The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

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I see a few people (not on here) are defending the Hobbit movies by saying, "well, it not LOTR and the subject matter is not as heavy, it's based on a children's book!".

That seems like a load of bull. If the films are based on a children's fairy tale, what was up with the long, dour battle? There were close up shots of butchered elf and Laketown people! Thorin was going to throw Bilbo over the ledge to break his neck just because of the truce. I could feel they were trying to make the Battle of the Five armies be as epic and grandiose as LOTR. If it's a children's fairy tale, why does it end with a young, neurotic Bilbo, fiddling around in his pocket for the ring with forbidding "evil ring" music? Shouldn't it have left off on a more uplifting note? The movies aren't about Sauron or the ring after all. If it's "not LOTR", why do we have Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman going into Sauron's spooky house of thrills and fighting Ringwraiths? Why Legolas or the Strider references that needlessly ponder to fans? Why Fellowship cue music when the Fellowship doesn't even exist? This isn't LOTR right? If this is a lighter fare, why the need for a copy-cat trilogy when the subject matter is more straight forward (Hobbit reluctantly leaves hole, gets dwarves out of trouble with his cunning, meets exotic characters and returns home an unlikely hero).

All those slow motion shots from the seizure inducing Sauron flame effect, to Galadriel going psycho, to Thorin getting trippy for three minutes in the gold pool and even the ice battle where Thorin just watches Azog float beneath him seemed like unnecessary bloat. We get these things but no wrap up on the Erebor, Thorin's funeral and what became of Laketown? Par that with side stories that don't even belong (Alfrid, Tauriel/Kili love, orc father/son) and it seems like unnecessary dramatic fluff that has no business being in a "lighter", "non-LOTR" adventure. They're all false stakes. Why should I care about Gandalf being trapped in a cage when I know he's going to make it out okay? Why should I care about Legolas fighting an Orc-Son when I know that A. Legolas is going to kill him in some "spectacular" fashion and, B. Orcs don't care about each other or show compassion, so what are the ramifications to Orc-Dad on the ice who will die shortly as well? If those things aren't needless filler, then why are they there to over complicate a relatively simple story? This is Bilbo's tale, a tale he tells with enthusiasm and passion, yet, after an exhausting battle it ends with a damaged goods Bilbo. I half expected him to check out after looking around at his picked through house (before it cuts to "LOTR"). Also, why would you have Tauriel/Fili/Legolas/Thranduil "love hurts so much!" scene have as much, or more importance over Bilbo and the death of Thorin? Huh? Those two are the main characters! Guess they needed that punchy Aragorn reference to promote next year's "Fellowship of the Ring" film . . . oh, wait.

The movies I dislike the most are the ones that always make me question and ask, "why?". After days of letting these Hobbit movies fester in my brain, that's all I can think of is "why". Why introduce battle worms if they're not going to be in the battle? Because of a sentence in the book? Why then focus on things that weren't in the book? If it's not LOTR, why treat it like it kinda-sorta is? Why does Thorin have a literal "dragon sickness" that he snaps out of by himself when simply being greedy would have been more compelling? I don't really think you need three movies filled with epic CGI, ADD battles, multiple contrived subplots and other distractions to tell the simple story of a Hobbit that was swept up in an adventure that made him appreciate his home and life more.

All good points... I guess the overall tone just is not as heavy or dark as LOTR yet has enough dark moments to feel like it's still connected.

As for all the why's.. I can't argue with most of them... I did not know that the two orcs were supposed to be father and son... Are you sure of that??

As for not fearing the death of certain characters and knowing the outcome... Can't the same be said when watching a comic book film or and Indiana Jones film etc.. We know our hero will win in the end so why even try?? It's the fun of seeing how it gets there.

But I am not going to argue with all your other points... I don't have enough invested in these films and I tend to agree with some of them.
 
While they were cleaning up the transfer for JAWS, they should have painted over the original Bruce shark with a new and improved CG version using the same technology that gave us the fantastic Azog and Dain characters. THEN maybe JAWS would be perfect.


Cartoon JAWS would still be perfect because story and human characters are perfect :)
 
I said, does he LOOK like an LOTR wraith...

Did you mean AUJ wraith?

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Many of the points against the Hobbit series I have no argument for because they are well thought out coherent valid observations. However, I don't care. I love these movies warts and all so you fun suckers can eat it! :moon

...I do find it funny a bit that if you like these films you're a fanboy, but that's typical for the Internet...

I don't mind people calling me a fanboy mainly because I am. Say it loud and say it proud! Shout it from the rooftops! :blissy :yess:

Josh and Khev, the two of you need to get together in the real world so you can give eachother high fives all day long. :D

:hi5: :rock

 
I don't have enough invested in these films and I tend to agree with some of them.

Same here. I guess I'm just trying to blow off steam. It just sucks because my logic was/is, "hey, this is the same family that brought you Lord of the Rings and you ****ing loves those!" I was pumped as hell for that spine tingling Lonely Mountain trailer, but then was disappointed with AUJ. I figured, eh, next year would be better and it was only "ok". Then for the last one, I went in with low expectations and it ended up being worse than the other two.

Now that I'm not invested in them, I'm just going through the "why" phase. I've done that with all the movies I've been pumped for during pre-hype but am ultimately disappointed in by the end. Atleast I'll always have Lord of the Rings.

Cartoon JAWS would still be perfect because story and human characters are perfect :)

This is true.

But you know what the human characters need? A LOVE TRIANGLE. Brody, Mrs. Brody and Hooper. "Why does live hurt so much?!?", "That's not love Mrs. Brody, that shark just bit off your arm."
 
Legolas was a badass. Loved Tauriel but wasn't whipped. Would die to protect her but while she mourned the loss of Kili he didn't even bother to say goodbye. He's all okay she loves him, let me go find some rangers to kill orcs with. See ya!
 
Same here. I guess I'm just trying to blow off steam. It just sucks because my logic was/is, "hey, this is the same family that brought you Lord of the Rings and you ****ing loves those!" I was pumped as hell for that spine tingling Lonely Mountain trailer, but then was disappointed with AUJ. I figured, eh, next year would be better and it was only "ok". Then for the last one, I went in with low expectations and it ended up being worse than the other two.

Now that I'm not invested in them, I'm just going through the "why" phase. I've done that with all the movies I've been pumped for during pre-hype but am ultimately disappointed in by the end. Atleast I'll always have Lord of the Rings.



This is true.

But you know what the human characters need? A LOVE TRIANGLE. Brody, Mrs. Brody and Hooper. "Why does live hurt so much?!?", "That's not love Mrs. Brody, that shark just bit off your arm."

Love Triangle for JAWS... Brilliant... Hope they do a remake with better F/X and a brokeback subplot.
 
Same here. I guess I'm just trying to blow off steam. It just sucks because my logic was/is, "hey, this is the same family that brought you Lord of the Rings and you ****ing loves those!" I was pumped as hell for that spine tingling Lonely Mountain trailer, but then was disappointed with AUJ. I figured, eh, next year would be better and it was only "ok". Then for the last one, I went in with low expectations and it ended up being worse than the other two.

Now that I'm not invested in them, I'm just going through the "why" phase. I've done that with all the movies I've been pumped for during pre-hype but am ultimately disappointed in by the end. Atleast I'll always have Lord of the Rings.

."

Funny. I actually like the first one best... The second one worst and the third is somewhere in between. :)

But they are far from perfect and could have been better... I think it's obvious that PJ did not want to have to direct these films... They come off as a bit rushed and not as loved by it's filmmakers as LOTR was.
 
DiFabio, would you consider any moments in the Hobbit to be pulled off perfectly, or at least to your liking?

I know in DOS, the Spider sequence was done extremely well, I had wondered how Jackson would reconcile the talking spiders before seeing it, and making it part of the One Ring's magic was nothing short of brilliant, at least I thought.

Smaug's scene with Bilbo was just about as good as I could have hoped for, though while the Dragon chase was fun to look at, I do wish it had been kept to just Bilbo and Smaug.

LOTR is a hard standard to meet up to, even for the same Director. Part of me still thinks Jackson was a bit burned out from LOTR, and much of the magic and excitement for him had diminished.
 
Smaug's scene with Bilbo was just about as good as I could have hoped for, though while the Dragon chase was fun to look at, I do wish it had been kept to just Bilbo and Smaug.

PJ, Fran and Philippa felt that in the book the dwarves just stood by too many times and let other people fight their battles for them. For that reason they constructed the showdown of Thorin and Co. vs. Smaug. It was going to be shorter when it was still just two movies but they expanded the showdown to make it a more climactic finale when it was determined that a middle film would be born and this confrontation would close it out.
 
DiFabio, would you consider any moments in the Hobbit to be pulled off perfectly, or at least to your liking?


Oh yeah, definitely.

- "Good morning"
- Dwarves arriving at Bag End
- Lonely Mountain song as Bilbo contemplates going with them
- Bilbo getting the company out of trouble with his cunning, particularly the trolls

- Gollum
- Riddles in the Dark (perfect)
- Sparing Gollum's life
- lumberjack Beorn getting pissed at these rude dwarves

- Mirkwood forest, hallucinating, spiders
- Bilbo and Smaug (perfect)
- Smaug getting killed in Laketown
- Thorin and Bilbo talking about the nut, how Bilbo is the only one that Thorin can trust
- Bilbo handing over the arkenstone to Gandalf, Thranduil and Bard saying he's giving it to them out of self interest
- death of Thorin, last exchange between him and Bilbo



All enjoyable, well done moments in a sea of BS and crap. I could watch those scenes by themselves. In retrospect, I can see why these movies were in development hell for years. I think there was a clash in vision and direction as these things were being made, not just between Del Torro, Jackson, the other writers and producers, but the studios as well. Anyone remember when it was one movie? Then two movies with the second being a "bridge" story between Hobbit and LOTR that would have features Aragorn and more Gollum? I think these always suffered from bloat and too many cooks. Instead of being as strict as possible with their story and overreaching themes like in LOTR (remember when they had the reserve to cut out Arwen from Helms Deep? Or Elrond and Arwen visiting Galadriel or the huge Sauron vs. Aragorn video game battle), it seems like they said "the hell with it" and did whatever.



EDIT:

Also liked that little character moment where Gandalf and Bilbo are chilling after the fight and Gandalf is trying to light his pipe and starts smoking. Not a word between the two, but you could tell what they were thinking.
 
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When it came to LOTR, anything, and I mean anything added on was good in my eyes. The more time in Middle Earth the better.

But now, especialy with this last film, it felt too long, something I never thought I would say in regards to these films. As much as I love Middle Earth, it did feel padded. It was obvious they were trying to stretch the material, which is a shame, because that is where many of the complaints come from.

I don't mind appendice additions, at least that can be argued as it was later written by Tolkein.

Alfrid was irritating and the Elf/Dwarf love story was unnecessary and under-developed. Legolas being in the Mirkwood scenes makes sense to me, even being a part of Tharanduils (sp?) army makes sense, having Legolas (and Taurial) follow the Dwarves after they escaped his father's dungeons seemed a stretch.

There is a lot in the movie that is not needed, but I am probably a hypocrite since I will buy th EE edition when it comes out.
 
But they are far from perfect and could have been better... I think it's obvious that PJ did not want to have to direct these films... They come off as a bit rushed and not as loved by it's filmmakers as LOTR was.

They're not perfect but they're damn good all the same, IMO. It sucks someone like Difabio didn't like them but it is what it is. I've seen you and others say this before. Based on what Jackson has said and what his reaction to it ending some of which I've seen in person he loved making these.
 
Legolas (and Taurial) follow the Dwarves after they escaped his father's dungeons seemed a stretch.

Legolas wasn't following the dwarves he was ridding orcs from his father's kingdom. As soon as they hit the border of Thranduil's lands he stopped. Tauriel was the renegade who wanted to take the fight outside of the elf forest.
 
What winds me up in the final film was all the cheap dialogue from extras in order to reveal plot points.

What about half the dwarves not looking like dwarves?

And perhaps it was just me, but the acting seemed terrible in the final film.

I hated the ringwraith showdown with Elrond, Saruman etc - I think Tolkien would have turned in his grave seeing that.

I loved Legolas in LOTR - he was always there, dependable, like a right hand man to Aragorn. He stood stoic and powerful and appeared very very dangerous - I loved him climbing on the cave troll/skateboarding/mumakil etc but The Hobbit was just childish stupidity. If you look at the scenes where he uses his knives in LOTR - he's so dangerous. He slices an orc face in Moria; slits an urak-hai throat at Amon Hen and brutal stabs an urak-hai at Helm's Deep. Not sure what he did in The Desolation of Smaug - and the less said about Five Armies the better.

The fighting was incredible in LOTR - so forceful and scary. The fight at Amon Hen was brutal at times and I don't even need to mention Helm's Deep.

Even the sub plots of LOTR were superb - it nearly brought me to tears the first time I saw Denethor tell Faramir that he wished he had died and Boromir had lived.

Aragorn's 'For Frodo' and 'You bow to no one' get me everytime.

But the best - BEST - scene is Theoden's speech to the riders before the charge onto the Pellenor fields. Staring death in the face, the change in his character since the Two Towers, his contrast with Denethor who has succumbed to despair whereas Theoden has embraced hope - it's stunning storytelling.

Nothing as powerful as this existed in The Hobbit. I think they wanted to make Thorin into such a tragic character but it just didn't work. They wanted Fili and Kili's death to be powerful but it was so forced and fake. They would have been powerful if they had died in the middle of the battle field amongst their fellow dwarves who could only look on helpless - a little bit like Legolas running to save Aragorn at the Black Gate because he thinks he is going to be killed by the troll. That was powerful.

The new trilogy is a disappointment. It has some good moments but it was mostly a let down.

And I'm pretty sure that Bard twanging a giant bow in his son's face should have ripped his head off and sent him flying.
 
Even though I have my problems with them, I do still like them. Any excuse to revisit Middle Earth is a good excuse to me, but I won't kid myself and say they couldnt have been much better.
 
Yeah, Mrs. Brody and Hooper had an affair in the book and Brody wanted to kill him. That's why I posted that (along with the obvious Kili/Tauriel dig).
 
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