1/6 Yoda

[bluesparrow]

Okay, I'll explain why Yoda should not cost the same as a 12" figure. I'll use another company as an example.

SOTA can afford to make highly articulated figures in 6" scale, with a brand new sculpt that they never reuse, in a sub-10,000 figure run, and sell it for $12-15. Including license fees. They make money doing this - though that's hovering above their break-even point(which I believe is 7500 pieces). Their products are not below Sideshow quality, in some respects they are better quality(as much as you can compare the two different kinds of figures).

A Yoda figure would be 4 1/3 inches and hopefully have similar articulation. Yes plastic doesn't cost *that* much but it is a factor. Odds are he'd have a run of about 10,000 pieces - that's assuming they don't do Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy versions, in which they'd use the same body for both, and spread that cost over 20,000 pieces.

There is zero reason why SOTA can do this and Sideshow cannot. I'll grant the Star Wars license and soft goods would add to the cost. Let's be extremely generous and add $10 to the cost of the higher end of a SOTA figure's price scale, making it $25.

If Sideshow cannot afford to make a 4 1/3" fully articulated figure and be profitable at $25-30, I don't see how they can be profitable at any level. Any other toy company could take these specs: a brand new sculpt of a 4" figure with cloth goods and a non-reusable body mold at this level of production and be into profit with a $25 figure. Any single one.

Charging $50 for Yoda - yeah a lot of people would pay that. It doesn't make it a fair deal. And I don't believe that's what they're going to charge.

 

[Darklord Dave]

I think a 10K edition size is out of the question given what we've seen with Luke and (probably) Anakin. So the development costs must be spread across a smaller figure run. I think that the anticipation by collectors of a $25-30 Yoda will keep them from even attempting to development this character.

 

[JustinLuck]

Who says collectors are anticipating a 30 - 40 dollar figure? Many people are expecting top notch quality and are willing to pay for it. Last time I checked, most people, even vaguely aware of Star Wars, know of Yoda! He is arguably just as iconic as Vader! I have friends who have never watched Star Wars, but instantly recognize Yoda, but not Luke... My feeling is Yoda will sell in droves, no matter what the price.

 

[bluesparrow]

I believe in paying well for top notch quality - I don't mind the extra cost of these Star Wars figures so far - the Luke and Anakin seem well worth it. But I don't believe in overpaying for top notch quality. $50 for a 4" figure would be outrageous. The day Sideshow offers a 4" figure at that price watch the toy community boil over.

Which isn't the end of the world or anything, but bad vibes like that tend to build up over time.

 

[JustinLuck]

Bluesparrow, I understand where you are coming from. But it is not just the amount of plastic or fabric used. Sideshow will have to make an entirely new articulated body. If Luke and Anakin needed new bodies, I'm sure they would cost much more than $50. It is because the human figures use pre-designed bodies is why they can keep the cost lower. At least that is what I understood from Sideshow's initial interviews concerning the Star Wars line.

 

[pitchin]

Yoda will happen now...same body for yoda, the hobbits & the dwarves

 

[bluesparrow]

Bluesparrow, I understand where you are coming from. But it is not just the amount of plastic or fabric used. Sideshow will have to make an entirely new articulated body. If Luke and Anakin needed new bodies, I'm sure they would cost much more than $50. It is because the human figures use pre-designed bodies is why they can keep the cost lower. At least that is what I understood from Sideshow's initial interviews concerning the Star Wars line.

Well, like I explained before,other companies can do a brand new highly articulated 6" sculpt and sell it for under $20 with similar production numbers, certainly Sideshow can be into profit on a $30 Yoda.

If they sold 8,000 Yodas at $25 that's $200,000. Tooling to make a 4" figure with 30 POA(which it probably wouldn't have - Yoda'll probably 18 poa just due to his size) is expensive but does not cost anywhere near that amount. Taking into account they can sell two different Yodas(OT and PT) that number becomes $400,000. They can afford to do it.

Sideshow's lines for the most part only make economic sense when they reuse bodies. But those are the 1000 figure run lines, not a line like Star Wars with runs around 8,000. They're making a huge windfall from this line by reusing bodies and charging more - I don't doubt they have to pay a heavier license fee and the accessories and costumes are more elaborate, but I think they could've probably afforded to NOT raise prices on the Luke and Anakin figures. But then their profit margin would be much lower - this isn't a case where they'd be *losing* money if they sold the figures for $40, I think. But they wouldn't be making as much as they normally do on a $40 figure.

Which is fair enough, they're in business to make money. But I don't think campaigning to pay *more* than a fair price(which is not $50 for a 4" figure, no way no how) is a good idea for the future of this line.

 

[JustinLuck]

The only reason I am OK with higher prices is because I don't want to see quality or features lost because of a price threshold. I've always been interested in Star Wars, but have never collected any figures before. So if Sideshow is the only company that is going to make 1/6 articulate figures, I would like to see it be done right the first time...which could be the only time... Sure, lower prices might still be profitable. I have no clue. But I don't want Sideshow saying "Oh, some potential customers don't want to spend very much, so we will just have to axe really cool features because we want to keep the same profit margin."

Wouldn't you rather pay more for a fully articulated figure than save a few bucks for a stiff armed and legged, swivel shouldered, swivel hipped one? That is what I'm afraid is going to happen to a custom bodied figure like Yoda. I REALLY hope they make a new body for him....along with 3-CPO, R2-D2, and Chewie. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if I'm going to display something, I want it to look as nice as possible. People say things like, "Save the fur for the PF Chewie". But I also like to pose figures to my liking (and change their pose every so often), so unfortunately, the PF line isn't an option for me. Money is not so much the issue. Articulation is.

 

[EVILFACE]

While SOTA makes some decent figures, they are not comparable to a Sideshow Toy collectible. While they make new figs, they are just sclupted bodys, they don't have any soft goods with them, belts, shoes ect. I still stand that I will pay 50 for a quality collectible 1/6th scale Yoda that is fully articulated and comes with plenty of accessories. I only picked up a few Hasbro ones because the quality was not there.

 

[Darklord Dave]

I also think the edition sizes for figures like Marvel Legends are so much greater than what SSC does that economies of scale set in.

 

[captain sack]

you could always do this......

 

[captain sack]

you could always do this......

i've also seen this done with a 6 inch spiderman figure.

maybe sideshow's yoda could be the hasbro yoda, but they include a old GI Joe 4 inch figure, a saw, and glue as accessories?

 

[Agent0028]

I feel pretty confident in saying if Sideshow does a Yoda it'll be done with the whole shabang, great articulation etc. Its one of the reasons Grievous has been ruled out as I recall, impossible to do him up to SS standards. As far as how much I'd be willing to pay for Yoda...I can't come up with a price right now, I'm gonna wait and see what the average price for these 12" seem to be and I'd go higher than that for Yoda. PT vs. OT Yoda will be my hardest decision...

 

[bluesparrow]

First of all, Dave(formatting it this way so I don't have to do a bunch of quotes) I never said they should be compared to Marvel Legends, obviously that's a mass market toy line with manufacturing runs in the hundreds of thousands. SOTA is not Toybiz. Their print runs, like Sideshow, are a 10th as much as a low run by Toybiz.


Secondly, Justin, I think I've explained several times why I believe Sideshow wouldn't need to limit articulation on Yoda, new sculpt or not. I can understand if you don't agree with me, but ignoring my arguments isn't helping you to make your point.


To Evilface, regardless of whether you call Sideshow figures "collectibles" and SOTA figures "toys"(which you didn't, but that seems to me your point) the quality of manufacture are not far apart at all. Same amount of articulation(unless you're talking about Now Playing, which is a very small part of their lineup). It seems to me to be a rather hollow distinction based solely on print run - Sideshow makes toys, they just find they sell more to adults by calling them "collectibles" - they're still toys, just collectible toys. I'd argue SOTA figures are collectibles too - they just don't number them.

Underneath Sideshow's cloth goods they are fairly simple hollow plastic toys. Same type of plastic everyone else uses, with the same kind of articulation and made at the same factories in China. Cloth goods are expensive - but cloth goods and accessories for Yoda will not cost *that* much above what it would cost to make the plastic figure underneath. Yoda's costume's hardly elaborate(simple outfit and robe), nor does he require that many accessories - his cane and lightsaber(depending on the version).


Frankly it seems to me that some of you are arguing that we should have to pay more just because it will have the Sideshow name on the box. Their quality is not so far above everyone else's that what others could sell for $25-30 should cost $50 from Sideshow. I've yet to hear a legitimate(to me, anyway) reason why $50 is a fair price for Yoda. If he came with his council chair, I'd think it was a fair price.

Also I don't think that's what they'll end up charging(unless they include the chair), I think there's a fair amount of assumption going that that'll be the price, but I think what'll end up happening is we'll see an $80 two pack with Yoda and say, Count Dooku or Mace Windu. Which imo would be an extremely reasonable price for both us and Sideshow.

I want to point out also that I'm not saying I would never ever pay $50 for a Yoda. I just would feel a little used if that's what he cost, unless Sideshow very clearly explained why he cost that much. I'm not balking at the price, but the justification of the price.

 

[FlyAndFight]

My initial Star Wars collection was the Hasbro 12" line and while many of their figures are abysmal, there are some amazing releases strewn inbetween. As previously stated, Hasbro's R2-D2 is beautiful and the only way Sideshow could raise the bar would be if their version was electronic and/or made of metal. Their Scout Trooper on Speederbike is a work of art and the Han on Taun-taun is amazing. So there are some diamonds within the pile of coals.

I've been collecting quality 12" figures from "the big 3" (Sideshow, Dragon and BBI) for several years now and find the three comparable in quality and detail levels.

With that being said, Dragon and BBI have been able to consistently release super-detailed figures, filled to the brim with extras such as cloth items and perfectly molded and detailed gear and continuously price them at $40.00 (MSRP). Sideshow's 12" Luke and Anakin have significantly less gear and are priced at least $10.00 more. Perhaps it's due to the lower ES, startup costs or Lucas' greed, but I honestly don't see the prices going down from here but rather only up.

I don't think a Sideshow Yoda will fall in the $30.00 range, simply because of the above mentioned reasons. But at the same time, I don't see Sideshow releasing Yoda "alone" and charging $50.00. While some of us can justify the expense, many more of us can't or simply won't. So a $50.00 Yoda would most probably come with some additional "items" to calm the frayed nerves and justify the $50.00 clams. Perhaps his Jedi Council chair would be thrown in, as previously mentioned as well.

Then again, I'm sure that Sideshow has done their homework and have figured out that fine line where supply meets demand, inregards to these figures, particularly a Yoda. I thought the Luke figure was moderately priced and winced at the price of the Anakin but still pre-ordered as well. But a $50+ Yoda would probably get passed unless he came with some significant extras.

 

[drbrad1975]

I would love to have a great 12" scale Yoda. I just wouldn't pay more than 50 bucks for one. That would be top dollar for a figure like that in my opinion. I will just have to wait and see what SSC comes up with.

Brad

 

[JustinLuck]

I suppose I should clarify the point I've been trying to make in my posts.

In one of the first Sideshow interviews, they shrugged off the idea of ever making Grievous because he might cost 3x the average price of a 1/6 figure. I don't see the problem with a 3x priced figure if the cost is justified. Grievous is certainly more detailed and more complicated to make than Luke or Anakin. It would be one thing if Sideshow raised the price on specific characters just to increase profits, but quite another if that extra money goes towards additional detail and realism.

Sideshow easily sells all of their SW PFs, even when they cost 5-8x as much as the 1/6 line. So I don't see why Sideshow would have a problem selling a more expensive 1/6 figure if that extra money went toward making the figure a reality. Especially true when Sideshow's ESs are always so low that the demand always outruns the supply.

Wouldn't you rather have a figure that costs a bit more than you'd like, but has top-notch quality, than to never have that figure made at all?

 

[FlyAndFight]

JustinLuck, I understand what you are saying and can sense your obvious passion with obtaining the best 1/6th scale Star Wars figure that money can buy. But I think you are missing the obvious point here. These are 12" action figures. They are not intricately sculpted statues. These are highly detailed dolls and I think that the majority of people here see them purely in that regard. I myself tend to view them as "posable statues", so share your view in that regard. But it's difficult to justify a higher price, regardless of the amount of R&D that goes into these pieces, simply because there already is an established 1/6th scale super-detailed action figure market and that market has for all practical purposes set a standard in pricing. (hence my reference to the Dragon, BBI and even Sideshow's previous 12" figure releases.)

It would be difficult to justify a huge price jump simply because we're now getting "Sideshow quality" as opposed to "Hasbro quality". The market won't stand for it.

A typical Dragon figure costs about $40.00. A special release, such as an anniversary or "Soldat" figure runs between $55-$70 dollars. These special releases are loaded with a ton of extras and amazing details, many pieces which may not be used again. These releases tend to be limited in number and not manufactured in the greater numbers found in a typical release. For Sideshow to come out with a 4 inch Yoda and charge $50.00 simply because it's coming from Sideshow is unfortunately not going fly. Perhaps it's the nievety of size=cost, but that's basically the bottom line with the majority of 12" figure collectors. Plus, there comes a point where a high costing 12" figure would be passed over for a more traditional "statue-like" piece, such as the PF line.

 

[Darklord Dave]

I think we may be beating this subject into the ground, but....

Just as you can't make sweeping assumptions about what price level the market place will bear, you can't compare Dragon and Sideshow. License costs are a huge portion the development expense for each figure. If Anakin is $55 for a figure that uses a standard body, then it stands to reason that it will cost more for a SW figure that doesn't use a standard body.

But the conversation is academic, as Tom stated that they recognize the perceived value of Yoda and have plans to make the perceived value equitable, most likely in a 2-pack.

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

In the end I think this debate about cost is moot simply because we're dealing with Star Wars fans, and they're a dedicated bunch to say the least. Sideshow could release just about any character and unless the price tag is just absolutely outrageous, like PF range, the fans are going to buy them.