Children of Hurin Discussion Thread

[gtb]

Ever since the high hype of getting the signature copies of the book (which I don't have, sadly), I wonder if anyone have actually read it.

This is really the first time I have attempted a Tolkien book from the beginning.. the main (Lord of the Rings) book has been selective readings.

I am hoping this thread will be served as a channel for me (or some of us) to consult those who are more familiar with Tolkien lore.

So far, I don't think The Encyclopedia of Arda is updated to contain all the entries concerning the places/names as mentioned in the CoH.

As a start, I wish to consult the experts here for the following:-

1. In the introduction of the book, it is mentioned of Annals of Beleriand, is it referring to a ficitonal book or is there a chapter somewhere in the HoME, Unfinished Tales or otherwise, if so, where is it?

2. Most of the Elvish names, including the title "Narn i Chîn Húrin" - is it Quenya or Sindarin?


It also seemed the Wikipedia may be able to answer many questions, if so, just direct me there.. tks

 

[Daveyjaro]

I have read nearly all of Tolkien's works, including most of the HoME. I have 3 more volumes to read there.

"Narn I Hin Hurin" is Sindarin and means "Tale of the the Children of Hurin"

The Annals of Beleriand is in the HoME Volume IV: The Shaping of Middle-Earth, which ncudes the Quenta, the Ambarkanta and the Annals.

The Children of Hurin is like the Narn found in Unfinished Tales, but adds more I believe. I have read the first chapter so far.

I believe this book can easily be made into a great movie. It has a manageable plot and along with Tuor and Gondolin and Beren/Luthien can all be made into movies with the Silmarillion serving as the back-drop. Will it be attempted? Someone should, it has more depth of feeling for me than Lord of the Rings.

 

[gtb]

Really wish to thank you for replying.

At first, I was a little upset when there was no posts... as there was so much hype before this.

Thanks a lot, there is a copy of HoME in my workplace's library.. will check it out. Reading HoME from cover to cover is no mean feat!

 

[Captain Faramir]

I really want to reply but I don't have a copy yet so I haven't read it. Once I have I'll be all over this thread!

 

[gtb]

I was just waiting for you Cap'n. There is also another Capt'n right? I am currently at Chapter 6-7... watching some series now... so pause for awhile catching up with all the season finale...

 

[Captain Faramir]

Another Captain? Heavens no! (well maybe but I'm the only one who goes by Capt'n/Captain/Cap't/Cap whatever ).

As soon as I can grab one I'll read it, I've been dying to start it since I first heard about it. Man I feel so behind--and in a LOTR thread, that's a funny thing for me. Oh well, soon enough I guess. I love what parts of the story we have in the Silmarillion, so I'm excited. What I would really want though is an entire work based on the Lay of Leithian, undoubtedly one of the most exquisite works Tolkien ever crafted, and certainly one of the most significant tales in all the lore of Middle Earth.

 

[Vader AL]

i finished The Hobbit and am waiting on my Collector's Edition of LOTR to arrive and once I read that I am going to read CoH. I'll squeeze in Silmarillion in after that. it's hard not to start reading through CoH while I wait for LOTR to arrive.

 

[gtb]

To capt'n Faramir: I thought it is Captain Aleggorn, something like that.. or is it you? I am not sure if the ID can be change in the first place.

I supposed it is you that Capt'n Faramir, I read about your posts in the thread : A question on LOTR, your writings show you have much passion of Tolkien's work. And I am glad to know that there is someone who actually look deeper into the meanings of his work. In the beginning, i hoping (I still do), the collectibles from SSW will inspire me to capture the important moments in the story - or tale as Professor Tolkien liked to call it.

Hope we can share more when both of us have finished it!

TO Vader AL: Actually, there isn't much connection to the Third Age (LOTR) perhaps little with Silmarillion, since it is after all some overlapping.

 

[carbo-fation]

I finished CoH a week after it was released in April! It was a great read, but I preferred the stories in the Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillon over this version. CoH didn't go as in depth as I'd have liked, but I guess it was meant to be for people who haven't read the HoME or LOTR, but just watched the movies.

 

[Vader AL]

To capt'n Faramir: I thought it is Captain Aleggorn, something like that.. or is it you? I am not sure if the ID can be change in the first place.

I supposed it is you that Capt'n Faramir, I read about your posts in the thread : A question on LOTR, your writings show you have much passion of Tolkien's work. And I am glad to know that there is someone who actually look deeper into the meanings of his work. In the beginning, i hoping (I still do), the collectibles from SSW will inspire me to capture the important moments in the story - or tale as Professor Tolkien liked to call it.

Hope we can share more when both of us have finished it!

TO Vader AL: Actually, there isn't much connection to the Third Age (LOTR) perhaps little with Silmarillion, since it is after all some overlapping.

Yep those two Captains you mentioned are the same person, he altered his User I.d.

Thanks for the heads-up regarding the books....if LOTR isn't here by today I'll start on CoH.

 

[tomandshell]

I was finally able to start reading my copy of the deluxe edition that finally arrived, but I am only one chapter into it. I think that it will be appreciated much more by Tolkien fans who have read his other works and will be familiar with the references and terminology, but I am enjoying it so far.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Yeah sorry I did change it in honor of Faramir's coming--which still hasn't happened. Thanks for the comments, I love talking about Tolkien's works. This one should be great, it's got some of the best characters from The Silmarillion in it. I've got to get a hold of one!

 

[jake26]

I have not yet read TCoH but I have read Tolkien's LoTR series about 5X, stuggled through the Samarilian (sp?) and loved the movies. What bothers me about the 'high fantasy' style is how difficult it is to read. I lost track of so many details in the Samarilian because every place had 4 names and the detail seemed to be filler in many ways. So many people (Elves mostly) were mentioned once and had names so simular such as Glorfindel of Gondolin or Galadhrial of the Galadherim.

Anyhoo ... the LoTR trilogy does not read nearly as difficultly and is far more 'realistic' than the other stories such as the two trees and how they were distroyed by Ungolant.

I would love to see a story or movie about the Age of Numenor, the forging of the great rings and the Final Alliance of the great Kingdoms of Men and Elves. It was always sad reading how the elves were leaving Middle Earth since they were it's greatest race. I also wish the LoTR Online game was in the second age. How cool would that be?

 

[carbo-fation]

I have not yet read TCoH but I have read Tolkien's LoTR series about 5X, stuggled through the Samarilian (sp?) and loved the movies. What bothers me about the 'high fantasy' style is how difficult it is to read. I lost track of so many details in the Samarilian because every place had 4 names and the detail seemed to be filler in many ways. So many people (Elves mostly) were mentioned once and had names so simular such as Glorfindel of Gondolin or Galadhrial of the Galadherim.

I loved reading the Silmarillon and I read it like a history book. After every couple of chapters, I would look at the map and try to see where everything was taking place and who was who's son/daughter/cousing, etc. That was one of the best parts, for me at least, about the Silmarillon. I loved the beginning of the book and how Eru's melody created Arda. I thought that was just brilliant and beautiful at the same time.
I wish that someone would one day make a movie about Beren and Luthien, Turin Turambar and Tuor of Gonodlin. All three would make wonderful movies.

 

[Captain Faramir]

I'm in the same boat; I love The Silmarillion because of all the details and the masterful interplay of names, tales, and events. The incredible scope of the stories sets it apart from LOTR but still maintains the beautiful feeling of Middle Earth. I try to read it as Tolkien intended it to be; that is, the history and mythology to which the peoples of the Third Age looked. It is the past, the youth, and the beginning of Middle Earth, and some, such as Galadriel and Cirdan, are forever defined by what they endured in those times. I could never fully enjoy the majesty of The Lord of the Rings without the essential companion that is The Silmarillion.

That's one reason I want to read The Children of Hurin so much; it's a beautiful chapter of The Silmarillion that adds depth and humanity to the world of Men which is sometimes lost in the Elvish lore in The Silmarillion. I can't wait to read it.

 

[gtb]

After much searching through the Wikipedia, manage to find some head of tails of the names of places/people/race etc.

Those who are well-versed in the Lores of Middle-Earth may like to share their knowledge for some of my confusion below:

1. Are the following places shown in the map included in the CoH? If not, are they in Silmarillion? [Since there is no arrows stating the direction, do I assume that the top of the page as we read it is North??]

a. Ered Luin and Ered Lindon (West of Blue Moutains)
b. Blue mountains range itself
c. Thangorodrim - where Angband is found.
d. Cuiviénen (Water of Awakening) from the Elves comes from. In Valinor?
e. Aman vs Valinor. Which place is in which? Seemed to me they refer to the same place?
f. Is the Sindarin name "Ere Wethrin" for the Mountains of Shadows printed in the map in CoH. I hope this is not a printing error. CT has sometimes include the Sindarin name but sometimes it is not there.

2. On page 17, Para 3, Line 4, the word "Vala" refers to "Valar" too? Never heard of Vala before? Is it a printing error or is it a singular/plural thing? According to Wikipedia (which I was told is not 100% accurate), Vala is the singular for Valar, so there shouldn't be ValarS right? As such how come, it is refer to as "Vala Oromë" I thought he is a ONE person?

3. Are there any reference to the names "Tinúviel" and "Luthien" as being Sindarin and English? or is it like First name and Last name of the person?

4. Since Sindarin is the more common form of Elvish spoken in the Third Age (I got this from Wikipedia again), I thought all the Elven names will be Quenya instead….Is there any way to recognize which is which by pure looking? So I supposed all the names used in the CoH are Sindarin?

 

[Corwin]

After much searching through the Wikipedia, manage to find some head of tails of the names of places/people/race etc.

Those who are well-versed in the Lores of Middle-Earth may like to share their knowledge for some of my confusion below:

1. Are the following places shown in the map included in the CoH? If not, are they in Silmarillion? [Since there is no arrows stating the direction, do I assume that the top of the page as we read it is North??]

a. Ered Luin and Ered Lindon (West of Blue Moutains)
b. Blue mountains range itself
c. Thangorodrim - where Angband is found.
d. Cuiviénen (Water of Awakening) from the Elves comes from. In Valinor?
e. Aman vs Valinor. Which place is in which? Seemed to me they refer to the same place?
f. Is the Sindarin name "Ere Wethrin" for the Mountains of Shadows printed in the map in CoH. I hope this is not a printing error. CT has sometimes include the Sindarin name but sometimes it is not there.

2. On page 17, Para 3, Line 4, the word "Vala" refers to "Valar" too? Never heard of Vala before? Is it a printing error or is it a singular/plural thing? According to Wikipedia (which I was told is not 100% accurate), Vala is the singular for Valar, so there shouldn't be ValarS right? As such how come, it is refer to as "Vala Oromë" I thought he is a ONE person?

3. Are there any reference to the names "Tinúviel" and "Luthien" as being Sindarin and English? or is it like First name and Last name of the person?

4. Since Sindarin is the more common form of Elvish spoken in the Third Age (I got this from Wikipedia again), I thought all the Elven names will be Quenya instead….Is there any way to recognize which is which by pure looking? So I supposed all the names used in the CoH are Sindarin?

1. a and b
See right side of this map
www.lord-of-the-rings.org/collections/maps/map2[1].jpg

This is the map of Beleriand and surounding lands from the Sil, the one in CoH was redrawn (i think) and only shows those parts of Beleriand that are mentioned in CoH.

EDIT
The end of the URL keeps getting cut off
It's the 2nd last map on this page
https://www.lord-of-the-rings.org/collections/maps.html

The Blue Mountians can also be seen at the far north west of the Middle Earth map given in LotR.


Beleriand if you did not know existed to the west of what would later be The Shire.

c. Thangorodrim - where Angband is found.

To the North of Beleriand though never shown on any offcial map AFAIK

d. Cuiviénen

This was far to the East of the lands shown on the usual LotR Middle Earth map, again AFAIK never shown on any official map.

The Elves travelled from Cuiviénen towards the West when summoned by the Valar but many gave up the journey and settled down in Middle Earth (the Silvan elves of Mirkwood/Greenwood being an example).

e. Aman is the continent in which Valinor is a country (I think)

f. For some reason only the English name is used on the CoH map, as you can see on the map linked above Ered Wethrin is used.

2. As you've read, Vala is indeed the singular of Valar.

3. As with many Tolkien characters she has more than one name. Luthien is what her parents called her, Tinúviel is the name Beren gave her when they first met.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BAthien

The name Lúthien appears to mean "enchantress" in a Beleriandic dialect of Sindarin, but it can also be translated "blossom".[1] Tinúviel was a name given to her by Beren. It literally means "daughter of the starry twilight", which signifies "Nightingale". She is described as the Morning Star of the Elves, while Arwen is called Evenstar, the Evening Star.

 

[Daveyjaro]

4. Since Sindarin is the more common form of Elvish spoken in the Third Age (I got this from Wikipedia again), I thought all the Elven names will be Quenya instead….Is there any way to recognize which is which by pure looking? So I supposed all the names used in the CoH are Sindarin?

Most are in Sindarin. Quenya is more like our Latin. Most of the names and places are in Sindarin. They are distinct languages and are based on Welsh and Finnish I believe. I think Sindarin has many "n" and "th" words and Quenya has many vowels. If you see the double period above the vowel, it is Quenya. Some of the Elves have Sindarin and Quenya. The lord of doriath, Thingol means "Greycloak" in Sindarin. He is also know as Elwe. Turin is Quenya.

If you want great written references to help with Silmarillion and Children of Turin I recommend Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth and Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth.

I used to be really into the languages. For anyone interested here is a link to a poem I wrote in Quenya.

Tindome

 

[Captain Faramir]

Wow, I've never even noticed you here before! I wish I could get some more Elvish down. I did notice at first glace the words of Elendil in your signature (of course repeated at Elessar's coronation--kind of strange that I recognized it so instantly heh heh heh). Glad we have an Elvish scholar here!

 

[Daveyjaro]

Hi Captain Faramir, Well, haven't been on the board very much lately so that is why you haven't heard much from me. Yes, it was awesome when Aragorn sung that line in ROTK, I recognized it right away. That was one of my favorite scenes. That is Quenya of course. I think it was great that throughout the entire trilogy of films much Elvish was spoken.

Namarie!