The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***

[The Mike]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Did GL fail because of Nolan's universe neglet or do you think Nolan did an "I told you so" to WB.

GL didn't introduce any others than obscure references that people probably didn't get anyway. GL originally was supposed to be the "DCU Iron Man" but as the budget continued to inflate, things were cut. Campbell and company even had parts written for Clark Kent (he was supposed to be covering the experimental jet sequence) but the casting was done in time and WB wasn't happy about the mentioning of Tom Welling stepping in to establish it. Also nods to The Flash, Batman via Wayne Enterprises was also cut because the story was getting out of hand at that point. WB wanted more than an after the credits sequence but Amanda Waller originally was touted as DC's Nick Fury as she was supposed to appear in all the rest of the flicks and then lead into something bigger, that stuff as far as I've read has been scrapped.

Im happy about it, Burton did the same, no problem there, spiderman did the same, I mean, I know Avengers is cool and all, but I like my heroes separated from each other, Unless the story is combining them, I would hate to see something related to superman in a batman movie, Unless they are doing Justice league, then leave them alone, i know comics have them cross all the time, but seeing green lantern or superman in batman and is not a justice league movie for me it would suck. It would take away from batman, it would just suck, i mean in a batman movie.

You don't have to visually see something to include it. Even Marvel's group often included things that were "easter eggs" like the Infinity Guantlet or even the Hulk coverage on the screens behind Tony that let you know he was part of a grander world.

Burton originally had a plan to include his new Superman within his own Batman universe referencing it but not directly including it until that plan fell apart.

What is ironic is that people are complaining that other heroes wouldn't fit with Nolan's Batman because it'd be cheesy but they forget that almost every Batfilm outside of the 89 original (although it had it's parts) was cheesy as hell and that Nolan set everything into his own mold, including other heroes in cameos throughout could have set the tone for those heroes as well and made it less chessy, although that is crying over split milk at this point.

Another funny point is that Nolan is producing the new reboot in 2014 and has admitted that WB wants that Batman to coexist with other heroes and has said he has thought and is thinking about how to help Batman do that. The director of whatever that is will obviously have huge say but we'll see a Nolan influenced Batman amongst those heroes anyway.

My points weren't to tell Nolan what to do or that I could do it better (gotta love trolls) it was my simple mentioning that removing that aspect of the character always bothered me and I was simply taking part in the grander discussion. If it didn't bother some fine, but being an avid reader of the comics, that is definitely one of the points that made Batman so great, that he could defeat Superman or Green Lantern using his mind and logic and I would have liked to have seen that in the Nolan films.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I see both sides of the argument here

On the one hand, we know Nolan always intended for his Batman to be standalone. Yes, you may argue like Mike does, that this simply ignores an important facet of his characterization in the comics; the fact that he is a mortal among immortals and can more than hold his own - but fact is, Nolan's entire premise for his vision is based on the notion that, what if you can become more than just a man? What happens when a traumatic and tragic childhood experience motivates a normal human being to the extreme and makes him crazy enough to not only train himself for 7-8 years, but to dress up like a bat and think he can single handedly make a difference to a city that is corrupt and rotten to its core.

That to me is taking the essence of Batman and Bruce Wayne, and what Nolan has done is simply explored that idea it in a setting which is 'hyper realistic'. By that I mean, yes, there are crazy things that happen such as the Microwave emitter or Batman surviving a massive fall or somehow never getting shot in the face, but MOST people watching Nolan's films are not 'taken out' of the experience when those instances crop up (notice I said MOST people, I know it is a big issue for some).

Now, beyond all that, the key differentiator between what Nolan is doing with his trilogy and what has happened with any other comic book character based trilogy, is that he is looking to have a definitive ENDING to his story.

Think about it, wouldn't it be great to have a trilogy that has an amazing origin story, an amazing middle with one of the best on screen villains ever seen, and potentially an epic ending which tops each of the preceding films. Wouldn't it be amazing that once it is finished, that noone can go back and tinker with it, that noone can add a story x number of years later which adds some new knowledge or insight about what we have seen before? Think of it as a work of art in 3 pieces, once the artist says its over, it should be over.

It's like the 'Before Watchmen' fiasco. If Alan Moore feels Watchmen should be standalone, then I really think that artistic vision should be respected.


Now coming to the other side of the argument:


If by the end of TDKR, Bruce Wayne is still alive, and is still Batman, THEN and ONLY then, I can see a path where Nolan's Batman can be integrated into a wider DCU.

If Bruce has died and JGL has taken up the mantle, a non-Bruce Wayne Batman in an integrated DCU would DEFINITELY feel forced and would be pretty stupid IMO

If Bruce has retired, then I am CERTAIN Nolan will show us a series of events that justifies his retirement. In other words, if he has retired and that is what Nolan's 'END' for his trilogy is, then I would want that to be respected. Bringing Nolan Batman out of retirement (whether or not he is played by Bale or anyone else), would again feel very forced and would undermine Nolan's intention to have an END to his story. I would NOT be happy with that.

So we come back to the only scenario under-which Nolan's trilogy can be acceptably integrated into the DCU - Bruce Wayne is alive, and IS still Batman.

Now under this scenario, I COULD potentially see Superman introduced to us, as Nam said, AFTER the events of TDKR. So basically the world thus far has been 'normal' with no evidence of Aliens or Meta-humans, but one fine day, this Alien being appears in Metropolis and reveals himself. I could see that working if handled very carefully.

Following that, we could see Green Lantern show up, Flash, Martian Manhunter, they could all be integrated step by step. The Nolan Trilogy could be referred to as a past era before humans were aware of Aliens and before super-powered humans came into being.

Approaching things in this way would capitalize on the very strong base and audience Nolan built up via his Trilogy, and would invalidate the need for yet another Batman reboot.

All of this, I would only be comfortable with if Nolan was on board - if he was on board, and with his involvement in Superman, i'm sure he could address the integration very effectively.

----

Now, which of the above 2 scenarios do I actually prefer? I don't know. I think I lean towards scenario 1. I don't get the feeling Bruce Wayne as Batman will survive to the end of TDKR, whether retirement gets him or death. If either of those happen, scenario 2 is out of the question for me anyway.

It would probably be best for MoS to effectively start off the 'DCU Reboot' if you will.

Batman reboot in 2014 would build on that, but hopefully, not be an origin story, more like Batman 89 where there are some glimpses of his past but we start the film more or less with him established.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

It was his decision. They dropped her because of what Tom Cruise was doing and for the fact that she can't act. And yea, it did hurt TDK because they replaced her with a woof.

From my understanding, Katie is the one who declined doing the sequel.

Neither of them did a good job IMO, I think that's my only negative against the first 2 films

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

From my understanding, Katie is the one who declined doing the sequel.

Neither of them did a good job IMO, I think that's my only negative against the first 2 films

Give him credit ... at least he found a way to cast another bad actress for the sake of character consistency. Heh.

SnakeDoc

 

[Matt S]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Always thought they should have given the role to Kirsten Dunst myself.

 

[Platty]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Sorry if this has been posted, took this from a different thread,

The rises bit! There's definitely a suprise coming and I think it's in the form of JGL. Robin!

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

JGL will NOT be Robin... IMO

Nightwing...OUTSIDE chance..

Azrael (costumed)..OUTSIDE chance..

Batman successor, a little bit more than an OUTSIDE chance..

Good cop who fills the void in Batman's absence and shows Batman that the city is still worth fighting for, there is still good in many citizens..Strong chance

Nightwing/Azrael without being called that name and without the costume - Strong chance


Who the ____ knows?!?!?

 

[Platty]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

It really can't come quick enough now.

 

[Nightwing]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I've been waiting an extremely long time for my debut

Its finally time!!!!! Im gonna DEBU-----

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Stretches? Or throws it right out the window? You forgot falling more than 30 stories with a woman and both literally walking away

A wee bit higher than 30 stories, wouldn't you say? :

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45VtzmtA_C0[/ame]

Improbable that and (armored) Batman and Rachel would survive 30 stories with only a half-open cape as a parachute? Yes. More improbable than an unarmored guy free falling 15,000 feet into a bush and living? Not so much.

More freefall survival stories here: https://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html

rooftops supporting a 2-ton tumbler with little to no damage

1. The Tumbler is a big vehicle, but it's weight is never mentioned, but we know it is light enough to make jumps under it's own power. 2. Can't argue for or against the rooftops of Gotham supporting it unless we know both it's weight and the weight capacity of said rooftops...which btw, were visibly damaged by the Tumbler.

the physics behind the Batpod fitting perfectly into the front end of the Tumbler

We know that the Batpod transformation was CGI. For the practical purpose of movie-making and to have the right look to the ejection effect, that was the best way to do it. But as this schematic shows, it is definitely possible for the Batpod parts to be tucked away inside the Tumbler without violating physics. Batman's seat is too high in this schematic though...unless it lays more flat in Tumbler mode and pops up under him during the transformation. Again...improbable, definitely. Impossible? No.

criminals absolutely refusing to shoot Batman in his exposed face

Criminals are dumb, what can I say? US soldiers and S.W.A.T. cops don't wear bullet proof face masks, just body armor and ballistic helmets. Why? It's way more probable that someone will shoot at the largest part of their body. Besides, Batman isn't ever standing still for long enough for a sniper to get a lucky shot to his face. The one time that Joker had him incapacitated after the Batpod crash, he wasn't interested in killing him. When Two-Face had a clear shot at him standing still, he didn't think to aim for his face. That much luck is improbable, yes, but that's the very definition of luck. Is it impossible? Nope.

a villain who has fourth degree burns over 1/2 of his body but feels zero pain and has absolutely no risk of infection despite being exposed to the elements

There's no such thing as 4th degree burns, at most Harvey's had to be 3rd degree--the most serious level. And Harvey didn't feel "zero pain"...in fact, according Gordon, he's "in agonizing pain, yet refuses painkillers". Harvey is in physical pain, but too damn pissed off to care. We don't know that his exposed burns didn't get infected, that's conjecture. Looked pretty damn infected to me.

These people survived a wee bit worse than Harvey Dent's measly 50% 3rd degree burns, no? (warning, graphic images):

Survived 3rd degree burns over 90% of her body as a baby.

https://www.metro.co.uk/news/850938-girl-with-worst-burns-ever-known-issues-candle-warning

3rd degree burns over 90% of his body from an explosion.

https://www.survivorshope.org/home.html

Again, is it improbable that Harvey would survive? Yes. Impossible? Clearly not.

an entire city, especially those who've been in close proximity to both, who can't recognize the correlation between Wayne and Batman despite both having the same height, eyes, build, mouth/chin and the most defining feature, the same speech impediment, etc., etc., etc.,

Really? An entire city? Like every single citizen? Hyperbole much? Bruce Wayne is a famous-faced playboy sure, but the BEST picture the Gotham public has of Batman is this

Why would any member of the general public assume they are the same guy? Most of the handful of characters that did get a good look at both of them do know they're the same guy. Rachel, Lucius, Ra's/Ducard...and I'd argue there are enough hints that Gordon knows too. The only one that has interacted with both up close and failed to notice is Harvey Dent.

There are plenty of examples in Nolan's films where Batman is just as surrealistic as Superman or any other DC character.

I eagerly await your rebuttal evidence showing an example of the existence of a bullet-proof-flying-alien in the real world, proving it is on the same level of plausibily as all of the above real-word examples.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

JGL will NOT be Robin... IMO

Nightwing...OUTSIDE chance..

Azrael (costumed)..OUTSIDE chance..

Batman successor, a little bit more than an OUTSIDE chance..

Good cop who fills the void in Batman's absence and shows Batman that the city is still worth fighting for, there is still good in many citizens..Strong chance

Nightwing/Azrael without being called that name and without the costume - Strong chance


Who the ____ knows?!?!?

Agreed. The only way I can see him being Robin is if he became the sidekick during the 8-year layoff between TDK and TDKR. Might be an interesting way to do it -- imply that he was a sidekick for several years, that he got all the training he needed, and that he's stepped down and is now a cop in the GPD. Grayson became a cop after retiring as Robin anyway.

Azrael seems too obscure, though. And, he ended up being a villain when Batman came back. I don't see JGL ending up a villain.

SnakeDoc

 

[Nightwing]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Agreed. The only way I can see him being Robin is if he became the sidekick during the 8-year layoff between TDK and TDKR. Might be an interesting way to do it -- imply that he was a sidekick for several years, that he got all the training he needed, and that he's stepped down and is now a cop in the GPD. Grayson became a cop after retiring as Robin anyway.

Azrael seems too obscure, though. And, he ended up being a villain when Batman came back. I don't see JGL ending up a villain.

SnakeDoc

Why would he drop the name Grayson though. Was the mob after him for being the only surviving member of his family, so he changed his identity to try and remain safe? Does he want everyone to think Grayson died shortly after his parents? What if Bane has something to do with their deaths?

 

[Wor-Gar]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

DarkMagic is right! Batman is real!

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

A wee bit higher than 30 stories, wouldn't you say? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45VtzmtA_C0

Improbable that and (armored) Batman and Rachel would survive 30 stories with only a half-open cape as a parachute? Yes. More improbable than an unarmored guy free falling 15,000 feet into a bush and living? Not so much.

More freefall survival stories here: https://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html

1. The Tumbler is a big vehicle, but it's weight is never mentioned, but we know it is light enough to make jumps under it's own power. 2. Can't argue for or against the rooftops of Gotham supporting it unless we know both it's weight and the weight capacity of said rooftops...which btw, were visibly damaged by the Tumbler.


We know that the Batpod transformation was CGI. For the practical purpose of movie-making and to have the right look to the ejection effect, that was the best way to do it. But as this schematic shows, it is definitely possible for the Batpod parts to be tucked away inside the Tumbler without violating physics. Batman's seat is too high in this schematic though...unless it lays more flat in Tumbler mode and pops up under him during the transformation. Again...improbable, definitely. Impossible? No.

Criminals are dumb, what can I say? US soldiers and S.W.A.T. cops don't wear bullet proof face masks, just body armor and ballistic helmets. Why? It's way more probable that someone will shoot at the largest part of their body. Besides, Batman isn't ever standing still for long enough for a sniper to get a lucky shot to his face. The one time that Joker had him incapacitated after the Batpod crash, he wasn't interested in killing him. When Two-Face had a clear shot at him standing still, he didn't think to aim for his face. That much luck is improbable, yes, but that's the very definition of luck. Is it impossible? Nope.

There's no such thing as 4th degree burns, at most Harvey's had to be 3rd degree--the most serious level. And Harvey didn't feel "zero pain"...in fact, according Gordon, he's "in agonizing pain, yet refuses painkillers". Harvey is in physical pain, but too damn pissed off to care. We don't know that his exposed burns didn't get infected, that's conjecture. Looked pretty damn infected to me.

These people survived a wee bit worse than Harvey Dent's measly 50% 3rd degree burns, no? (warning, graphic images):

Survived 3rd degree burns over 90% of her body as a baby.

https://www.metro.co.uk/news/850938-girl-with-worst-burns-ever-known-issues-candle-warning

3rd degree burns over 90% of his body from an explosion.

https://www.survivorshope.org/home.html

Again, is it improbable that Harvey would survive? Yes. Impossible? Clearly not.



Really? An entire city? Like every single citizen? Hyperbole much? Bruce Wayne is a famous-faced playboy sure, but the BEST picture the Gotham public has of Batman is this

Why would any member of the general public assume they are the same guy? Most of the handful of characters that did get a good look at both of them do know they're the same guy. Rachel, Lucius, Ra's/Ducard...and I'd argue there are enough hints that Gordon knows too. The only one that has interacted with both up close and failed to notice is Harvey Dent.



I eagerly await your rebuttal evidence showing an example of the existence of a bullet-proof-flying-alien in the real world, proving it is on the same level of plausibily as all of the above real-word examples.

Sounds like a big bunch of apologistic garbage, forgetting even minor things like with Rachel falling there was almost double the mass and no open cape, the BatPod couldn't fit if Batman has the ability to go prone inside the Tumbler, the Tumbler didn't make the jumps without the rocket and your blatant ignorance regarding 4th degree burns (google it ). You'll have to do better than that to even make any of your counters remotely feasible.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Why would he drop the name Grayson though. Was the mob after him for being the only surviving member of his family, so he changed his identity to try and remain safe? Does he want everyone to think Grayson died shortly after his parents?

Maybe his name in the movie isn't "Blake" -- could be just a movie production ruse. Maybe Blake an alias and he's undercover for some reason. Maybe he was always Blake, never had the name Grayson, and the character is just based on the concept. Maybe the character isn't even based on the concept.

Time will tell.

SnakeDoc

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Sounds like a big bunch of apologistic garbage, forgetting even minor things like with Rachel falling there was almost double the mass and no open cape, the BatPod couldn't fit if Batman has the ability to go prone inside the Tumbler, the Tumbler didn't make the jumps without the rocket and your blatant ignorance regarding 4th degree burns (google it ). You'll have to do better than that to even make any of your counters remotely feasible.

Yet...you yourself continue to present nothing remotely close to a Superman.

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

DarkMagic is right! Batman is real!

hahaha.
Not real.

Not likely.

Not probable.

https://www.becomingbatman.com/

Not impossible.

 

[Moonloop]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

A wee bit higher than 30 stories, wouldn't you say? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45VtzmtA_C0

Improbable that and (armored) Batman and Rachel would survive 30 stories with only a half-open cape as a parachute? Yes. More improbable than an unarmored guy free falling 15,000 feet into a bush and living? Not so much.

More freefall survival stories here: https://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html

1. The Tumbler is a big vehicle, but it's weight is never mentioned, but we know it is light enough to make jumps under it's own power. 2. Can't argue for or against the rooftops of Gotham supporting it unless we know both it's weight and the weight capacity of said rooftops...which btw, were visibly damaged by the Tumbler.


We know that the Batpod transformation was CGI. For the practical purpose of movie-making and to have the right look to the ejection effect, that was the best way to do it. But as this schematic shows, it is definitely possible for the Batpod parts to be tucked away inside the Tumbler without violating physics. Batman's seat is too high in this schematic though...unless it lays more flat in Tumbler mode and pops up under him during the transformation. Again...improbable, definitely. Impossible? No.

Criminals are dumb, what can I say? US soldiers and S.W.A.T. cops don't wear bullet proof face masks, just body armor and ballistic helmets. Why? It's way more probable that someone will shoot at the largest part of their body. Besides, Batman isn't ever standing still for long enough for a sniper to get a lucky shot to his face. The one time that Joker had him incapacitated after the Batpod crash, he wasn't interested in killing him. When Two-Face had a clear shot at him standing still, he didn't think to aim for his face. That much luck is improbable, yes, but that's the very definition of luck. Is it impossible? Nope.

There's no such thing as 4th degree burns, at most Harvey's had to be 3rd degree--the most serious level. And Harvey didn't feel "zero pain"...in fact, according Gordon, he's "in agonizing pain, yet refuses painkillers". Harvey is in physical pain, but too damn pissed off to care. We don't know that his exposed burns didn't get infected, that's conjecture. Looked pretty damn infected to me.

These people survived a wee bit worse than Harvey Dent's measly 50% 3rd degree burns, no? (warning, graphic images):

Survived 3rd degree burns over 90% of her body as a baby.

https://www.metro.co.uk/news/850938-girl-with-worst-burns-ever-known-issues-candle-warning

3rd degree burns over 90% of his body from an explosion.

https://www.survivorshope.org/home.html

Again, is it improbable that Harvey would survive? Yes. Impossible? Clearly not.



Really? An entire city? Like every single citizen? Hyperbole much? Bruce Wayne is a famous-faced playboy sure, but the BEST picture the Gotham public has of Batman is this

Why would any member of the general public assume they are the same guy? Most of the handful of characters that did get a good look at both of them do know they're the same guy. Rachel, Lucius, Ra's/Ducard...and I'd argue there are enough hints that Gordon knows too. The only one that has interacted with both up close and failed to notice is Harvey Dent.



I eagerly await your rebuttal evidence showing an example of the existence of a bullet-proof-flying-alien in the real world, proving it is on the same level of plausibily as all of the above real-word examples.

Really good informative posting! What your saying seems like common sense to me....as you say, improbable? Yes. Impossible? No.

Either wat, some people go back and forth about this too much, just enjoy the film and be thankful!

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Really good informative posting! What your saying seems like common sense to me....as you say, improbable? Yes. Impossible? No.

Either wat, some people go back and forth about this too much, just enjoy the film and be thankful!

Agreed

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yet...you yourself continue to present nothing remotely close to a Superman.

Not remotely close to Superman, but my point wasn't that, just that it's equally as fantastical. Both characters, in a film environment as we will see with Superman and as we've seen with Nolan's Batman, require you to suspend belief. That's my point.