Amazon LOTR

[Wor-Gar]

The history of Middle Earth repeats itself.

 

[jye4ever]

The history of Middle Earth repeats itself.

Then again so does everything else which emanates from the original 7 human stories since the creation of the species.

It’s just that Amazon is paying 1 billion to repeat them so that I buy more toilet paper which should always be the foundation from where good stories come from lol

 

[ZE_501]

The history of Middle Earth repeats itself.

This has all happened before ...

Wait so before Sauron was an evil entity who commanded orcs he was once a person in an army who also commanded orcs.

Hmm doesn’t sound that much different than LOTR to me lol

Ok ok I kid hopefully it will all seem fresh and unique and not just a rehash of what we got cinematically already.

Imagine spending 500 million just to tell the same story again lol

Sauron was very bad news, but (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's been many years) ... Morgoth was basically Lucifer. When Eru Ilúvatar was conducting the heavenly music with the Valar that was bringing all of creation into being, it was perfect, but Morgoth was jealous or some such and introduced discord into what would have been perfection.

It's hinted at (or said outright somewhere) that even Morgoth's shenanigans were part of The Plan.

If it sounds very Christian that was Tolkien for you.

So that first age was literally gods and monsters, with the events of LOTR being a mere shadow of what came before. I believe some things went down that literally cracked the world unless I'm conflating that memory with the Cataclysm in the Dragonlance Chronicles ...

 

[Wor-Gar]

Its all based/inspired by many cultures going back as far as Sumerian myth and more I would imagine. Ancient histories and religions all have similarities.

 

[jye4ever]

Crom-Gar

 

[ZE_501]

Its all based/inspired by many cultures going back as far as Sumerian myth and more I would imagine. Ancient histories and religions all have similarities.

As a scholar I suppose he would have been well-versed in such things, but as a devout Catholic his faith informed every aspect of his life. Beowulf was a huge influence, too.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Crom-Gar

Then to Hell with me.

 

[RandomHero]

To ZE_501's point, the War of the Ring was basically child's play compared to the War of Wrath, the War of the Jewels, and the War of the Last Alliance. Morgoth's army would cleaned up Sauron's army in the Third Age in a matter of hours.

Morgoth was pure evil. He was the the most power Valar created by Eru (God) and rebelled against Eru solely because he could. He attempted to consume the world in darkness by destroying the Trees of Valinor which were the source of light in the world. If I remember correctly, they took seeds from the ashes and the gold tree became the sun, and the silver tree became the moon.

I definitely wouldn't take the stories of the First and Second Ages as repeats of the Third. If anything, the Third Age is the least interesting, even though it's the most fleshed out in text.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Chaos/Serpent/Tiamant/Satan... Morgoth. It all sounds so familiar.

That's what makes it relatable -- far away lands and times yet familiar. Star Wars works the same way.

 

[lordnastrond]

Actually I think a story pitched in this period, with the right direction, could strike very differently thematically from LOTR.

LOTR is the valiant last stand of good versus evil, though there are some temptations and a few turncoats, on the whole both men and elves (and hobbits) in LOTR are good and noble.
Likewise the evil they face is absolute and undisguised, the most insidious agent of evil in LOTR is arguably the Ring itself, which is capable of swaying the hearts of the heroes and turning them against one another from within (Boromir). But this influence is external and acts from a commentary on the fallibility of all peoples, rather than serving as a genuine display of moral decay. People are tempted by the Ring, by they infrequently fall to it. Aside from the Ring though, and the surprise of Saruman's betrayal, the forces of evil are obviously evil - orcs, balrogs, nazgul, spiders etc.

In the period this series is supposedly going to be set in (depending on the years - before and after the War between the Elves and Sauron) Sauron isn't sending out apocalyptic armies and marching to battle as a 10ft tall armored abomination... he is playing the role of the seducer and takes advantage of the flaws within the societies of the Free Peoples to achieve, arguably, some of his greatest successes - the forging of the Rings and the fall of Numenor (and making the Valar collectively **** their pants when Ar-Pharazon's fleet arrive off the shores of Valinor to the point they call their daddy to pick them up)

Sauron in his role as Annatar (in his dealings with Celebrimbor) and Tar-Mairon (in his role as captive/prize turned chief-advisor/high-priest of Numenor) relies on the flaws and inner corruption of his targets. He doesn't make the Numenoreans evil, he just gives them the excuse to unleash the evil already present in their society (colonisation, slavery, racism, horrific class divides etc.), he doesn't use magic to make them perform depraved acts and human sacrifice - they do it themselves of their own accord. Eru decides to wipe Numenor from the map for good reason, the atrocities they descended into are enough so that God felt the need to wipe their evil from the Earth - like the Antediluvian world of Christian mythology.
Likewise, Celebrimbor allows his desire for greater knowledge to blind him to the counsel of his peers, and possibility his own misgivings, about the danger of working with this strange unknown "spirit of Aule". Sauron makes use of Celebrimbor's good intentions (We know where those lead) and his craftsman's zeal/pride in order to make a dangerous tools which he knows could be twisted into evil means,

in LOTR the threats are eternal and existential, in this the threats could also be internal and moral.
If LOTR is about the inherent goodness of people triumphing over evil, then the story of the Second Age, right up to Isildur's refusal to destroy the Ring, is that the world and its people are all too easily corruptible and the evils they commit can have horrific consequences and be beyond forgiveness (even by a higher power).

That goes without mentioning Sauron himself, who is at an interesting point for his character in this period.......

 

[lordnastrond]

Following the War of Wrath Sauron is genuinely remorseful of his actions in service of Morgoth, though he is too afraid of punishment and submission to bring himself before the Valar and their Ring of Doom. Tolkien has written that it is Sauron's obsessive desire for order and perfection that drove him towards evil (rather than inherent corruption as he did not join with Melkor's discord in The Music) and in many ways saw his own actions in the Second and Third Ages of Middle Earth as his own road redemption, his "making it good" after the evil he perpetrated as Morgoth's prime lieutenant.

I'm going to quote an excellent summary of the more subtle nuance's of Sauron's character from the Tolkien Forum posted by Aredheldaedraugh

"For me, Sauron is one of the characters most fascinating „Wiser than Morgoth, not a beginner of discord, probably knowing more of the music than did Melkor“ P. 395 Morgoth’s Ring.

He is absolutely not one-sided and
he wasn’t fallen from the beginning.
In Morgoth’s Ring It is pointed out that Sauron has followed Morgoth because of admiration and kind of love for such a Valar.
According to Morgoth’s Ring he even lied to himself concerning Melkor.

His love of control and order, in the beginning a virtue, became his flaw. He isn’t the kind of "whhhhoooooaaaa“ villain as he appears in the films. Also interesting that Sauron really thought he makes the right things because he thought Eru had abandoned Arda and he, as the only remaining Maia/ angelic power on middle earth, has now to control, order and plan everything. Morgoth’s Ring Text VII P. 398 "Sauron unlike Morgoth would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects“ and "he deluded himself with the notion that the Valar having failed and Eru had abandoned Arda“. Morgoth and Sauron in the Silmarillion are the epitome of evil.
But I m fascinated that Sauron himself not only doesn’t see himself as such but he thinks himself as "good“, doing excactly what he was created for. According to Morgoth’s Ring he thought the Istari “as ambassadors of the Valar only to colonize Middle earth to establish their lost power“ in Middle Earth "as a mere effort of defeated imperialists without knowledge and sanction of Eru“. (P.397 Morgoth’s Ring). I think the fall of this Maia is absolutely tragic because in the beginning he had good intentions. Tolkien Shows how good intentions can become monstrous."

I will elaborate on some of the above: in that Sauron as the only major divine power left in Middle Earth in this period not only has the power to order Middle Earth following the chaos of the War of Wrath, the "abandonment" of the Ainur and the sinking of the continent of Beleriand - but to a degree he sees it as his duty to do so. As the Shadow of War game puts it (quite nicely in my opinion) he sees himself as "one Dark Lord trying to fix the mistakes of another".
It is Sauron's very virtues that drive him towards evil, his mind so warped by a desire to restore order, to "perfect" Middle Earth that he will do monstrous things in order to seize the control (the dominion) needed to enact it. This is the very reason he forged the Rings of Power to control their wielders through The One and through them govern (in his opinion wisely and justly) Middle Earth (and he would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for that meddling Celebrimbor and him making secret rings for those Elves!).
I for one would love to see these more subtle shades of Sauron's character that really demonstrate the differences between him and Morgoth, after-all understanding what drives him needn't (and shouldn't) make him any less of a villain or a Dark Lord or any less absolutely evil, it just makes him more of a complicated and compelling character... a sophisticated monster.

 

[jye4ever]

Then to Hell with me.

Holy crap I lol in the middle of my party lol

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

Wait so before Sauron was an evil entity who commanded orcs he was once a person in an army who also commanded orcs.

Hmm doesn’t sound that much different than LOTR to me lol

Ok ok I kid hopefully it will all seem fresh and unique and not just a rehash of what we got cinematically already.

Imagine spending 500 million just to tell the same story again lol

I'm looking at YOU Disney Star wars!!!

 

[DakRen]

As a scholar I suppose he would have been well-versed in such things, but as a devout Catholic his faith informed every aspect of his life. Beowulf was a huge influence, too.

And the Norse epics like Prode Edda and the Kalavala. I happen to think the Noldor arriving in Beleriand under the stars and fighting wars only to later be usurped/replaced by younger races is heavily influenced by the Tuatha de Danann and the Celtic Invasion/Mythological cycles.

“The Tuatha De Danann are semi divine beings that came to Ireland by ships and inhabited the country before the native Irish.”

Very similar to the Noldor in swan ships arriving in Beleriand before the birth and migration of Men.

“They came to Ireland to take the land from the Fir Bolgs that had already been residing in the north of Ireland at the time.”

Fir Bolgs sound like Orcs and they come from the north of the land and north of Beleriand is Angband the domain of Morgoth.

“The Tuatha were immediately perceived as gods for their superior skills: various arts of druidry, magic, prophecy and history.”

The Eldar were originally mistaken for divine when Finrod played his harp over the sleeping Edain who migrated to Beleriand. Their abilities and skills are from Aman and the direct tutelage of the Ainur. Their “magic” is their creative power of nature and the unseen such as Finrod’s song of sorcery/power against Sauron at Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion. Their history is much richer since they lived immortal lives and during the Years of the Trees before the rising of the Sun. The most gifted Eldar had the abilities of foresight and osanwë (speaking at distance with your mind).

“Their leader was named Nuada. He led them to war against the Fir Bolgs around the west shore of Ireland, where the Tuatha had arrived by ship. Many of the Tuatha died in this war, but thousands of Fir Bolgs died. Including their leader, Eochai Mac Erc.”

The Noldor under Fingolfin and then his son Fingon waged war against the orcs and the servants of Morgoth. The kingdom of Fingolfin was in the west of Beleriand in Hithlum. Many Noldor perished during the wars of Beleriand but possibly millions of orcs also were slain. Eventually, the High-kings of Noldor are defeated and killed in battle.

“They come from another world, but reside in Ireland until they were pushed out by war with a semi-demonic race called the Fomorians. Their king is known in the mythology as Balor.”

The Noldor come from Valinor, which may as well be separated from the rest of the mortal world of Arda. This especially becomes true when the world is remade into a sphere and no longer flat and the road is now lost to Aman except the wisest Eldar like Cirdan who know the straight road.

The Noldor eventually become smaller and smaller over the ages due to war. This culminates in the War of the Elves and Sauron and finally the Last Alliance. The battles leave the Noldor nearly broken and scattered and begins the long process of them leaving Middle-earth throughout the Third Age. This is all caused by Sauron (except the fading which is accelerated due to Morgoth having corrupted Arda with his malice).

“The Fomorians resided on the outskirts of Ireland. When the Tuatha were defeated in battle against the Milesians, they were forced to live underground in the Sidhes.”

As the Eldar fade they become reduced to a rustic folk hiding in woods or caves, slowly to forget and be forgotten. Their bodies eventually consumed by their feä (spirits) if they do not depart to the uttermost west to Valinor in Aman.

 

[Coolest Board Name]

I can't unsee Director Krennic in that photo.

Free yourself !
Free yourself from that franchise whose name shall never been spoken again, despite the chapter you mention who was its last swan’s song. Free yourself from that which was the symbol of all what was loved and cherished in the land of geeks and nerds, and who in turn sold its soul to the darkest forces of evil. Free yourself from what was once the greatest of all kingdoms , and who chosed to become the murkiest sh!tiest wokest ripoff money grab ever . Free your mind, cut that ball and chain and come back home to the one and only greatest saga of all time, and cast a dark spell against Kathlyn Kennedy while you’re at it.

 

[DioramaMaker]

Free yourself !
Free yourself from that franchise whose name shall never been spoken again, despite the chapter you mention who was its last swan’s song. Free yourself from that which was the symbol of all what was loved and cherished in the land of geeks and nerds, and who in turn sold its soul to the darkest forces of evil. Free yourself from what was once the greatest of all kingdoms , and who chosed to become the murkiest sh!tiest wokest ripoff money grab ever . Free your mind, cut that ball and chain and come back home to the one and only greatest saga of all time, and cast a dark spell against Kathlyn Kennedy while you’re at it.

Yeah um...so anyways Rogue One and Mando are pretty dang cool, ya dig?

 

[Coolest Board Name]

I dig, I dig. Kinda. Rogue One was before the ST disaster that was upon us, and I still really enjoy it now for what it is. I even have no problem with the CGed OT characters. And as of Mando, it is a pleasant time spent in front of a small screen, full of OT fan service (which I’m all for when it’s fun and done respectfully , unlike the total mess that TFA ended up being for me). It is done as an homage to vintage Star Wars of the past. But I totally disliked the fact he took off his helmet though, I didn’t need to see him all teary eyed to know the badass bounty hunter has a heart, it is useless even though I know this was unavoidable. I also really really hated they intentionally gave credit to TROS by giving baby Yoda the force power to heal mortal wounds. That was totally there and only there to link with the ST and give more credit to it.
And the ST is the devil’s toilet bowl.
…Talk about thread derailing

 

[ialtaf]

A little history for you on this.

Before Sauron was the big bad of Middle Earth, he was a lieutenant in the army of Morgoth. The War of Wrath broke out - the largest and longest in the history of Middle Earth. Morgoth's army squared off against the Army of Valinor, which consisted of predominantly Elves, but also men, dwarves and eagles. Morgoth commanded balrogs, dragons, orcs and more. The Army of Valinor suffered incredible losses, but did entirely wipe out Morgoth's army, save for Sauron, one balrog and a handful of orcs that fled.

One of the commanders in the Army of Valinor was Earendil, who had recruited the Valar (gods) to help defeat and capture Morgoth. He had two sons, Elros and Elrond. The Valar allowed the two sons to choose what life they would lead - Elrond obviously chose the life of the Elves and Elros chose the life of men. As thanks for their help defeating Morgorth and as reparations for the massive destruction in the Middle Earth, the Valar created an island for Elros to settle, which would become Numenor.

Over the years, the Numenoreans would grow to resent the choice Elros made, craving immortality and power. They cut themselves off from the Elves and the Valar, except for a handful that included Elendil and his sons, Anarion and Isildur.

The King of Numenor captured Sauron and brought him to Numenor as his prisoner - which Sauron planned in order to corrupt the Numenoreans. Over time, it worked, as Sauron used the Numenoreans desire for immortality against them, and convinced them to turn on the Valar and worship Morgoth, the dark Valar. Eventually, he would convince them to launch an attack on the Undying Lands.

Isildur learned of this and disguised himself and entered the King's palace and cut a fruit from the White Tree, that had originally been brought from the Undying Lands (Valinor) when Numenor was first settled by Elros. He was beaten within an inch of his life, but escaped with the fruit. He remained in a comatose state for months until a seed from the fruit began to grow and Isildur was suddenly healed. That very sapling would lead to the White Tree of Gondor, the tree of the King.

Elendil and his followed packed up and left Numenor, with the sapling of the White Tree, the palantirs and several other treasures, just as the rest of Numenor planned to launch their attack on Valinor. They left on ten ships, Elendil landed north in Middle Earth, Isildur and Anarion landed south. They founded the kingdoms that Aragorn would reunite thousands of years later.

Meanwhile, as soon as the Numenorean army touched down on the Undying Lands, they were swiftly destroyed by Eru (God) and Numenor was sunk into the sea, with only the faithful followers led by Elendil spared to continue the line. With Numenor destroyed, the greatest line of men was gone, and Sauron began to work to conquer Middle Earth. Disguised as Annatar, he forged the Rings of Power, controlled by the One Ring. The Elves could not be corrupted by them, but the nine kings of men who accepted them became the Nazgul.

Eventually this would all lead to a showdown with the War of the Last Alliance that ended the second age.

Wow, this was so helpful in getting an insight into the second age. I've only seen the 6 movies and plan on reading the books one day. But this certainly was a very well written summary. Kudos and many thanks RandomHero!

 

[DakRen]

A little history for you on this.

Before Sauron was the big bad of Middle Earth, he was a lieutenant in the army of Morgoth. The War of Wrath broke out - the largest and longest in the history of Middle Earth. Morgoth's army squared off against the Army of Valinor, which consisted of predominantly Elves, but also men, dwarves and eagles. Morgoth commanded balrogs, dragons, orcs and more. The Army of Valinor suffered incredible losses, but did entirely wipe out Morgoth's army, save for Sauron, one balrog and a handful of orcs that fled.

One of the commanders in the Army of Valinor was Earendil, who had recruited the Valar (gods) to help defeat and capture Morgoth. He had two sons, Elros and Elrond. The Valar allowed the two sons to choose what life they would lead - Elrond obviously chose the life of the Elves and Elros chose the life of men. As thanks for their help defeating Morgorth and as reparations for the massive destruction in the Middle Earth, the Valar created an island for Elros to settle, which would become Numenor.

Over the years, the Numenoreans would grow to resent the choice Elros made, craving immortality and power. They cut themselves off from the Elves and the Valar, except for a handful that included Elendil and his sons, Anarion and Isildur.

The King of Numenor captured Sauron and brought him to Numenor as his prisoner - which Sauron planned in order to corrupt the Numenoreans. Over time, it worked, as Sauron used the Numenoreans desire for immortality against them, and convinced them to turn on the Valar and worship Morgoth, the dark Valar. Eventually, he would convince them to launch an attack on the Undying Lands.

Isildur learned of this and disguised himself and entered the King's palace and cut a fruit from the White Tree, that had originally been brought from the Undying Lands (Valinor) when Numenor was first settled by Elros. He was beaten within an inch of his life, but escaped with the fruit. He remained in a comatose state for months until a seed from the fruit began to grow and Isildur was suddenly healed. That very sapling would lead to the White Tree of Gondor, the tree of the King.

Elendil and his followed packed up and left Numenor, with the sapling of the White Tree, the palantirs and several other treasures, just as the rest of Numenor planned to launch their attack on Valinor. They left on ten ships, Elendil landed north in Middle Earth, Isildur and Anarion landed south. They founded the kingdoms that Aragorn would reunite thousands of years later.

Meanwhile, as soon as the Numenorean army touched down on the Undying Lands, they were swiftly destroyed by Eru (God) and Numenor was sunk into the sea, with only the faithful followers led by Elendil spared to continue the line. With Numenor destroyed, the greatest line of men was gone, and Sauron began to work to conquer Middle Earth. Disguised as Annatar, he forged the Rings of Power, controlled by the One Ring. The Elves could not be corrupted by them, but the nine kings of men who accepted them became the Nazgul.

Eventually this would all lead to a showdown with the War of the Last Alliance that ended the second age.

This is a good summary but the events aren’t chronological. If anyone is interested here’s a timeline of the Second Age:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline/Second_Age
But the major events are (in order):

1	Foundation of the Grey Havens, and of Lindon.

The Edain, and a few Drúedain, reach Númenor; Elros Tar-Minyatur becomes the first King of Númenor.

500	Sauron returns to Middle-earth in the East.

600	Captain of the King's Ships, Vëantur, makes the first Númenórean voyage back to Middle-earth. The Númenóreans meet Men of Eriador at Tower Hills.

750	Eregion is founded and construction on Ost-in-Edhil begins. Aldarion founds the Guild of Venturers.

1,200

Ereinion Gil-galad turns away Annatar; Númenóreansbegin to construct permanent havens.

1,350

After this time, Galadriel and Celeborn leave Eregion and go to Lothlórien.

1,500

The Rings of Power are forged; Sauron departs Eregion.

1,590

The Three Rings are forged.

1,600

The One Ring is forged; Barad-dûr completed; Sauronopenly proclaims himself; Glorfindel, Rómestámo and Morinehtar come to Middle-earth.

1,693

The Three Rings are hidden; War of the Elves and Sauronbegins.

1,697

Sack of Eregion; Death of Celebrimbor; Rivendellfounded; Dwarves assail Sauron from behind; Khazad-dûm closes.

1700	Defeat of Sauron by the Númenóreans under King's Heir Minastir.

3,255 3,262

Death of Tar-Palantir; Ar-Pharazôn seizes the Sceptre. Sauron taken to Númenor as prisoner.

3,319

Downfall of Númenor; Changing of the World; Deaths of Ar-Pharazôn and Míriel.

3,320

Arnor and Gondor founded.

3,431

Last Alliance marches to Imladris.

3,434

Battle of Dagorlad; Siege of Barad-dûr; deaths of Kings Oropher and Amdir

3,441

Deaths of Ereinion Gil-galad and Elendil; defeat of Sauron

 

[DakRen]

“With Numenor destroyed, the greatest line of men was gone, and Sauron began to work to conquer Middle Earth. Disguised as Annatar, he forged the Rings of Power, controlled by the One Ring. The Elves could not be corrupted by them, but the nine kings of men who accepted them became the Nazgul.”

This part has the most problems because Sauron was disguised as Annatar in around the year 1300 over a thousand years before Numenor was destroyed in 3319. Sauron had conquered most of Middle-earth by 1699. The Numenoreans joined with Gil-galad’s and Elrond’s armies to drive out Sauron in 1700.

Sauron was later taken as prisoner to Numenor in 3262 by Ar-Pharazon because Sauron had claimed himself to be King of Men and this angered Ar-Pharazon who brought his entire fleet to Middle-earth. Sauron over the next century corrupted Ar-Pharazon and most of the Numenoreans leading to their destruction by divine intervention in 3319. Finally, in 3430 the Last Alliance is formed to destroy Sauron once and for all in Mordor by High-king Gil-galad and the Exile King Elendil (who founded Arnor and Gondor with the remnant Numenoreans).

Also, just a reminder that the Rings of Power were all forged in Eregion by Elves under Celebrimbor except the One Ring made by Sauron in Mount Doom. The Elves didn’t plan to distribute the rings except King Durin and his descendants claim Celebrimbor gave a ring to them. The rings were only distributed after Sauron sacked Eregion, stole them and saw the Elves were no longer useful to him. Indeed they had already been manipulated to making the rings and had played their part. He demanded the rings be given to him, when they refused he declared war which begin the War of the Elves and Sauron.

Sauron’s plan was to use the Elves to conquer Middle-earth. When he forged the One Ring to rule the others he had to place more of his innate creative power because the Elves were stronger than he anticipated. But when Gil-galad and Galadriel wore them for the first time they saw Sauron’s intentions and with their willpower removed them before he could dominate their minds. Sauron saw this as a personal betrayal because not only had he planned this for a thousand years, Three rings were made without his knowledge and his plan had failed despite investing so much of himself into the One Ring.

The only “good rings” were the Three that Celebrimbor made after Annatar left and wasn’t supervising the project. These rings were pure and had the best intentions to heal and preserve. These rings Sauron never claimed and were given to Galadriel and Gil-galad by Celebrimbor before Sauron sacked Eregion. Galadriel would always keep her ring Nenya, Elrond inherited his ring Vilya when Gil-galad died and Narya was held by Cirdan until he gave his ring to Gandalf in the Third Age.