why churn out 3000 figures when only half of those will sell? Again, as they get the feel of their customers' needs, this will hopefully change.

 

[DGTWoodward]

Even the guys at BCS themselves said that they know that they are not at HT standard just yet, back in he summer.

Though each person's idea of what 'value' represents is different, and if we use BCS's own opinion as a base, my personal opinion is that they have entered the market at roughly the level of SSC's current efforts. But that going by the promo pix, the #10 is an improvement over the #11.

And hopefully, that will continue with each new figure that comes along.

When it does actually come to the time to really produce these as ready to sell figures, the degree of improvement on paints may be considerable.

Personally, I like having been here at the start of a very promising company, producing a decent product in a horribly cut-throat market. They have started off brilliantly and I am eager to see the sharp improvement of their learning curve.

PS: Sorry Cap:B, I had to go with Mau's half eaten crumpet with jam.

 

[Mau]

And, being mildly patriotic, it is nice to see a UK company producing merchandise from UK programmes.

PS: Sorry Cap:B, I had to go with Mau's half eaten crumpet with jam.

I will PM you my address so you can send me that HT Hellboy MIB that I was trading that crumpet for.

 

[batfan08]

Damn, now, I don't know if I want to watch this show (I've tried a few times before, but something always comes up). I've always loved Holmes as a character and these look too good already. I'm afraid that, if I finally sit down and watch them, it will be the killing stroke to my wallet.

 

[siquisiri]

watch it. cool modernization of holmes

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I too have figures that look worse than Doc 11, but they were in the $40-$90 range, not $250+.

It's obvious BCS cares about their product and wants to put the best figure out there as evidenced by them hiring Trevor for the sculpt. Yes, their edition sizes are low, which would mean their per-figure price is high. So I would hope that they either be more demanding of their manufacturers and let them know that they insist on a better end product, or raise their edition sizes so the figures come in at below $200.

At this point, it's hard enough for me to justify buying $200+ figures from HT, most of which are damn near perfect. It's not even a debate if the manufacturing and painting quality are in the $100 range and they're charging $265.

I really love the Sherlock TV show, and I hope BCS can improve their final product so I can feel like I'm getting my money's worth. I'd really love to get the figure, but I simply couldn't if it looks like Doc 11.

 

[Captain Britain]

I too have figures that look worse than Doc 11, but they were in the $40-$90 range, not $250+.

It's obvious BCS cares about their product and wants to put the best figure out there as evidenced by them hiring Trevor for the sculpt. Yes, their edition sizes are low, which would mean their per-figure price is high. So I would hope that they either be more demanding of their manufacturers and let them know that they insist on a better end product, or raise their edition sizes so the figures come in at below $200.

At this point, it's hard enough for me to justify buying $200+ figures from HT, most of which are damn near perfect. It's not even a debate if the manufacturing and painting quality are in the $100 range and they're charging $265.

I really love the Sherlock TV show, and I hope BCS can improve their final product so I can feel like I'm getting my money's worth. I'd really love to get the figure, but I simply couldn't if it looks like Doc 11.

I'll be getting Sherlock no matter what - but I also have to say...

 

[Mau]

For me, who buys very few figures, I HAD to have 11, but I will only buy Sherlock (and Watson) if the price is right and there has been an improvement on the paint and tailoring. I almost wish they would postpone these until Amy and 4 have come out, to give themselves a chance to tweak production and produce the kind of quality that they are obviously aiming for, but haven't quite reached yet.

And I didn't see a huge amount of improvement from 11 to 10. The paintwork still looks pretty cartoonish and the tailoring is slightly off. And it appears that it wasn't for want of trying on their part as the release was postponed whilst they tampered with something they weren't satisfied with.

Time will tell.

 

[JonWes]

I just reject the notion that just because it doesn't look exactly like a Hot Toys figure it's somehow automatically inferior, as though the Hot Toys level of realism is the end all and be all of quality for a 12'' figures.

Don't get me wrong, Hot Toys have an amazing level of realism and detail and they got me into collecting. Now, when I look at the sculpt under one of the first HT's I got (The Iron Man Mark I) and compare it to what BCS is doing, I don't think they are too far off, and that was a relatively short period ago. I do think BCS should always be striving for improvement.

I guess... and this is just me, personally... when I look at my 11 figure next to my Hot Toys figure, I like them both equally. If you post close-up pictures side by side, the 11 figure doesn't look as good. But, honestly, unless you have some macro-zoom eye you're not generally viewing your figures this way. So, for me, that was the real test for these figures. When he was in-hand and on my shelf, did I enjoy him and did I regret getting him for $170? The answer, for me, was that I did enjoy him and did not regret getting him.

I realize with 10 it's a different kettle of fish and he's a higher price. I'm hoping that's just a move to get a cash infusion for BCS and not a standard practice. I mean, I'm hoping the standard for their figures won't be $230 plus who knows how much for shipping to the US. Because that would probably not work out well for them.

As for "demanding their manufacturers get better" or "raising edition sizes" you start running into the wall of the reality of producing these kinds of things. It's actually not that easy to find factories willing to run small runs of ANYTHING. Let alone something that requires a fair amount of skill to accomplish like hand-painting an action figure head. Hot Toys can probably get away with what it does by the sheer volume of business it does. Even if a single figure doesn't have a huge production run, they produce a LOT of product, which gives you more bargaining power. And you can't just raise an edition size! You don't want to overproduce and be stuck with product. And right now it's looking like 2000 might be just about the right size for Doctor Who product, at least. Not sure how that will translate for Sherlock.

I realize at a certain level customers are always going to think "I want this at the lowest price possible and of the highest quality! Just like business X can do!" But there are a lot of factors that allow a company like Hot Toys to do what they do that can't always be replicated by a start up company. So I think a LITTLE leeway is called for. That being said, I don't think asking for a higher quality product is bad. I just think rejecting their product as somehow "inferior" is unfair too.

 

[DGTWoodward]

I just reject the notion that just because it doesn't look exactly like a Hot Toys figure it's somehow automatically inferior, as though the Hot Toys level of realism is the end all and be all of quality for a 12'' figures.

Don't get me wrong, Hot Toys have an amazing level of realism and detail and they got me into collecting. Now, when I look at the sculpt under one of the first HT's I got (The Iron Man Mark I) and compare it to what BCS is doing, I don't think they are too far off, and that was a relatively short period ago. I do think BCS should always be striving for improvement.

I guess... and this is just me, personally... when I look at my 11 figure next to my Hot Toys figure, I like them both equally. If you post close-up pictures side by side, the 11 figure doesn't look as good. But, honestly, unless you have some macro-zoom eye you're not generally viewing your figures this way. So, for me, that was the real test for these figures. When he was in-hand and on my shelf, did I enjoy him and did I regret getting him for $170? The answer, for me, was that I did enjoy him and did not regret getting him.

I realize with 10 it's a different kettle of fish and he's a higher price. I'm hoping that's just a move to get a cash infusion for BCS and not a standard practice. I mean, I'm hoping the standard for their figures won't be $230 plus who knows how much for shipping to the US. Because that would probably not work out well for them.

As for "demanding their manufacturers get better" or "raising edition sizes" you start running into the wall of the reality of producing these kinds of things. It's actually not that easy to find factories willing to run small runs of ANYTHING. Let alone something that requires a fair amount of skill to accomplish like hand-painting an action figure head. Hot Toys can probably get away with what it does by the sheer volume of business it does. Even if a single figure doesn't have a huge production run, they produce a LOT of product, which gives you more bargaining power. And you can't just raise an edition size! You don't want to overproduce and be stuck with product. And right now it's looking like 2000 might be just about the right size for Doctor Who product, at least. Not sure how that will translate for Sherlock.

I realize at a certain level customers are always going to think "I want this at the lowest price possible and of the highest quality! Just like business X can do!" But there are a lot of factors that allow a company like Hot Toys to do what they do that can't always be replicated by a start up company. So I think a LITTLE leeway is called for. That being said, I don't think asking for a higher quality product is bad. I just think rejecting their product as somehow "inferior" is unfair too.

I absolutely 100% agree with everything you have just said, hence my...

Though each person's idea of what 'value' represents is different...

...but you did it so much better than me!

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I just reject the notion that just because it doesn't look exactly like a Hot Toys figure it's somehow automatically inferior, as though the Hot Toys level of realism is the end all and be all of quality for a 12'' figures.

Don't get me wrong, Hot Toys have an amazing level of realism and detail and they got me into collecting. Now, when I look at the sculpt under one of the first HT's I got (The Iron Man Mark I) and compare it to what BCS is doing, I don't think they are too far off, and that was a relatively short period ago. I do think BCS should always be striving for improvement.

I guess... and this is just me, personally... when I look at my 11 figure next to my Hot Toys figure, I like them both equally. If you post close-up pictures side by side, the 11 figure doesn't look as good. But, honestly, unless you have some macro-zoom eye you're not generally viewing your figures this way. So, for me, that was the real test for these figures. When he was in-hand and on my shelf, did I enjoy him and did I regret getting him for $170? The answer, for me, was that I did enjoy him and did not regret getting him.

I realize with 10 it's a different kettle of fish and he's a higher price. I'm hoping that's just a move to get a cash infusion for BCS and not a standard practice. I mean, I'm hoping the standard for their figures won't be $230 plus who knows how much for shipping to the US. Because that would probably not work out well for them.

As for "demanding their manufacturers get better" or "raising edition sizes" you start running into the wall of the reality of producing these kinds of things. It's actually not that easy to find factories willing to run small runs of ANYTHING. Let alone something that requires a fair amount of skill to accomplish like hand-painting an action figure head. Hot Toys can probably get away with what it does by the sheer volume of business it does. Even if a single figure doesn't have a huge production run, they produce a LOT of product, which gives you more bargaining power. And you can't just raise an edition size! You don't want to overproduce and be stuck with product. And right now it's looking like 2000 might be just about the right size for Doctor Who product, at least. Not sure how that will translate for Sherlock.

I realize at a certain level customers are always going to think "I want this at the lowest price possible and of the highest quality! Just like business X can do!" But there are a lot of factors that allow a company like Hot Toys to do what they do that can't always be replicated by a start up company. So I think a LITTLE leeway is called for. That being said, I don't think asking for a higher quality product is bad. I just think rejecting their product as somehow "inferior" is unfair too.

The reality is that HT is the best in the business at this point, and IS what other companies are or should be striving towards. It's not like BCS is trying to do something different and we're all comparing apples to oranges. We are indeed comparing apples to apples.

There are several companies out there producing 1/6 figures at different levels of quality. You have HT at the top, followed by EB, then Sideshow, all in the $100-$300 range. And then you have companies like Go Hero, Triad Toys, TTL, Brothers Production, etc., who are creating licensed and bootleg figures in the $75-$150 range. This is where I would place BCS in terms of quality. And based on that, their pricepoint should be in that same place. Until they can produce figures in the Sideshow through HT quality, they should not be charging those prices. I am willing to give them a little leeway since the lower end companies don't have to pay licensing costs since they're doing bootleg and original properties. But they are putting themselves in the line of fire if they are pricing their figures as high as they are. If you're asking $265 for a figure, it has to be as good as other companies who charge the same.

Imagine if Hyundai was charging BMW prices with their exact current product. That would never work.

But like I said before, I can see BCS really cares and is truly trying to put out the best product they can. And I commend them for that and for going after these licenses other companies are not touching. I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to demand the same level of craftsmanship from their factory workers that HT and EB have, since they are probably paying those factory workers comparable wages. If BCS is paying those factory workers less than what HT factory workers get, therefore getting a lesser end product in terms of soft casts and primitive paint apps, then the consumer should be getting charged less overall for the final product.

And you are absolutely right--I have no idea how difficult it is to get a factory in China to produce a quality product, especially at a smaller quantity. But I do think raising the edition runs to lower the cost will result in more sales. Right now, it's a big commitment to spend $200+ on a figure, and most people have to be absolutely sure they want it before they pull the trigger. But if the price was at around $125, you would have a lot more people buying these figures for Doctor Who on a whim. Like I said before, if Holmes and Watson came in at $300 for the pair, I would buy they without batting an eye--even at the Doctor 11 level of quality. I'm sure most here feel the same.

Regardless, we're all after the same thing: a great Sherlock figure. BCS had the guts to step up to the plate and we're all hoping for a home run. You did point out that Doc 11 was only $170, which seems fair for the end product--maybe ever so slightly high. So it will really come down to how much better Doc 10 comes out to see if they are charging a fair price for their figures. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

 

[Mau]

Those of us who ordered via the website (or who live in the UK, basically) paid $235 for 11. Not quite such a good deal.

I second what you said. It is tough, but it is what many of us are thinking. They will achieve the level of quality they are aiming for, I don't doubt it, but it is what the price will be whilst they are working towards figures that look as though they are worth what we have been paying to date. Having said that, they have pretty much sold out 10 and 11, I believe, so there is no real incentive for them to lower the price on runs this size.

 

[siquisiri]

Ht and eb have set THE standard in the 1/6 world and its hard to ignore comparrisons to them. While i agree that the price is probably set higher due to edition size and licensing fees from looking at other of the dr.who pics, the quality of the paint apps and clothing just isnt there. If the price is right, ill bite, if not, oh well.....

 

[Captain Britain]

Great discussion, all I would add is that I don't mind the prices they are asking, because no one else would be making Who figures of this quality, even if it's not quite HT quality; however, I do hope the paint jobs on all future figures are brilliant and avoid the grey wash problem which affected some 11 heads. I can pay what they're asking, but for that I want a figure woth no problems, though to gve them their due, they are good at sorting out problems.

 

[bigchiefstudios]

I have no idea how difficult it is to get a factory in China to produce a quality product, especially at a smaller quantity. But I do think raising the edition runs to lower the cost will result in more sales.

Sorry to say, but you could not be more wrong.

Putting aside which character it is for a moment, take a close look at any of the latest crop of 1:6 scale figures from either Hot Toys, Enterbay, Sideshow, or even our own Eleventh Doctor.

Remove the costume and study the detail and the stitching. Take a close look at the head, the accessories and other included items. The amount of hand work that goes into each figure is substantial and clearly far more than many of you realise.

Did you know that our male body alone has over 100 individual pieces that require assembly and this does not include the screws that hold it together? That’s basically an Ikea cupboard in miniature that needs putting together for each and every figure.

Hand assembling the body, trimming and painting the head and accessories, sewing the costume together, assembling the complete figure and packing all of the related parts. All this takes considerable effort and countless man hours. Does this process gets any quicker the more the workers do? Possibly fractionally, as they will possibly get quicker with each one that they complete. But seriously do you really think that the process can be sped up to the point where the cost per piece can be reduced significantly enough to warrant a price reduction? Whether a manufacturer orders 1000 or 5000 pieces, these are largely hand-assembled and finished items. Sure the price for the injection moulded plastic parts will see a slight cost reduction in greater order volumes, but again this does not make that much of a difference to the final selling price.

On top of this there have been any number of cost increases from China and why shouldn't they want to be paid fairly right? Who pays for these cost increases? The manufacturer obviously, who in turn passes this on to the end customer to recoup their outlay.

Finally with the downturn at retail, both distributors and retailers are seeking much higher levels of discount. In part to cover their overheads and of course to drive competitive sales. On face value it may seem like a buyer’s market and a great deal when you bag a particular collectable $30-$50 off the selling price. In the long run however, all this serves to do is actually devalue that collectable. Retailers offer the product at discount to get the sale and the manufacturer is squeezed for the lowest price to achieve this. The frustrating thing is if everyone maintained the recommended selling price, then everyone would have a fair playing field and make the same amount of money.

Customers’ expectation have grown exponentially. They demand high quality, yet they only want to pay the same as they did for a figure back in 2002. This is simply no longer achievable I am afraid.

We are aiming to improve upon our first release with our other figures in the line, but the cost to manufacture 1:6 scale figures is high, if you want the quality. We read comments from so many collectors complaining of the recent price increases from Hot Toys and to be honest, we cannot work out how they do what they do, for the prices they are asking anyway. They are the benchmark and their product excels. We would have a very hard time trying to match them at their price point, but we are working hard to get as close as we possibly can without breaking ours’ and our customers’ wallets.

Question is do you want manufacturers such as ourselves to keep going? Do you want us to continue making the products that you crave?

Thanks for reading BCS

 

[SwedishHeat]

Customers’ expectation have grown exponentially. They demand high quality, yet they only want to pay the same as they did for a figure back in 2002.

Biggest problem facing manufacturers right now.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I stand corrected.

My apologies if I offended or insulted you guys. It certainly was not my intention.

Thanks for coming in here and responding to our concerns. It's extremely helpful for us to be let in to the behind the scenes stuff that you guys have to deal with to get us the stuff we collect. You have to see it from our point of view as well. All we see are prices continuing to skyrocket without any explanation. That's why it's so great when someone comes in and actually addresses those concerns head on.

So thanks again guys. I am definitely interested in Sherlock and hope you guys will deliver a stellar figure!

 

[JonWes]

Yes, thanks BCS, always nice to get a peek behind the curtain.

Back to the figures themselves and the accessories - I like a lot of the ideas here. Many of which I was thinking of too. To me, I'd really like:

Sherlock - cellphone (I prefer the iPhone4, to be honest,) laptop, skull, violin and bow, and some nicotine patches you can apply yourself would be fun.

Watson - cane, gun and laptop were all I could think of. Maybe a flashlight?

After that it gets pretty episode specific like a pink cellphone or something. I guess items like a microscope could be cool, but I think the above things are the only ones that feel essential. It'd be fun to get an alternate head of Sherlock with his deerstalker on some day.